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ERJAK wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
So it's strongly implied by indirect USR that you can only kill models in line of sight, not wipe units because one guy wasn't quite round the corner. Add in the new regen abilities, cover saves a plenty etc and it's feasible moat of your army could be alive t4

Not if your army is t3 and doesn't benefit from cover because of their 3+ save.

Bro.... don't bring that gak back.

If you can't kill models you don't see, thats a MUUUUUCH bigger defensive buff than "muh 2+ save".

Sisters players, be prepared to get so many miracle dice that you can hardly spend them all.

ERJAK wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
So it's strongly implied by indirect USR that you can only kill models in line of sight, not wipe units because one guy wasn't quite round the corner. Add in the new regen abilities, cover saves a plenty etc and it's feasible moat of your army could be alive t4

Not if your army is t3 and doesn't benefit from cover because of their 3+ save.

I suppose you know their points costs, character interactions, full sets of strats and all other relevant info then? Kinda screaming into the void about nothing otherwise. I'd love to hear your case for them being a 4+ just so ap- can give them the exact same save.

They removed the cap on how many AoF's a unit can use in a phase, which made them change the rules on the simiulacrum- You used to need a Simulacrum to do more than one AoF- know it grants you Miracle dice for destroying units.

I'm pretty stoked- it isn't a big change, and any of the little tweaks seemed to work in our favour.

PenitentJake wrote:
They removed the cap on how many AoF's a unit can use in a phase, which made them change the rules on the simiulacrum- You used to need a Simulacrum to do more than one AoF- know it grants you Miracle dice for destroying units.

I'm pretty stoked- it isn't a big change, and any of the little tweaks seemed to work in our favour.

Might want to give the Triuphm a second look, especially the Simulacrum of the Ebon Chalice

 Jidmah wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Not being able to score at all, even uncontested, with 0 OC means battle shock is going to be critical, and also means if immunity to it stays, those units will be head and shoulders above the rest.

Rip plague marines I guess.

In my opinion, if synapse isn't making stuff immune to battle shock, nothing is.

That said, I don't understand your comment about plague marines, can you please explain?

I was thinking of poxwalkers are immune they will outclass plague marines yet again as the "go to" troop choice because they can't be shut down. Just like when PMs were too expensive and it was zombie hordes for days.

Hopefully not though.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
They removed the cap on how many AoF's a unit can use in a phase, which made them change the rules on the simiulacrum- You used to need a Simulacrum to do more than one AoF- know it grants you Miracle dice for destroying units.

I'm pretty stoked- it isn't a big change, and any of the little tweaks seemed to work in our favour.

Might want to give the Triuphm a second look, especially the Simulacrum of the Ebon Chalice

Yep, you're right.

Now things suck because the BSS simulacra doesn't let units perform a second act, which sucks. If simulacra GENERATE MD, but don't let you use more than one, we definitely are going to end up with more MD than we can use.

Bah...

I was happy with my first read. Less happy now.

They removed the cap on the number of units that can use an AoF in any given phase.

Just to play devil's advocate, what happens RAW if i substitute a miracle dice of '6' for a damage roll in an damage D3 weapon? I know what is intended, but the way they've written it does seem to offer the possibility that you can actually 'roll' a result of 6 that way...

PenitentJake wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
They removed the cap on how many AoF's a unit can use in a phase, which made them change the rules on the simiulacrum- You used to need a Simulacrum to do more than one AoF- know it grants you Miracle dice for destroying units.

I'm pretty stoked- it isn't a big change, and any of the little tweaks seemed to work in our favour.

Might want to give the Triuphm a second look, especially the Simulacrum of the Ebon Chalice

Yep, you're right.

Now things suck because the BSS simulacra doesn't let units perform a second act, which sucks. If simulacra GENERATE MD, but don't let you use more than one, we definitely are going to end up with more MD than we can use.

Bah...

I was happy with my first read. Less happy now.

I honestly prefer the Simulacrum giving MD if the unit destroys something instead of allowing a unit to perform more. I know we will end up having way more MD than we can probably use, but I expect this detachment (and hopefully ALL of our detachments once the codex is out) to have some stratagem similar to "Moment of Grace" where you can burn Miracle Dice to either manipulate a roll, bring a character back with X wounds left, or some other kind of interaction. My hope is that they de-restrict a sort of "Divine Intervention" stratagem and allow Vahl to get up again and Celestine to get up for a 3rd time somehow lol.

There is still so much we don't know but at least the Exorcist FINALLY gets built-in indirect fire and the anti-tank missiles feel stronger at least (they will deal with T9 effectively now and will have a reasonable chance of harming T10). AP -2 feels much less bad now with AP in the game going down and the fact that its Heavy means the Exorcist COULD be hitting on 2s with direct fire or still on 3s with indirect despite the BS penalty. D6+2 shots beats D6 and keeps the same minimum as 3d3 while only losing a slight maximum/average. I would have liked it to retain Blast but it feels like a relatively reliable weapon while still being less reliable than before to some degree, which fits its lore and I am fine with that. I wish it would have stayed at 48" range though, but 36" was bound to happen with range going down so much across the board. I expect the Castigaor Battle Cannon to go down to 48" instead of 72" like the Guard one, I just really hope that keeps AP -3 (or at least only goes down to AP -2) and gets like d6+2 shots as well, or even d6+3 and like S12-14 just so we have some kind of dedicated anti-tank firepower now that we have to be beyond half dead for meltas to be effective lol. Also MAYBE they will let us choose which missiles we want to fire on the Exorcist datasheet instead of forcing us to choose one to have all game...(probably not but I will hope until the datasheet drops at launch).

Vahl's melee being roughly the same except for losing AP on her strike feels a bit meh though. I think she either could have gotten more attacks or S9 at least along with keeping AP -3 and it still would not have been nearly as wild as Gulliman or Abbadon. Still, an MD of 6 for her wound roll will give her guaranteed 3 mortals which is nice and any other 6s to wound will also do it so she has the potential to spike relatively high in damage. Hopefully she still has good buffs to the army and has a way to buff her own melee with AP, Attacks, or even Strength, which would make a lot of sense given how underwhelming it looks right now. Maybe that will be something she can choose or an aura of "Strength +1/Attacks +1/AP -1 extra in melee for everyone within 6"" or some combination of that. Just gonna have to wait and see.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate, what happens RAW if i substitute a miracle dice of '6' for a damage roll in an damage D3 weapon? I know what is intended, but the way they've written it does seem to offer the possibility that you can actually 'roll' a result of 6 that way...

I would be the first to point it out if it was wrong, but it checks out: you substitute the dice value "as if it had been rolled" (actual quote from the rule) so a 6 just gets halved like normal to get the D3 final result.

I'm mildly curious with this reveal the interaction of Indirect Fire and Ignores Cover, as seen on the Exorcist.

I see two options:
1) The Indirect Fire overrides the Ignores Cover - you get to ignore the cover saves of units you can see, but not on units you cannot see.
2) The Ignores cover overrides the Indirect Fire - you ignore cover saves no matter what, including from the Indirect Fire rule you have.

I'm personally guessing it is 2, but just a bit of curiosity there.

So...now that LD tests are reversed what will SoB players use 1's & 2's Miracle Dice for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kurhanik wrote:
I'm mildly curious with this reveal the interaction of Indirect Fire and Ignores Cover, as seen on the Exorcist.

I see two options:
1) The Indirect Fire overrides the Ignores Cover - you get to ignore the cover saves of units you can see, but not on units you cannot see.
2) The Ignores cover overrides the Indirect Fire - you ignore cover saves no matter what, including from the Indirect Fire rule you have.

I'm personally guessing it is 2, but just a bit of curiosity there.

I have to imagine 2 as well, only because the Exorcist has the Ignores Cover keyword too.

I bet there will be Indirect Fire weapons that don't have the Ignores Cover keyword and their targets will get to claim cover.

One thing I have noticed from this article is that the number of people who have no idea what anything in Sisters of battle does is extremely high.

PSA we already had those guns we already had Miracle dice we already had the plus one when stuff dies thing

Well, you were all wrong to tell me not to worry.

They’ve found the excuse to make Sisters ballistic skill 4 plus on heavy weapons whilst other armies haven’t had their profile nerfed. That is a slippery slope when all the others armies are getting profiles boosted.

The Sisters bolter has stayed the same whilst marine bolters are 2 shots all the time, you can advance and fire, as well as getting the heavy key word. So hopefully Intercessors are 25 points now.

They haven’t done anything to address survivability and the Sisters main things is Acts of Faith which works best on single models like a multi melta a big CC unit making a charge or a characters invulnerable save.

Rather than incentivise players to stop taking small throw away 5 sisters units to camp on objectives they made a rule specifically to encourage you to do precisely that.

So unless they’re 7 to 8 points a model I don’t see them being viable as line infantry. All the special rules will just end up boosting your elite infantry and they’ve continued the glass hammer mentality which makes the army play like Eldar.

As expected tanks got better. Acts of Faith pretty much the same.

Wayniac 809431 11531778 wrote:
I was thinking of poxwalkers are immune they will outclass plague marines yet again as the "go to" troop choice because they can't be shut down. Just like when PMs were too expensive and it was zombie hordes for days.

Hopefully not though.

I am not good at the joke things. And more or less every attempt from me to make one ended with me getting a warrning, but one per 1-3 month ain't that bad. So here I go.

Plague Marines have to pay for the 6 week, when one of the head designers was being slapped around by Mortarion in 9th ed. :fist shake:




I really can't wait to see 1ksons and GK rules, it is going to be actual fun to read about them from GW.

So unless they’re 7 to 8 points a model I don’t see them being viable as line infantry.

I have absolutely no proof, but I'm sure that 40K is about to receive the AoS 3.0 treatment : a massive point increase for everyone, making the armies a lot smaller and thus, "solving" the problem of the prices because you will need less models to play 1K or 2K games.

When you come from 40K, you often feel that you are playing a 1K5 points game despite it being a 2K points.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well, you were all wrong to tell me not to worry.

oh, so you've played 10th already? Lucky you.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

They’ve found the excuse to make Sisters ballistic skill 4 plus on heavy weapons whilst other armies haven’t had their profile nerfed. That is a slippery slope when all the others armies are getting profiles boosted.

we havnt seen infantry-mounted Multi-melta or heavy bolter on something else than sisters, right?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

The Sisters bolter has stayed the same whilst marine bolters are 2 shots all the time, you can advance and fire, as well as getting the heavy key word. So hopefully Intercessors are 25 points now.

Simplification of Bolter discipline.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


They haven’t done anything to address survivability and the Sisters main things is Acts of Faith which works best on single models like a multi melta a big CC unit making a charge or a characters invulnerable save.

Oh right, they havnt reduced AP and rerolls.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Rather than incentivise players to stop taking small throw away 5 sisters units to camp on objectives they made a rule specifically to encourage you to do precisely that.

so maybe thats how GW wants the army to be played? i don't complain that i can't bring a shooting list when i play khorne

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


So unless they’re 7 to 8 points a model I don’t see them being viable as line infantry. All the special rules will just end up boosting your elite infantry and they’ve continued the glass hammer mentality which makes the army play like Eldar.

What metric are you comparing them to? we havnt seen any points so far.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


As expected tanks got better. Acts of Faith pretty much the same.

About time tanks got better honestly



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Selfcontrol wrote:

So unless they’re 7 to 8 points a model I don’t see them being viable as line infantry.

I have absolutely no proof, but I'm sure that 40K is about to receive the AoS 3.0 treatment : a massive point increase for everyone, making the armies a lot smaller and thus, "solving" the problem of the prices because you will need less models to play 1K or 2K games.

When you come from 40K, you often feel that you are playing a 1K5 points game despite it being a 2K points.

i would love for them to do that honestly, after playing AoS for a few months now, the smaller scale of armies is much more interesting

Because Sisters shouldn’t have 5 model units being objective counters. Sisters of battle should, like in the art, have blocks of infantry that move onto an objective and mean the enemy has to invest in shifting them off. It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

So marines get bolter discipline baked in but sacred rites and anti psychic saves go? Plus keeping their -1 AP, getting advance and fire and the heavy key word to hit on 2 plus if they stay still. Intercessors should be 3 times more expensive than a Sister of Battle if you’re going to keep heaping bonuses on them.

It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well, you were all wrong to tell me not to worry.

They’ve found the excuse to make Sisters ballistic skill 4 plus on heavy weapons whilst other armies haven’t had their profile nerfed. That is a slippery slope when all the others armies are getting profiles boosted.

The Sisters bolter has stayed the same whilst marine bolters are 2 shots all the time, you can advance and fire, as well as getting the heavy key word. So hopefully Intercessors are 25 points now.

They haven’t done anything to address survivability and the Sisters main things is Acts of Faith which works best on single models like a multi melta a big CC unit making a charge or a characters invulnerable save.

Rather than incentivise players to stop taking small throw away 5 sisters units to camp on objectives they made a rule specifically to encourage you to do precisely that.

So unless they’re 7 to 8 points a model I don’t see them being viable as line infantry. All the special rules will just end up boosting your elite infantry and they’ve continued the glass hammer mentality which makes the army play like Eldar.

As expected tanks got better. Acts of Faith pretty much the same.

I didn't even see the BS thing. There's really no point in bringing guns with sisters.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because Sisters shouldn’t have 5 model units being objective counters. Sisters of battle should, like in the art, have blocks of infantry that move onto an objective and mean the enemy has to invest in shifting them off. It should be both viable to do that and you shouldn’t incentivise players to break the game by getting two or even four units of 5 on one objective to harvest double miracle dice.

So marines get bolter discipline baked in but sacred rites and anti psychic saves go? Plus keeping their -1 AP, getting advance and fire and the heavy key word to hit on 2 plus if they stay still. Intercessors should be 3 times more expensive than a Sister of Battle if you’re going to keep heaping bonuses on them.

It’s not 3rd edition. A 3 plus save doesn’t matter even without AP. Why do you think they gave marines 2 wounds?

Did you read Defenders Of The Faith?
You get one die per objective held by a Battle Sisters unit. Not one per Battle Sisters unit on an objective.

And for all we know, an Intercessor IS three times as expensive as a Sister. They could be four times as expensive, or twice, or a hundred times. We don't know yet.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
They’ve found the excuse to make Sisters ballistic skill 4 plus on heavy weapons whilst other armies haven’t had their profile nerfed. That is a slippery slope when all the others armies are getting profiles boosted.

As I explained to you pages ago, with the reversal to how HEAVY works compared to now - and ignoring that it should go back to move or fire for INFANTRY, but I digress - if the intent is for SoB INFANTRY-mounted heavy weapons is for them to hit on a base 3+ if they don't move, then their BS needed to change to 4+ to start with.

And it isn't just SoB - we can see it happening for the Chaincannon on CSM Legionaries, though I'm not sure why the Havoc Autocannon is 3+. We haven't seen IG INFANTRY HW yet, so we don't know where they stand, nor SM HW peeps, either.

+ + +

I see the Crusade article is up, and it does demonstrate another use for Critical Wounds, with the Precise Weapon Modification (CW gain the PRECISION ability). I can't recall off-hand what we've seen about PRECISION to date, if anything, but I find it a little that it kicks in on the Wound step - it feels like something that makes more sense on a hit. On the other hand, given it is a CW, the hit would've wounded anyway, so maybe it isn't as odd as I'm thinking - and that's quite nasty if you can apply it to a weapon with ANTI-INFANTRY X.

Good, it’s not totally exploitable. It still encourages you to spend the same points to have 4 times the number of objective and miracle dice instead of one block on a single objective.

It’s the thin end of the wedge with the ballistic skill going down. First they came for the bolter, then they came for the wounds and attacks, then they came for the ballistic skill. Next it will be 4 up armour and BS4 plus for all guns and you’ll still be telling me this isn’t a nerf or diluting the armies theme. Look at a marine profile in third edition next to a Sister of Battle. The marine profile is absurd now, yet the Sisters profile and points has stayed the same. It’s an overpriced horde unit, not solid mid tier infantry.

Wayniac wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Not being able to score at all, even uncontested, with 0 OC means battle shock is going to be critical, and also means if immunity to it stays, those units will be head and shoulders above the rest.

Rip plague marines I guess.

In my opinion, if synapse isn't making stuff immune to battle shock, nothing is.

That said, I don't understand your comment about plague marines, can you please explain?

I was thinking of poxwalkers are immune they will outclass plague marines yet again as the "go to" troop choice because they can't be shut down. Just like when PMs were too expensive and it was zombie hordes for days.

Hopefully not though.

I doubt Poxwalkers will have much of an Objective Control.

Well, they’re saying the combat patrols are evenly matched. There’s no way sisters are a third the points value of a chaos marine or intercessor since their combat patrols fairly similar numbers wise.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well, they’re saying the combat patrols are evenly matched. There’s no way sisters are a third the points value of a chaos marine or intercessor since their combat patrols fairly similar numbers wise.

They also said that they were making the difference up with skills and abilities for combat patrols that were not evenly matched, so it's a wash.

Selfcontrol wrote:

So unless they’re 7 to 8 points a model I don’t see them being viable as line infantry.

I have absolutely no proof, but I'm sure that 40K is about to receive the AoS 3.0 treatment : a massive point increase for everyone, making the armies a lot smaller and thus, "solving" the problem of the prices because you will need less models to play 1K or 2K games.

When you come from 40K, you often feel that you are playing a 1K5 points game despite it being a 2K points.

We can say safely they haven't, a small uptick across the board. The www.warhammer40000.com site has pics of a crusade roster.

Primaris tech marine is 80, currently 70
Unit of infiltrators is 220, currently 200.

 Dysartes wrote:

I see the Crusade article is up, and it does demonstrate another use for Critical Wounds, with the Precise Weapon Modification (CW gain the PRECISION ability). I can't recall off-hand what we've seen about PRECISION to date, if anything, but I find it a little that it kicks in on the Wound step - it feels like something that makes more sense on a hit. On the other hand, given it is a CW, the hit would've wounded anyway, so maybe it isn't as odd as I'm thinking - and that's quite nasty if you can apply it to a weapon with ANTI-INFANTRY X.

Precision is likely (not 100%) being able to target a character (or specific model) while they're part of a unit.

Just a thought regarding the number of miracle dice. It seems that there may be more miracle dice generated than can be expected to be used in a battle, it could be that this is deliberate to compensate for the fact that low number miracle dice are all but useless with the way leadership tests work in 10th.

That's what I was thinking it'd be, and it just feels weird that'd kick in on a Wound roll with this Modification rather than a Hit roll, y'know?