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I'm pretty sure every unit with mixed Toughness in 9th has rules dictating how you resolve To Wound Rolls against that unit since it is not covered by the standard game rules.

So resolving an attack against a unit containing both T5/6+ and T4/4+ models isn't really any more difficult that resolving attacks against any other unit.

 alextroy wrote:
I'm pretty sure every unit with mixed Toughness in 9th has rules dictating how you resolve To Wound Rolls against that unit since it is not covered by the standard game rules.

So resolving an attack against a unit containing both T5/6+ and T4/4+ models isn't really any more difficult that resolving attacks against any other unit.

I literally can't think of any. Not Silent King. Not CSM Mutants. Not Dark Apostles. Not Helbrecht. Not Gaunt's Ghosts.

You're going to slow roll saves in some like Gaunt's Ghosts, but you can do that 3 or 4 at a time.

Tau Empire Drones are ignored for Toughness purposes, because of how wound rolls are made it's not a good idea to have mixed toughness values in any edition IMO. Increasing the Toughness characteristic must have been pretty useless in editions where characters joined units when the Toughness increase did not affect Instant Death, which I believe neither Bikes nor Mark of Nurgle did. Please correct me if I am wrong.

"A Character may be joined to a unit (that contains multiple models) if it finished its movement in coherency with it. When it does, use the defensive stats of the unit. When no models are left in the unit, the Character becomes its own unit. no more than one character can join a unit at a time."

something like that would be pretty simple i think, yeah sure. It would mean putting a low Toughness character in a high toughness unit would make the character tougher but i don't think thats too big of a problem if it means the game plays faster (no need to slow roll every time you shoot at one of these units)

 vict0988 wrote:
Increasing the Toughness characteristic must have been pretty useless in editions where characters joined units when the Toughness increase did not affect Instant Death, which I believe neither Bikes nor Mark of Nurgle did. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.

Certainly toughness used to affect the wound roll quite substantially. e.g. going from T5 to T6 would halve the chance of being wounded by both bolters and autocannons.

Beyond that, it was useful to have a naturally T5 Warboss in a unit of T4(5) bikers because he could tank S8-9 wounds without fear of Instant Death.

 vipoid wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Increasing the Toughness characteristic must have been pretty useless in editions where characters joined units when the Toughness increase did not affect Instant Death, which I believe neither Bikes nor Mark of Nurgle did. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.

Certainly toughness used to affect the wound roll quite substantially. e.g. going from T5 to T6 would halve the chance of being wounded by both bolters and autocannons.

Beyond that, it was useful to have a naturally T5 Warboss in a unit of T4(5) bikers because he could tank S8-9 wounds without fear of Instant Death.

If you shot 2 melta shots and 16 bolter shots at 3 unmarked Chaos Bikes and a Chaos Lord with MoN on bike IIRC then the MoN would have no effect and the Chaos Lord could be one-shot by one of the melta shots.

Spoletta wrote:
If you have a unit with mixed toughness and saves, you have to resolve the attacks one at a time because depending on which casualties are pulled, the majority save and toughness may change. Also, it allows a player to save on an high save and remove models with the bad save. Doesn't sound fair.

Then just add the following clauses:

1) All wounds for an attack are rolled at the majority toughness value for the unit.
2) Choose one model in the unit to make saves at the start of the attack before any rolls are made.
3) The model making saves takes the wounds for failed saves until it is removed.
4) Once the model taking saves is removed the defending player chooses the next model in the unit to take saves.

Simple, but I truly hope the eliminate all this roll one dice at a time stuff for unit rolls. I rather have divide attacks based on saves in some proportional manner and then apply the wounds appropriately than have the headache of rolling wounds one at a time.

 alextroy wrote:
Simple, but I truly hope the eliminate all this roll one dice at a time stuff for unit rolls.

As do I. There are plenty of ways to write the rules to speed up that part of the game and I hope GW embrace those.

Could you fix most these problems by having the attacking player pick wich model is hit? then once it's wounded all attack go to it untill it's dead. Maybe you can only hit leaders with persision or once the unit is dead or somthing?

Ideally, the process is a unit makes all its attacks at the same time, then the defender rolls all his defenses and takes off models as appropriate. This is only an issue when you have a unit with multiple saves to roll against. The question is how do you handle that with minimal disruption to the process?

I'm glad they are cutting down on rerolls and Oath of Moment looks fun and easy to use for Marine players.

Interested to see where they go with characters and leading units. I vastly preferred Independent characters joining another unit, and would rather seem them fix the problems with that system rather than the current character system.

 vict0988 wrote:

If you shot 2 melta shots and 16 bolter shots at 3 unmarked Chaos Bikes and a Chaos Lord with MoN on bike IIRC then the MoN would have no effect and the Chaos Lord could be one-shot by one of the melta shots.

The meltas wound wound against the general unit toughness, but when resolving said wounds (in terms of armor / instant death) you'd refer to the individual profiles. Ergo the lord, in this case, would be able to tank the melta shots without suffering Instant Death.

Unless I'm heavily misremembering what MoN did / we're talking about an edition where the toughness bones from bikes didn't effect ID (which, again IIRC, swung back and forth for several).

11/04/2023

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/11/leaders-now-join-squads-to-personally-deliver-powerful-boons-in-the-new-warhammer-40000/

Leaders Now Join Squads To Personally Deliver Powerful Boons in the New Warhammer 40,000

Aura bonuses that they used to impart on all nearby troops are gone – in almost all cases the potential to stack them up made balancing the game tricky.

your heroes now join a single squad and act as one cohesive unit.

the Leader ability unlocks the ability to join a squad

This is done before deployment, at the same time as transports are allocated and units are placed in Reserve – the Leader becomes a permanent member of that unit for the whole battle.

Each Leader has a short selection of units that they can join, all of them listed on their datasheet

Most of the time, only one Leader can join each unit – but as you can see, the Lieutenant is an exception, and can join the same squad as a superior Captain. Plenty of factions have similar low-ranked support Leaders, from Biophagus surgeons to Warlock battle-psykers.

The old Look Out, Sir! rule has also been devolved into this new system. Your Leader is kept safe by their Bodyguards, and can usually* be targeted only when everyone else in the squad has breathed their last.

Independent characters may have the Lone Operative ability, which means that they can’t be targeted by ranged attacks unless the attacker is within 12″.

Some characters only gain the Lone Operative ability when taking shelter near an appropriate unit

so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

So unofficial retinues and command squads are back on the menu boyz!

Curious what the Redacted units are. Bog standard Intercessors just don't seem like Command Squad worthy. But I guess I'll just paint them as Veterans.

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

Yea, not quite. And Deathstars were more a 7th thing.

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

I mean, GW listed Intercessors as an option to attach Lts to as if anyone was going to do that, which proves again they don't understand their own game.

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

unless they bring back the bad wound allocation, this is effectively a reduction of power, which is good.

Its also a much better system than Look out Sir ever was in 8th-9th


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

I mean, GW listed Intercessors as an option to attach Lts to as if anyone was going to do that, which proves again they don't understand their own game.

.... right, every option has to be top tier competitive.

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

Hopefully someone has learned.

Still thinking it’s a bit meh, the marine buff stacking is still looking to be a pain.

maybe?
Depends what the Captain can do and how large those units can be

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

Yea, not quite. And Deathstars were more a 7th thing.

that is why they were removed in 8th

It is far more limited than the 3rd-7th independent character rules so the potential for deathstars is considerably lessened.

I wouldn't be surprised if people still found ways to make one, but should be weaker than in 7th and in 9th.

Right - and those deathstars were a variety of different characters slapshod into whatever was the toughest unit that could be brought.

Bark Star was 50 Fernisan Wolves with mounted Wolf Lords and / or WGBL and / or Wolf Priests, back by Librarian Conclave, and Azreal.

None of that is a thing here.

this wasn't a thing at the start of 7th either (actually Deathstars were not a thing from 3rd to early 7th)

so by now the only reason it won't be that bad again is GW promising to stay in line when writing the Codex rules

yeah, give them until the Tau Codex as they don't know what to do with Farsight and his Bodyguard Suits

They called out Shadowsun. Farsight can just be a Lone Operator near Crisis suits and the Bodyguards can just have an extra ability.

 kodos wrote:
this wasn't a thing at the start of 7th either (actually Deathstars were not a thing from 3rd to early 7th)

Deathstars were a thing long before 7th.

 Tyran wrote:

 kodos wrote:
this wasn't a thing at the start of 7th either (actually Deathstars were not a thing from 3rd to early 7th)

Deathstars were a thing long before 7th.

Iirc since 1977

I'm neutral on this, but I do have some concerns:

Unit attachment happens at deployment, and if there are rules for voluntary separation from an attached unit during the game, they don't seem to have been mentioned in the article.

I think it's better when characters can join and leave as dictated by the action of the battle.

I'm also concerned about mixed toughnes and armour saves.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

unless they bring back the bad wound allocation, this is effectively a reduction of power, which is good.

Its also a much better system than Look out Sir ever was in 8th-9th


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

I mean, GW listed Intercessors as an option to attach Lts to as if anyone was going to do that, which proves again they don't understand their own game.

.... right, every option has to be top tier competitive.

Looking at the LT's rules, with autowound on 6s and fall back and shoot (and charge, if need be), it isn't even terrible. Its a fire support and objective grabbing unit that can't be pinned down.

Its also notably eating a couple chapter tactics and spitting them back out as leader abilities.



------------------------
Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
I'm neutral on this, but I do have some concerns:

Unit attachment happens at deployment, and if there are rules for voluntary separation from an attached unit during the game, they don't seem to have been mentioned in the article.

I think it's better when characters can join and leave as dictated by the action of the battle.

I'm also concerned about mixed toughnes and armour saves.

Concerns addressed (though you may not be happy with the answers):

The first thing to notice is the Leader ability, which unlocks the ability to join a squad. This is done before deployment, at the same time as transports are allocated and units are placed in Reserve – the Leader becomes a permanent member of that unit for the whole battle.

You don't have to join your leader to a unit, but if you do, no take backs until everybody is dead. No voluntary separation.

Mixed T and saves seems (to me at least) to be addressed by lone operative. Any leader that could potentially cause that problem is going to be LO instead.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so basically everything that was changed to remove Deathstars in 8th, is now being replaced again

I mean, GW listed Intercessors as an option to attach Lts to as if anyone was going to do that, which proves again they don't understand their own game.

I suppose you have the full rulebook, datasheets and the like to hand to demonstrate that? Even then the reduction in ap means that if the auto bolter retains its 3 shots they currently benefit most from the auto-wound from the Lieutenant.