Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Roboute (once per turn within 12) and Terminator Captain (once per battle round on their terminator unit) can let you do the same strat three times in a single phase (twice for free). Remains to be seen if other generic SM Captains also have it or just that one. Space Marines have 2 CP Fight on Death strat or the generic 2 CP interrupt combat strat.

Canis Rex, a 500ish point Knight once per turn.

Thousand Sons get it in their army rule. In theory they could get 4 free strats per battle round (their shoot phase, their fight phase, your shoot phase, your fight phase) but that is some serious jumping through hoops and they'll probably be too busy turning off your armour saves to do it. But I have mentally noted that as possibly being better than turning off armour saves depending on the TS strats.

Edit to add: I too hate Space Wolves, but maybe not in the same way.

Ah I see. I was hoping they would be fairly limited while using those abilities. Completely forgot 1k Sons doing free strats, I guess I was too focused on the turn off Armor Saves + Warp time cabal powers.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:


I admit I've only been following the armies I collect and haven't noticed a ton of of these, only Asurmen and Fleshhounds off the top of my head. Who else previewed has had a 0CP / more than once per Round ability?

most eldar stuff got build in always active stratagems for free. the prism always re-rolls a hit and to wound , on top of the regular detachment re-rolls. The platforms do d6+2 MW on a 6+, but eldar dont have to fish for a 6+ and the to hit has a re-roll from detachment.

Other armie like the GK master in NDK can be targeted with a stratagem for 1CP. Although it is not explain why someone would like to take him.

I don't think a unit having a reroll is the same as being able to be targeted with a stratagem for 0 CP.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

MasterAO wrote:
Exalted, and same here. I do not like werewolves in space. I stick to my vikings in space who hunts animals and uses their fur for trophies.

Mr Morden wrote:
Me too - I deeply dislike modern Wolfy Wolf Wolves and Dark Emo Angels....

Then we are in good company!

You say that now, but as space wolves players you're always just one impulse buy or well-intentioned birthday gift away from full-blown furrydom

Meh, Ive played space Wolves since 1993 when the only werewolf aspect was a single wargear card called the wulfen stone that forced break tests on units the bearer charged (on 3d6 instead of 2d6). No werewolf claws or furries in sight


The 13th black Crusade 13th great company list was fun and it didn't ham up the wolves too much. It was a tasteful addition of loyalist veterans of the long war and a wulfen squad like a death company squad. Minis were nice too.

It was 5th ed onwards that flanderised them into pure parody with thunder wolf cavalry, literal magic frost weapons (wtf) and those awful plastic wulfen. Not to mention grimnar claus...


Just like my Eldar have independent exarchs, my space Wolves aren't a traveling flandercircus. I find very little positive in modern changes to those armies.

EightFoldPath wrote:
A few armies get very reliable bonus CP gain, which is capped at 1 extra CP per battle round.

GW being the geniuses they are have also given a small number of armies "use a strat for free" abilities, getting around the CP gain cap and in some cases also getting around the once per phase restriction too.

This is of course very easy to balance against the armies that don't have this ability and is not a hidden "free" source of power.

Hard to be hidden when it is the literal rule of that model.

I don't find any issue with those. Having leader characters granting bonus stratagems seems to be the best interpretation of a leader role on the field. Surely better than the "Wound better you dogs!" that we had until now.

Especially considering that the generic stratagems are really strong, so far mostly better than the faction ones... apart from the respawn stratagems, where your leader isn't going to help. This means that costing these rules isn't that hard.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I don't think a unit having a reroll is the same as being able to be targeted with a stratagem for 0 CP.

A full re-roll on 3 fire prisms which do 12 dmg per shot and can draw LoS through each other is like having Oath of the moment active for 3 targets. It blows ups 2-3 vehicles without inv saves per turn. In an edition that tries hard to make people run vehicles. And this is pre miracle dice etc. Only thing that could balance this would be an extrem points cost, but I have my doubts this will happen.
Ah and this is just one unit. How about spiders flying around the table 20" as normal move. Or weapon platforms doing MW on a good roll, but in reality not needing a good roll, because a near by farseer will give them the 6 they need.
War walkers have so many def buffs, that armies with mostly stormbolters are going to need 4-5 turns of focus fire to kill a single one, even heavy weapon heavy armies will need to really try hard to kill a fast moving, weapon platform that can grab objectives.
And the stratagems are good too. Blade storm on a large unit of scatter laser bikers is going to be great. Phantasm is great for an army which can move fast AND kill stuff.

Karol wrote:

A full re-roll on 3 fire prisms which do 12 dmg per shot and can draw LoS through each other is like having Oath of the moment active for 3 targets.

Not going to say this isn't OP- it may be. But this isn't what's actually allowed by the rules.

A Prism with linked fire doesn't do 12 damage; it has two shots which each do 6 damage. ONE of those hits can be rerolled. ONE of those wounds can be rerolled.
Then the next Prism gets to fire, and it gets ONE hit reroll and ONE wound roll. It also doesn't have to choose the same target as the first Prism. This can continue one more time if you brought a third Prism- again a single hit reroll and a single wound reroll, with the option of choosing a different target(s)

Oath of Moment, on the other hand, allows EVERY hit roll and EVERY wound roll a unit makes to be rerolled but doesn't allow target switching.

So in truth, a prism cannon's linked fire ability has little in common with Oath of Moment, other than the word "reroll" - though it may still be OP, which I think is your main point anyway.

Detachment gives 1more hit&wound rerolls.

2 shots. 1rerolled by datasheet, 1 by detachment.

Of course things change when detachments appear in codex but for now both shots reroll hit&wound.

tneva82 wrote:
Detachment gives 1more hit&wound rerolls.

2 shots. 1rerolled by datasheet, 1 by detachment.

Of course things change when detachments appear in codex but for now both shots reroll hit&wound.

I hadn't seen the data sheet for the unit, only the Prism Cannon in the Warcom article. If the Prism tank's datasheet also has a reroll, that's worse for sure- the player probably wouldn't even need the detachment reroll at that point.

Yea it will still struggle against invulnerable saves and smoke cuts it's efficiency in half. It has no Heavy or DW to pull it through and Guide is quite hard to put on a distant target.

There is also an actual counter to the triple fireprism maneuver. If he keeps 2 prisms hidden and exposes one... you overwatch and try to kill that one, making him waste the attacks on the other 2.

Spoletta wrote:
There is also an actual counter to the triple fireprism maneuver. If he keeps 2 prisms hidden and exposes one... you overwatch and try to kill that one, making him waste the attacks on the other 2.

Given the timing on overwatch in their movement phase that wouldn't work, you just kill the Prism that moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
A few armies get very reliable bonus CP gain, which is capped at 1 extra CP per battle round.

GW being the geniuses they are have also given a small number of armies "use a strat for free" abilities, getting around the CP gain cap and in some cases also getting around the once per phase restriction too.

This is of course very easy to balance against the armies that don't have this ability and is not a hidden "free" source of power.

Hard to be hidden when it is the literal rule of that model.

This means that costing these rules isn't that hard.

9th edition: Iron Hands Relic Contemptor Dreadnought - Death Guard Contemptor Dreadnought - Thousand Sons Contemptor Dreadnought

They all cost the same points and CP to field. They had the same basic datasheet. They had different hidden rules.

Did you know those three Contemptor Dreadnoughts cost the same in 9th and were wildly different in power when you said the items in bold? Or did you not know that but still come out with your comments?

EightFoldPath wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
There is also an actual counter to the triple fireprism maneuver. If he keeps 2 prisms hidden and exposes one... you overwatch and try to kill that one, making him waste the attacks on the other 2.

Given the timing on overwatch in their movement phase that wouldn't work, you just kill the Prism that moved.

Well if opponent moves first the prisms that stay out of los you could take out 3rd denying los to the other 2. The 2 are alive but can't shoot due to lack of los.

Lesson learned.move the one that aim's to see target first.

You'd need a lot of luck and a fairly hefty overwatching unit to bring down a fire prism. It's still a tank and it's not likely to be hanging about close to anything in its own movement phase which has a good chance of killing it, because it'll be there in the following turn and the Eldar player probably doesn't want it getting blown up then either.

So you'll need to force some really awkward choices on the Eldar player to get them to give up their fire prism's position so that you can kill it with overwatch. Frankly I'm not saying its impossible, but it's not going to happen often

EightFoldPath wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
A few armies get very reliable bonus CP gain, which is capped at 1 extra CP per battle round.

GW being the geniuses they are have also given a small number of armies "use a strat for free" abilities, getting around the CP gain cap and in some cases also getting around the once per phase restriction too.

This is of course very easy to balance against the armies that don't have this ability and is not a hidden "free" source of power.

Hard to be hidden when it is the literal rule of that model.

This means that costing these rules isn't that hard.

9th edition: Iron Hands Relic Contemptor Dreadnought - Death Guard Contemptor Dreadnought - Thousand Sons Contemptor Dreadnought

They all cost the same points and CP to field. They had the same basic datasheet. They had different hidden rules.

Did you know those three Contemptor Dreadnoughts cost the same in 9th and were wildly different in power when you said the items in bold? Or did you not know that but still come out with your comments?

Sorry I can't follow.
In what way your answer is related to the previous points being made? I fail to see a connection.

It seems like eldar stratagems alone are a good reason to bring units which force battleshock

Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

Meh. It's how GW chooses to advertise.

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I don't get the scalpers connection.

Buying advertising with a box of plastic, a few books or early access to a computer game is really cheap for the business. Its merely sensible.
That most youtubers come with a free horde of sycophants is a huge benefit.

Voss wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I don't get the scalpers connection.

Buying advertising with a box of plastic, a few books or early access to a computer game is really cheap for the business. Its merely sensible.
That most youtubers come with a free horde of sycophants is a huge benefit.

Even if they send it out to scores upon scores of youtubers, that's less than a pallet of product that is, by most estimations, produced in the 100.000s - it's an amount that just doesn't matter.

they will send out likely less than will be written off due to damaged packaging, and they will write the full cost off against tax as an expense anyway

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I have no idea what scalpers have to do with this?

Sending advance copies to prominent social media channels is standard marketing practice nowadays, so I'm not sure what it is you don't understand about it.

Slipspace wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I have no idea what scalpers have to do with this?

Sending advance copies to prominent social media channels is standard marketing practice nowadays, so I'm not sure what it is you don't understand about it.

It was also a staple advertising tactic in the last century, only in the form of 'review copies' etc. sent to magazines, which were the prominent venue for product reviews at that time. The modern influencer is just the contemporary face of that.

Voss wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I don't get the scalpers connection.

Buying advertising with a box of plastic, a few books or early access to a computer game is really cheap for the business. Its merely sensible.
That most youtubers come with a free horde of sycophants is a huge benefit.

The connection to the scalpers I was making is that the scalpers will buy all the boxes, so GW knows it will sell all the boxes and doesn't have to worry about getting people to buy the box. The people we will have to buy from are the scalpers, therefore advertising to people who will not be able to purchase directly from GW is wasted money. The scalpers now have to compete against each other so they're the ones who need advertising so that people will buy the boxset from them and not other scalpers.

PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:

A full re-roll on 3 fire prisms which do 12 dmg per shot and can draw LoS through each other is like having Oath of the moment active for 3 targets.

Not going to say this isn't OP- it may be. But this isn't what's actually allowed by the rules.

A Prism with linked fire doesn't do 12 damage; it has two shots which each do 6 damage. ONE of those hits can be rerolled. ONE of those wounds can be rerolled.
Then the next Prism gets to fire, and it gets ONE hit reroll and ONE wound roll. It also doesn't have to choose the same target as the first Prism. This can continue one more time if you brought a third Prism- again a single hit reroll and a single wound reroll, with the option of choosing a different target(s)

Oath of Moment, on the other hand, allows EVERY hit roll and EVERY wound roll a unit makes to be rerolled but doesn't allow target switching.

So in truth, a prism cannon's linked fire ability has little in common with Oath of Moment, other than the word "reroll" - though it may still be OP, which I think is your main point anyway.

Why would they need to reroll? You can just force every dice result to be a 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NorthernXY wrote:

Voss wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I don't get the scalpers connection.

Buying advertising with a box of plastic, a few books or early access to a computer game is really cheap for the business. Its merely sensible.
That most youtubers come with a free horde of sycophants is a huge benefit.

The connection to the scalpers I was making is that the scalpers will buy all the boxes, so GW knows it will sell all the boxes and doesn't have to worry about getting people to buy the box. The people we will have to buy from are the scalpers, therefore advertising to people who will not be able to purchase directly from GW is wasted money. The scalpers now have to compete against each other so they're the ones who need advertising so that people will buy the boxset from them and not other scalpers.

Do you guys all live in like...the coldest parts of Siberia? Or do you just not realize that you don't HAVE to buy from GW's website?

Every time a new boxset comes out, people whine about scalpers, and every time I go to one of the half dozen places that sell GW near me and could build a decent size condo out of the number of boxes sitting around. Hell, I got TWO Indomitus boxes a week after launch with no problem at all. Can't GIVE those models away, these days.

The ONLY exception was Cursed City and that had just about everything going against it you could possibly have.

Might want to recheck rules. Every strand dice won't be 6. Un'ess you use loaded dice and then you don't need eldar rules

 NorthernXY wrote:

Voss wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:
Who else is majorly jealous of YouTubers getting the Leviathan box early and probably for free to advertise? I don't understand, the people who should be advertising are the scalpers.

I don't get the scalpers connection.

Buying advertising with a box of plastic, a few books or early access to a computer game is really cheap for the business. Its merely sensible.
That most youtubers come with a free horde of sycophants is a huge benefit.

The connection to the scalpers I was making is that the scalpers will buy all the boxes, so GW knows it will sell all the boxes and doesn't have to worry about getting people to buy the box. The people we will have to buy from are the scalpers, therefore advertising to people who will not be able to purchase directly from GW is wasted money. The scalpers now have to compete against each other so they're the ones who need advertising so that people will buy the boxset from them and not other scalpers.

So you're saying that my 3 local FLGS are scalpers?

tneva82 wrote:
Might want to recheck rules. Every strand dice won't be 6. Un'ess you use loaded dice and then you don't need eldar rules

Just need 12 Farseers. With Eldrad, Footseer and Bikeseer we're 7/12 of the way there.