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Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's a fantastic model in AoS, but in 40K those chariots just feel so out of place without some kind of ranged or sci-fi feel to them.

Demons summed up perfectly in a single sentence.

See I agree that there are specific models that don't feel like they fit; but demons as a concept are totally fine for me. 40K is already a muskets and spears kind of game functionally speaking. Demons aren't even the only close combat heavy army - Orks and Tyranids both thematically can run with heavy close combat and only light ranged support. Marines are often shown in battle in close combat and many famous take downs aren't ranged but one on one with power swords and hammers against demons and xenos.

Demons have a place in 40K, they just need some elements in their armies that make them visually feel it - a few techno demons in each army; more ranged options outside of magical attacks (and heck GW could go to town giving things like Tzeentch demons magical effects on their models to help reinforce that they are spell casting ranged units not just holding their arms in the air and such)

Quick aside but relevant to the discussion at hand as a conceptual example of design.

On Custodes: All the Custodes need for more is to convert forge world resin into plastic, worlds will open. Also remove transport restrictions for SoS and AC because they’re the Talons of the Emperor. More SoS units would also be great. A HS role unit would be great.

On Knights: Giving Knights infantry has the same problem as giving Marines a Basilisk. You ruin what makes each army special by watering down their specialties.

Even a pure ObSec use only unit would be a problem because A) they’ll never keep without a knight babying them and B) a good chunk of the reason War Dogs and Armigers exist is to be native ObSec units.

On units having Bows and Chariots in 40K: When something is made out of magic, whether it be space magic or fantasy magic, lots of things work that don’t otherwise.

Could they use some alternative cosmetics for 40K? I’m not against it, but Beast Snaggas make chariots and beast riders work fine. They just aren’t (completely) space magic so they need a bit of a tech bent.

Same goes for Krieg and Attlian Riders (especially since they don’t have any inherent magic to fall back on).

On Daemons: While Daemons are meant to be only part of an army:

A) an unscientific look at AoS makes them seem more like 1/3 to 1/2 of an army rather than a 1/4.

B) Expanding units is difficult because they have to not only fit in Sci-Fi and Fantasy but not have any heavy overlap between the units that exclusively exist in each.

With that said I think it’s the opposite of impossible to do. Daemons don’t need to stand on their own in larger games, they can already work for 500 point games. Greater Daemons means they can push to 1,000 point games fine as well. It’s past that the lack of options hurts.

Even then, there should be reasons to go mono-god or undivided.

First though, I have my own requirements on what makes a “complete army”.

Bare minimum; 1 option for all 6 basic roles - HQ, Troop, DedTrans, Elite, FA and HS. As well as 1 named character.

I make exceptions if the army works differently, like with Votann and their split FA DedTrans hybrid thing.

But that’s more of the initial launch. From there it needs to have one option in the other slots, LoW, Flyer, Fortification as well as a Supreme Commander.

So based on what they have, Nurgle needs a HS option, Tzeentch needs a Fort. They can forgo transports but all could use a flyer. Getting their LoW options out of Resin would be nice but their Greater Daemons already sort of work like those.

My ideal though, is my Rule of 3 Options - it comes from my personal observations that three is the minimum number for there to be the perception of “plenty of choices”.

All have well more than 3 HQs, but only Slaanesh has three options for FA. Otherwise they mostly have just 1. However, because they are part of other armies simply but carefully pushing to have 2 options for every slot is just fine.

Besides trying to increase to 2 slots, I’d also like to see 1 option in each of the basic slots for unique undivided daemons. For a second HQ, let Daemon Princes be undivided again.

Further, Daemon Engines are used by Daemons, Khorne has whole areas of his realm dedicated to building them. Different ones from Marines? Fine.

But Daemon Engines are literally just war machines possessed by a daemon. They’re a cross unit IMO the same way Princes are.

Ideas for Khorne: Go back to the idea that Khorne just wants his minions to be at risk when fighting. The whole reason that he hated psykers at one point is because they could just sit back without being in danger in battle. That’s why he supposed to be cool with stuff like the Skull Cannon.

His daemons don’t even have to be short ranged or anything only, they just need to not be able to sit back and accomplish anything.

A FA unit that requires Line of Sight and for the target to not have the benefit of cover (by terrain) is one thought. That would, perhaps, force them to be out in the open more.

What a about unique kind it priestly HQ that uses litanies to inspire effects that are, somehow, between typical priest effects and psychic powers.

Or an elite unique that gains powerful “shooting” tokene whenever a model dies within a very short range of them.

Nurgle: Perhaps a greater focus on artillery. Maybe an engine that’s a mini-catapult.

And a new daemon in the same vein as the old Plague Hulk, just not a rip off of the Soul Grinder. A damage soaker sounds nice.

Nurgle also has Plague Toads and Poxriders in his legends section I believe. That’s 4 ideas.

Tzeentch: Rules wise, I’ve always thought that Tzeentch flame weapons should be more about random effects than just being better flame weapons.

Unfortunately, nothings coming to me for daemons. Everything I can think is already done, or should be done, by another Tzeentchian unit. Or it ends being something that would fit better with another god.

I can only offer conceptual ideas for Thousand Sons that I’ve had.

Failed Aspirant: Elite, single model unit. Part psyker but part Rubric, modified by curses and hexes by full sorcerers. A sort of possessed.

Basically, when it dies it changes into another unit based on what killed it. A psychic power? A shooting unit. By a ranged weapon? Melee unit. By a melee attack? Psychic unit. Other, such as a stratagem? Roll a D3.

Terminator bodyguard: Enhanced look out sir and/or heroic intervention. Rather than a good melee unit, it can soak melee damage well (somehow, by some degree) and uses dual pistols instead of melee weapons. Maybe some sort of short range teleport?

Daemon Engine that’s a hybrid of a magic carpet and an Egyptian cultist boat. Serves as a flyer and a transport.

A Tzaangor HQ made from the normal Tzaangor infantry box. That way you can A) take Memegors in a fluffy unit of 9. And B) you can make a small Thousandgor list without an AoR.

EDIT: Of course the moment I’m about to submit I finally come up with an idea or two. Oh well, I leave the rest up.

Elite daemon engine: single model (initially) and about dreadnought sized in my imagination. It’s a melee unit with a “degrading” stat line BUT instead of getting weaker stats it instead splits, from 1 model to 3, and from 3 to 9 (each middle form splits into three if it falls into its lower of two brackets).

The first form is good at being an anti-vehicle unit in general. Second form anti-heavy infantry and light vehicle. Final form, anti-infantry. All forms are pure melee.

The second catch is that it has some amount of worse defensive stats for what it is but a greater amount of natural daemon engine healing. This healing will bring back fallen models if all current models have full wounds. Brought back models will only have however many wounds would be left to heal in total.

If there is still healing left and all models are present and in full health, it restored to the previous version or form.

The final catch is that this healing, IIRC, happens in the Command Phase. And the splitting only happens in this same Phase. So you make a split instead of healing if the wound bracket is lower than the current form.

This prevents the unit from being un-killable.

Also I’m certain there’s a shorter, more concise way of conveying all that. But I’m feeling like I’ve worked on this one comment enough.

Slaanesh: An elite unit that does “gun-fu”. Something alternates between pistols and melee combat but has to do it stylistically somehow. Channeling the Devil May Cry game series here.

An elixir cart that offers choosable buffs but is limited to how much it can doll out per turn.

Maybe a daemon engine that is some sort of stage? It can tie Slaanesh to the Aeldari, specifically Harlequinns, but rather than a play it’s a demented concert. Each instrument has a different kind of ranged attack.

I would like to see Furies get a decent kit again. If they hadn't constantly nerfed Daemonic infantry, I'd also lobby for weaker horde undivided foot-sloggers, but now every foot Daemon is a weak horde of foot-sloggers.

 vict0988 wrote:
Daemons shouldn't have bows, catapults, guns, vehicles or human-sized and shaped infantry or cavalry, it's too mundane. Expanding other options and phasing out the formerly mentioned types could take Daemons to a higher level.

why not? Theyre physical manifestation of the human psyche, makes sense to take from what humans know/use

I have no problem with beastmen wielding magical bows or mundane guns in 40k. But bows and guns are made in the physical realm and are thus not of the warp, by having Daemons wield human weapons and ride chariots and mounts like a human would they become too human-like for my personal taste.

 KidCthulhu wrote:
I would like to see Furies get a decent kit again. If they hadn't constantly nerfed Daemonic infantry, I'd also lobby for weaker horde undivided foot-sloggers, but now every foot Daemon is a weak horde of foot-sloggers.

I am guessing you haven't seen the stat profiles in the most recent codex? They're pretty insane. T5 and a weapon that equates to a power axe is not weak.

 vict0988 wrote:
I have no problem with beastmen wielding magical bows or mundane guns in 40k. But bows and guns are made in the physical realm and are thus not of the warp, by having Daemons wield human weapons and ride chariots and mounts like a human would they become too human-like for my personal taste.

 KidCthulhu wrote:
I would like to see Furies get a decent kit again. If they hadn't constantly nerfed Daemonic infantry, I'd also lobby for weaker horde undivided foot-sloggers, but now every foot Daemon is a weak horde of foot-sloggers.

I am guessing you haven't seen the stat profiles in the most recent codex? They're pretty insane. T5 and a weapon that equates to a power axe is not weak.

Daemons already use weapons and ride mounts, so it’s not really that far departure.
But I think you can daemonafy most things.
Daemonettes could have spine shooting magical crossbow like weapons, with a bonus of each one made from one of that Daemonettes favourite mortal. Nether with enough personal power to rise that mortal up to even a equal.

I just don’t think it’s that hard for GW to do interesting stuff, and I feel that chaos has been so flandarised that they need the expansion. The gods are supposed to be stepping on each other’s toes, and not stuck in there niche themes.
Demons themselves can make there engines of war from flesh and bone molded with souls and the energy of chaos!

I can't help but think that some of the issues with Daemons stretches as far back as the Realms of Chaos books - even back then, I'm pretty sure the generic Daemons for each God were written about, and there have been few new genus of Daemons since then. If the Daemons we've known and... "loved" for 30-40 years had been written about merely as the most common entities serving each God, instead of being the be-all-and-end-all for each God, there might be less resistance to introducing new Daemon types over time.

The other elephant in the room these days is the crossover between AOS and 40k. While I think that most generic Daemons should probably have a place in both worlds, I do like that we're starting to see examples of characters that only exist in one setting - with the Twins in AOS being spawned from a specific event in the recent past of that timeline, it would be very odd for them to then appear in 40k, for example. Equally, a character who ascends/descends to Daemon prince status in the "now" timeline of 40k might not have a place in AOS.

+ + +

Side note on my earlier comment about LOW entries in Daemon armies - I was working off the MFM as a source for that, and there are no entries in the Codex: Chaos Daemons section about LOW Greater Daemons. While I recently picked up the CD Codex, I've not yet had time to sit down and give it a good read. My bad.

 vict0988 wrote:
I have no problem with beastmen wielding magical bows or mundane guns in 40k. But bows and guns are made in the physical realm and are thus not of the warp, by having Daemons wield human weapons and ride chariots and mounts like a human would they become too human-like for my personal taste.

so are bloodletter/plaguebearer's swords too human-like for your taste?

 vict0988 wrote:

I am guessing you haven't seen the stat profiles in the most recent codex? They're pretty insane. T5 and a weapon that equates to a power axe is not weak.

T5 means nothing and their "power axe" (with no strength bonus) tickles anything that isnt chaff

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
I have no problem with beastmen wielding magical bows or mundane guns in 40k. But bows and guns are made in the physical realm and are thus not of the warp, by having Daemons wield human weapons and ride chariots and mounts like a human would they become too human-like for my personal taste.

so are bloodletter/plaguebearer's swords too human-like for your taste?

 vict0988 wrote:

I am guessing you haven't seen the stat profiles in the most recent codex? They're pretty insane. T5 and a weapon that equates to a power axe is not weak.

T5 means nothing and their "power axe" (with no strength bonus) tickles anything that isnt chaff

Yes, you're wrong about PBs.

 vict0988 wrote:

Yes, you're wrong about PBs.

well, if you're having success with them , good for you. I honestly think theyre the weakest of all 4 lesser demons and i think they reaaaaaaally need the -1 damage that was stripped off last minute from them (and all of nurgle really)

Personally, yes, I do think 40k needs more daemons.

Specifically, I second the notion that we need daemons with sci-fi daemon guns; that are distinct to 40k and separate from fantasy.


First off, there is no reason the daemons can't or shouldn't have ranged weapons: they control forges that make armor and weapons, and the Soul Grinder as is has guns on it. As far as I understand, the lack thereof is essentially just because the faction is cross-ported from fantasy and they haven't/don't want to add anything that can't go back across the line.

Second, mechanically, daemons are the only true melee army. Every other CQC army is distinguished by having the option to have good CQC troops, while the Shooting armies are distinguished by their lack thereof. Daemons, uniquely, have a list design paradigm where they can conceivable not have access to shooting at all. Giving them access to ranged troops would help ease the margins of game balance, and also make them more fun in general.

Finally, demons with demon guns are cool. The cyberdemon from Doom is cool. I want that.



I might propose that each god should have a Ranged Troop, a Ranged Elite/Midsize, and a Greater Daemon Gun Upgrade that may not require replacing their basic melee weapon, which should across them cover anti-infantry and anti-tank, and should be characterful for the god.



Like, maybe Khorne could have LMG infantry and maybe a pistolized artillery/battle cannon/demolisher [something that would have been S8+, AP3 or better, Large Blast] or a huge rotary cannon for the Bloodthirster's non-axe hand, to fit the theme of wanton carnage and collateral damage.

Slaanesh could have like maybe like high-tech looking Sniper Seekers and a Hypervelocity Gun like the Vanq or Railcannon to replace the Keeper's Claws, for a theme of precision and skill and grace

Nurgle could have like grenade launchers/knee mortars for the plaguebearers, and maybe a rocket battery or something for the Great Unclean One fitting with a siege/attrition theme and like "simple" weapons that can be made from a rusty piece of metal and some explosives.

Tzeentch already has shooting troops and elites and could use some melee troops and maybe an AT option for the Lord of Change.

Dudeface wrote:

If to take the Khorne Daemons and WE books and slap them together into "forces of Khorne" it fixes diversity issues with both parts into a greater whole. The same is true theoretically of the other gods.

The Mutalith apparently makes a Khorne monster and GW couldn't even bother to add it to the World Eaters codex LMAO

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

If to take the Khorne Daemons and WE books and slap them together into "forces of Khorne" it fixes diversity issues with both parts into a greater whole. The same is true theoretically of the other gods.

The Mutalith apparently makes a Khorne monster and GW couldn't even bother to add it to the World Eaters codex LMAO

Yes, the imaginatively named 'Slaughterbrute'. Would have been a nice change from various Eightbloodeners, Bloodeighters and Blood-blooders.

Back when it was released for 8E Warriors of Chaos, the Slaughterbrute was just a generic Chaos monster and was not explicitly Khornate. Funnily enough, neither was the Mutalith explicitly Tzeentch. Of course it's very easy to imagine something named 'Slaughterbrute' becoming rebranded and shoehorned into the WE Codex in the same manner.

Come to think of it, the Mutalith is the only kit I can think of from a modern multi-build GW kit where 1 build is supported in a game but the other is not. It is essentially the only kit that it is possible to build 'wrong', as far as I know.

I'm not a Daemon player, so this will be an outsider's perspective.

Daemons, at least to me, seem an odd army in general. They seem intended to work as a single force (you know, being in the same book and all), as they generally cover different bases and have different strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, the mechanics seem to discourage this, and the wildly different aesthetics make it very likely that players won't want to play with all the gods. I mean, in order to play all four, I would have to be a fan of:
- Green, bloated, plague-ridden models (Nurgle)
- Blue, warped, bird-like creatures (Tzeentch)
- Red, bloody, horned-devils (Khorne)
- Purple, half-boobed, bondage-fetishists (Slaanesh)

That's quite the range of models and themes.

I suppose, to me, it seems to make more sense how it's done in the AoS books - where all the Tzeentch units (both demon and mortal) are placed in the same book, all the Slaanesh units are placed in the same book etc. Otherwise, if the Daemons are going to all be lumped into the same book, there should probably be more encouragement to use them together as a cohesive force (so that you're not playing 1/4 of a codex).

 Overread wrote:
I fully agree though - no more leaders! GW has loaded up AoS with MASSES of leader models.

Yeah, it's more than a little weird that, say, Slaanesh has 50% more units in its HQ section than in the rest of its sections combined.

 Overread wrote:
I also think GW are breaking the AoS/40K reliance - AoS already has demonic leader models and infantry that don't cross over. There will still be cross overs and then there will be kits like the Prince that don't just cross over but have game specific optional parts.

Given how many kits are used in both games, it seems a shame that almost all of them are clearly made exclusively for AoS (or WHFB before it). Even if they don't get guns in 40k, it seems like they should have different armour or different styles of weapon or some other acknowledgement that the setting is entirely different.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Back when it was released for 8E Warriors of Chaos, the Slaughterbrute was just a generic Chaos monster and was not explicitly Khornate. Funnily enough, neither was the Mutalith explicitly Tzeentch. Of course it's very easy to imagine something named 'Slaughterbrute' becoming rebranded and shoehorned into the WE Codex in the same manner.

How are they treated today in AOS, out of interest?

@Overread - I'm aware of some Daemonic characters that don't cross over from AOS, but what daemonic infantry hasn't crossed over? The only one I can think of might be the Furies, but that could be due to them being Undivided - I can't think of a God-specific unit that doesn't appear in both.

My headcanon is that the warp is multi dimensional and they are the exact same daemons in all the settings and GW will not talk me out of it!

 Dysartes wrote:

How are they treated today in AOS, out of interest?

I don't play AoS but as far as I can tell from 1D4Chan, both units have ended up in the Slaves to Darkness book as Undivided by default. The Slaughterbrute can optionally gain the Khorne keyword, and the Mutalith can be Tzeentch.

So, Question: Were Furies really removed from the 9th edition Daemons Codex? I heard that, but I haven't really followed 40k since the abominable CSM codex.

On the AoS/40K/WHFB thing?

I kind of like it how it is. Good chunk is probably just my comfort zone, as Daemons now are now Daemons have been since I first got wind of Warhammer.

There’s something almost comfortingly archaic about them. They’re the demons Bosch. The trope they’ve always been outside of Warhammer to my eyes.

Them having anthropomorphic qualities has always been explained away by their form being informed by mortal legend and perception, with some crossover to the point it gets a bit Chicken and Egg (do Bloodletters look like Devils because humanity, or do human Devils look like Bloodletters and so on and so forth)

But I also agree the sheer insanity of Warhammer (as a whole!) is such it can easily accommodate Proper Bonkers Old Testament Description Of Angels daemons.

 Dysartes wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Back when it was released for 8E Warriors of Chaos, the Slaughterbrute was just a generic Chaos monster and was not explicitly Khornate. Funnily enough, neither was the Mutalith explicitly Tzeentch. Of course it's very easy to imagine something named 'Slaughterbrute' becoming rebranded and shoehorned into the WE Codex in the same manner.

How are they treated today in AOS, out of interest?

@Overread - I'm aware of some Daemonic characters that don't cross over from AOS, but what daemonic infantry hasn't crossed over? The only one I can think of might be the Furies, but that could be due to them being Undivided - I can't think of a God-specific unit that doesn't appear in both.

When I say demonic units that don't cross over to 40K I'm mostly talking about the mortal infantry which have been added to the AoS demonic armies. Blissbarb Seekers and the like which only appear in an army of Slaanesh. These are models that haven't made the jump. To me they say that GW is happy to have demon based models in AoS that don't jump to 40K. this opens the gates for expanding units in AoS. Perhaps Slaanesh gets a multi-winged flying serpent; perhaps Khorne gets some big bruising beast etc....

Meanwhile I'd hope that 40K might see similar things; a huge techo-raptor of the skies for Slaanesh etc....

Some might be combined kits like the Prince model, but others might just be unique ideas that fit the different sci-fi and fantasy settings.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
First off, there is no reason the daemons can't or shouldn't have ranged weapons

There absolutely is: demons are the incarnation of raw emotion, not a normal civilization. A Khorne demon isn't just a being that happens to have picked up a weapon and decided to fight, it is the purest expression of anger and bloodlust and desire to rip apart the enemy with teeth and claws, devour its flesh, and bathe in its hot blood. A Slaanesh demon doesn't use practical weapons to kill the enemy from miles away, it has a desperate need to flay the enemy alive, turn its enemy's bones into a harp strung with its own entrails, and drive everyone on the battlefield mad with sounds no mortal mind can comprehend. Etc. Demons want to make death personal and any conventional battlefield objective is a distant secondary concern compared to expressing those emotions.

This is why the best representation for demons, if they are to exist in 40k at all instead of being limited to a more appropriate setting in the horror genre, is to be summoned monsters for a conventional army of marines and cultists/traitors. Then all of the design space limitations on demons are fine, there are plenty of non-demon units that can cover all the necessary roles.

Blissbarb are Mortals though?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Blissbarb are Mortals though?

They are, I'm purely counting them as "demonic" because they are only accessible within a demonic army. They are part of the Hedonites of Slaanesh and they are riding huge exalted seeker demon mounts.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See, Chaos Daemons and their archetypes are so old, they pre-date 40K. And since their proper (wonderful) debut in the Realm of Chaos books? They’ve not really had much love.

Gnolls make good demons, and they pre-date, but not sure if there would be an IP conflict since they were Citadel before Games Workshop with TSR.

http://www.sodemons.com/rhadd/add2monsters/add55gnolls/index.htm
http://www.solegends.com/rsadd/add55/index.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citads1985b/198510/fly198510f-add-01.htm
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/ADD55_-_Gnolls

Pretty sure this was stated earlier in the thread, but personally I feel like daemons just "fit better" when they're rolled in with chaos marines/mortals. Slaanesh especially has a really organic fit (hehe) with the shooty noise marines complementing the stabby daemonettes. Tzeentch had a similar thing going on with elite, quality of shooting rubricae and objective camping pink/blue/brimstone horrors, although cultists and tzaangor arguably step on the toes of that particular combo. (I still love tzaangor though.)

Daemons as a standalone faction seems tricky to me. And that's speaking as someone with a small little Slaaneshi daemon army. Undivided, the army feels kind of samey and limited; too many unit strying to do the same basic job, and not much variety in how the army plays. So you see the army tend towards monobuild where people just take whatever units are best at a given job, and you see kind of meh army-wide mechanics like the warpstorm table where it's just "lolrandom" because the only thing uniting the army is "chaos."

Monogod armies tend to have a lot of overlap in what the cavalry/beast/troop units do, so again you end up with samey armies.

And both monogod and undivided armies feel weirdly limited in what they can do. I want to build thematic, dark fairy tale characters with flavorful abilities. I want units that represent every nook and cranny of a chaos god's portfolio. I want a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and weapons. But in practice, we don't really get any of that because the powers all boil down to one or two gimmicks of each god, the 'no model no rules" approach to the game means that your units will only ever have the weird anatomoy/powers that are included in the GW kits. Adding more kits would help with some of that, but I feel like I'd still end up wanting more.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So, Question: Were Furies really removed from the 9th edition Daemons Codex? I heard that, but I haven't really followed 40k since the abominable CSM codex.

yep, only codex to lose options and gain nothing in exchange

New thought occurs.

With Arks of Omen, what if Chaos is about to get a 5th Major God? Or indeed a pantheon of lesser, but growing, Gods?

The suggested flesh metal armed Daemons may have a more “natural” under Vashtorr?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New thought occurs.

With Arks of Omen, what if Chaos is about to get a 5th Major God? Or indeed a pantheon of lesser, but growing, Gods?

The suggested flesh metal armed Daemons may have a more “natural” under Vashtorr?

Meh, i'd rather they add stuff to existing gods

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New thought occurs.

With Arks of Omen, what if Chaos is about to get a 5th Major God? Or indeed a pantheon of lesser, but growing, Gods?

The suggested flesh metal armed Daemons may have a more “natural” under Vashtorr?

I can't see GW adding a 5th god.
At least not right now.

But I can see them steadily adding more demonsmith style units and perhaps creating that as a sub-army or even army in its own right. A counterpoint to Mechanicus.