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By now you've all seen the new 10th edition trailer, which I personally love (sorry if you're a tougher critic than I am), and cannot stop thinking about.

In particullary the ending of the trailer. The whole movie leads up to the ending, in what I would call a brilliant summary of not only the present state in-verse, but as brutally honest critique of our present times. I'm reeling with the feels and dying to make analogies, but not sure if that's possible without treading into politics and religion which is most apt to attract incivility (which in itself, that is to say forum etiquette a symptom of wider held malcontempt with each other in society) ...So let's try to avoid that despite the fact this trailer is bleeding with a moral for us all.

Considering this and the focus of 10th with humanity fighting off the monster (or at least presented as so in the trailer) as opposed to each other, I believe this couldn't have been a better introduction to a wider audience. But then it goes one step further.

Did you relate to Guilliman's words at the very end? Did you catch the moral? Do you see the analogies? Is this an adaptation of Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World, his Candle in the Dark? and his foreboding?

If it's possible to keep this level of narrative for a movie Henry Cavill 'd like to make with Amazon studios (which I have great reservations about) they will knock this out of the ball park imho.


Here's the shortened version of the ending, but this cannot be fully digested without seeing the full version first:


https://youtube.com/shorts/_p2uh-6kVfY



Full version:







So I hope the mods don't think I just tossed out a hand grenade as that's not my intent.


I'm not here to champion any ideology. Already articles and discussions are popping up around the Internet over this trailer ready to make their tired associations and point the finger, and I think this is a perfect example of the moral to the story that's being given by Guilliman.


At the very least how did it make you feel?



Beginning:


"Victory" that is what the preachers cry.


Ending:


"Victory" as the galaxy burns...


"Victory" as the Imperium rots around us...


"Victory!" as humanity rages against the dying of the light...


Victory...

 Adeptekon wrote:
Did you relate to Guilliman's words at the very end? Did you catch the moral? Do you see the analogies?

The whole point of the narration is to have you catch the moral and see the analogies, so yeah, I did, in a sense that I would have felt the pain if Guilliman had hit me in the head with a brick. Personally, I prefer when a piece of cinematic gets the point across while the most meaningful dialogue in it is AAAAAAAAAAA! Angsty voiceovers are just not my thing.

There is no subtlety or analogy in this reveal whatsoever.

Poor Robute is as jaded as many 40k players!

 AtoMaki wrote:
Personally, I prefer when a piece of cinematic gets the point across while the most meaningful dialogue in it is AAAAAAAAAAA! Angsty voiceovers are just not my thing.

Yes I was happy that didn't didn't feature. Hear me roar is way overdone. And the action wasn't over the top, but still shined, (marines standing their ground, gets feels) while being complimented with the narrative.

 Adeptekon wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Personally, I prefer when a piece of cinematic gets the point across while the most meaningful dialogue in it is AAAAAAAAAAA! Angsty voiceovers are just not my thing.

Yes I was happy that didn't didn't feature. Hear me roar is way overdone. And the action wasn't over the top, but still shined, (marines standing their ground, gets feels) while being complimented with the narrative.

That's the minimum one should expect though, no?

I wouldn't say I'm easily entertained when it comes to movie trailers, but maybe a tad over sentimental?

Plus I think the minimum expectation is rare these days, so that alone is worth grabbing a tissue for.

The is a very 40K Trailer. Everyone cries for Victory, but the one man in a position to know how things are going knows while victory is the only way for Humanity to survive, there is no victory to be had because In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, There is Only War.

I think you're reading far too much into a showy trailer for a tabletop wargame. Certainly the whole spiel by Girlyman in it does a better job of capturing what 40k is supposed to be (i.e. bleak, hopeless, and eternally locked in war) than most GW media has for years, but taking any further meaning from it than that is really reaching.
This is not a feature film or psychoanalysis of the human condition. It's an advert for plastic soldiers.

alextroy wrote:The is a very 40K Trailer. Everyone cries for Victory, but the one man in a position to know how things are going knows while victory is the only way for Humanity to survive, there is no victory to be had because In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, There is Only War.

I think that's a very good assessment, getting it back to the basics of a grimdark dystopia.

MalusCalibur wrote:I think you're reading far too much into a showy trailer for a tabletop wargame. Certainly the whole spiel by Girlyman in it does a better job of capturing what 40k is supposed to be (i.e. bleak, hopeless, and eternally locked in war) than most GW media has for years, but taking any further meaning from it than that is really reaching.
This is not a feature film or psychoanalysis of the human condition. It's an advert for plastic soldiers.

Heh, while that sure would make it simple and case closed. It kinda shuts the door on what 40K has become beyond the minis game, i.e. a satire on the human condition, a tragedy of the human experience, and a parody of our institutions both governmental and religious (think it was always a parody, but has become a satire).

While I've seen many a warhammer trailer I can't recall any for the tabletop or at least any that stayed with me. Considering they went to such a length to produce something like this for a refreshed set of plastic army men - while popular - is still somewhat of a niche among other forums of entertainment; so.. I also get the feeling this is a proactive set up for the potential Amazon production.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Heh, while that sure would make it simple and case closed. It kinda shuts the door on what 40K has become beyond the minis game, i.e. a satire on the human condition, a tragedy of the human experience, and a parody of our institutions both governmental and religious (think it was always a parody, but has become a satire).

With how utterly flanderised and ridiculous it has become, the only thing 40k parodies these days is itself. To claim it as 'a satire on the human condition, a tragedy of the human experience, and a parody of our institutions both governmental and religious' gives the current writers an absurd amount of undue credit, and comes across remarkably pretentious.

Lets not pretend for a second that modern 40k is anything beyond a way for GW to sell models. You can like those models, enjoy the setting despite it becoming a joke, play the game despite it being an expensive and painfully shallow experience...but accept it for what it is and don't try to claim it's any more than that.

 Adeptekon wrote:

alextroy wrote:The is a very 40K Trailer. Everyone cries for Victory, but the one man in a position to know how things are going knows while victory is the only way for Humanity to survive, there is no victory to be had because In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, There is Only War.

I think that's a very good assessment, getting it back to the basics of a grimdark dystopia.

MalusCalibur wrote:I think you're reading far too much into a showy trailer for a tabletop wargame. Certainly the whole spiel by Girlyman in it does a better job of capturing what 40k is supposed to be (i.e. bleak, hopeless, and eternally locked in war) than most GW media has for years, but taking any further meaning from it than that is really reaching.
This is not a feature film or psychoanalysis of the human condition. It's an advert for plastic soldiers.

Heh, while that sure would make it simple and case closed. It kinda shuts the door on what 40K has become beyond the minis game, i.e. a satire on the human condition, a tragedy of the human experience, and a parody of our institutions both governmental and religious (think it was always a parody, but has become a satire).

While I've seen many a warhammer trailer I can't recall any for the tabletop or at least any that stayed with me. Considering they went to such a length to produce something like this for a refreshed set of plastic army men - while popular - is still somewhat of a niche among other forums of entertainment; so.. I also get the feeling this is a proactive set up for the potential Amazon production.

40k did satire better in the early years, and that was mediocre.

This is GW mining the ONLY WAR! one minute to midnight setting with the same protagonists in different costumes yet again.

Its been a durable gold mine for years and will continue to be so, ill still partake of the odd hit, but there isn't any real nuance here.

Its a nice trailer for GW's cash cow. I doubt it has anything to do with Amazons future efforts.

Victory!

My 2 cents on the trailer:

GW's CGI-fu seems to have improved slowly but steadily. However, the human faces were still kind of naff and I felt the ligthing of the scenes was too dark and the action too visually hard to follow most of the time. Watch the clip with the audio muted and you'll see what I mean

In terms of the storytelling content, it felt like a mediocre Hollywood movie trailer. Overly bombastic and utterly void of substance. But then again, isn't this stuff meant for the same audience who loves tranformers movies et al?

I saw nothing but pretense of depth

YMMV as usual

"40K is a satire" ... of Rogue Trader. No more, no less. They're trolling themselves basically. Peak irony/dad hipsterism or capitalism? I don't really GAF enough to find out

 alextroy wrote:
The is a very 40K Trailer. Everyone cries for Victory, but the one man in a position to know how things are going knows while victory is the only way for Humanity to survive, there is no victory to be had because In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, There is Only War.

I don't think it works when the big guy has spelled-out angst over it. It is too definite and sentimental (leaning towards being Nobledark) when one would expect the opposite.

MalusCalibur wrote:With how utterly flanderised and ridiculous it has become, the only thing 40k parodies these days is itself. To claim it as 'a satire on the human condition, a tragedy of the human experience, and a parody of our institutions both governmental and religious' gives the current writers an absurd amount of undue credit, and comes across remarkably pretentious.

You've been in the game too long brother maybe so...

Mr. Burning wrote:

40k did satire better in the early years, and that was mediocre.

This is GW mining the ONLY WAR! one minute to midnight setting with the same protagonists in different costumes yet again.

Its been a durable gold mine for years and will continue to be so, ill still partake of the odd hit, but there isn't any real nuance here.

Its a nice trailer for GW's cash cow. I doubt it has anything to do with Amazons future efforts.

Victory!

Victory!

Oh but it does... look at this from the WH community page:

Warhammer 40,000 is set in the far future, where humanity stands at the edge of what might be its brightest future, or its darkest age. The threats to humankind’s empire are many — traitors driven by the fires of ambition, alien empires sworn to reclaim the stars, and the corruption of reality by malevolent gods.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/press_releases/amazon-studios-secures-first-of-its-kind-rights-to-warhammer-40000-with-henry-cavill-set-to-star-and-executive-produce-global-franchise/

I return to the 10th edition reveal of Ultras vs Nids being the perfect setting to squeeze what is an otherwise unapologetic grimdark into Amazon's "socially responsible" expectation for their investment, by uniting humanity for a common cause under a socially responsible banner of everyone wins. While news coverage of UFO's and Alien Motherships hanging out in our solar system make headlines prior to national elections.

tauist wrote:My 2 cents on the trailer:

GW's CGI-fu seems to have improved slowly but steadily. However, the human faces were still kind of naff and I felt the ligthing of the scenes was too dark and the action too visually hard to follow most of the time. Watch the clip with the audio muted and you'll see what I mean

In terms of the storytelling content, it felt like a mediocre Hollywood movie trailer. Overly bombastic and utterly void of substance. But then again, isn't this stuff meant for the same audience who loves tranformers movies et al?

I saw nothing but pretense of depth

YMMV as usual

"40K is a satire" ... of Rogue Trader. No more, no less. They're trolling themselves basically. Peak irony/dad hipsterism or capitalism? I don't really GAF enough to find out

Whatever it is, I don't think we'd have much to discuss, but our personal fluff if it weren't capitalism. But maybe that's what you mean like a multi-generational community driven narrative? I think that exists too though right?

One thing on the CGI I get you on the faces, however when you speak of the action being hard to follow consider where action has been with cinema in general, with zoom/cut/skip sequences where you can't tell just WTF is going on until it's over.

I think allowing breaks where we get to watch the camera pan out at distance rather keep us constantly placed at the center of the action whipping to and fro like a chicken with its head cut off is much better way to go.

I personally feel this doesn't really have that so it is progress in my book. That said I know someone who just can't take any spinning or whirling, running with the camera/flashy lights, so no further explanation required, but I would think most action flix would be a drag then, but I am open to checking out some good examples of what you like if you have any?

There was a little of that with the running of the Nids, a few skips here and there, and Apothecary Marine (which was classic horror), but I think it was well done and I got a few Pitch Black and Alien flash backs.

Adeptekon wrote:Heh, while that sure would make it simple and case closed. It kinda shuts the door on what 40K has become beyond the minis game, i.e. a satire on the human condition, a tragedy of the human experience, and a parody of our institutions both governmental and religious (think it was always a parody, but has become a satire).

...It's a Saturday morning cartoon setting for a toy soldier tabletop game. The overwhelming majority of Black Library novels are pulpy action schlock.

If someone's reading 40K fiction and thinks they're partaking in sophisticated satire of the human condition, they need to get out more.

Yeah. Maybe its too be cynical, but I feel this is just a reaction to all the fans going the cinematics for 8th and 9th were too "Imperium triumphalist."

8th especially - "It is the traitors that should fear us! Possession of this galaxy is Mankind's birthright. The stars are ours for the taking!"

So this is very much "The Imperium and Humanity is screwed."

Its a cool video but I don't really feel much beyond that. It also kind of cheats by doing the whole "big fight in darkness so you can't see the detail" - but that's pretty standard stuff.

Tyel wrote:
So this is very much "The Imperium and Humanity is screwed."

Yeah, and it is off-putting because it should be "The Imperium is going strong, and (because of that) Humanity is screwed."

catbarf wrote:

...It's a Saturday morning cartoon setting for a toy soldier tabletop game. The overwhelming majority of Black Library novels are pulpy action schlock.

If someone's reading 40K fiction and thinks they're partaking in sophisticated satire of the human condition, they need to get out more.

If they really showed what was in 40K it wouldn't be on Saturday mornings and they wouldn't be doing community out reach at the grade schools if the Puritans had an idea (think the Satanic Panic of the '80s with Dungeon & Dragons.)

That said where does anyone get their ethics from anymore? Unless you're religiously instructed or raised by philosophers, no one's reading folk tales. The last few generations were raised by TV and the web so naturally our ethics have been outsourced to those producing on these mediums in the form of sitcoms and cartoons with mores. And I think there's plenty of bad examples of what not to do/be like in 40k.

Otherwise sure maybe not sophisticated, but simplicity makes it accessible. Granted there's a lot of gratuitous pulp filler there attempting to appeal to our base triggers because that's what sells today. The fluff has become something of a counter to that.

Tyel wrote:Yeah. Maybe its too be cynical, but I feel this is just a reaction to all the fans going the cinematics for 8th and 9th were too "Imperium triumphalist."

8th especially - "It is the traitors that should fear us! Possession of this galaxy is Mankind's birthright. The stars are ours for the taking!"

So this is very much "The Imperium and Humanity is screwed."

Its a cool video but I don't really feel much beyond that. It also kind of cheats by doing the whole "big fight in darkness so you can't see the detail" - but that's pretty standard stuff.

Exactly, and as I mentioned people are already talking about this relating it to IRL examples for better or for worse.

AtoMaki wrote:

Tyel wrote:
So this is very much "The Imperium and Humanity is screwed."

Yeah, and it is off-putting because it should be "The Imperium is going strong, and (because of that) Humanity is screwed."

Agreed again, that's exactly the point being made by GW. I've just been following some of the controversies surrounding criticism of gatekeepers whether justifiable or not.

Listen through the trailer again, nearing the end Guilliman says "Belief will not save us", "Lies will not protect us"

Truth!

Ok is it sad we have to take this lesson from 40k? or that we have to learn it at all?

 Adeptekon wrote:

Guff

I could comment further on how ridiculous what you're saying is, but at this point I can only assume you're trolling; because to genuinely take any life lessons from 40k at all, much less something as shallow as this trailer, is frankly insane.

catbarf wrote:...It's a Saturday morning cartoon setting for a toy soldier tabletop game. The overwhelming majority of Black Library novels are pulpy action schlock.

If someone's reading 40K fiction and thinks they're partaking in sophisticated satire of the human condition, they need to get out more.

I doubt I could put it any better than that.

 MalusCalibur wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:

Guff

I could comment further on how ridiculous what you're saying is, but at this point I can only assume you're trolling; because to genuinely take any life lessons from 40k at all, much less something as shallow as this trailer, is frankly insane.

catbarf wrote:...It's a Saturday morning cartoon setting for a toy soldier tabletop game. The overwhelming majority of Black Library novels are pulpy action schlock.

If someone's reading 40K fiction and thinks they're partaking in sophisticated satire of the human condition, they need to get out more.

I doubt I could put it any better than that.

I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt, for what it's worth from your perspective which is presumably far less cynical on society. I assure you there's an actual discussion being had. If I may make an assumption, you don't sound much the post-modernist type or interested entertaining the ideas here, which is perfectly alright. However when it comes to Guilliman in this trailer I think he very well may be just one that can.

 Adeptekon wrote:

Agreed again, that's exactly the point being made by GW.

No, GW's point is that the Imperium is failing (despite what its propaganda is saying) and with it, Humanity is failing too. And the Big Hero is really SAD about it, but that's a defining narrative in Nobledark settings. It wouldn't stick out from, say, Lord of the Rings or Halo, but Warhammer 40k? Eeeeehhh...

 tauist wrote:
I felt the ligthing of the scenes was too dark

This is deliberate in order to hide shortcuts and lack of detail and such to make it less work for the animators.

On other things touched on in this thread.
- 40k USED to be satire. It has since become a parody of itself and lost all pretension of anything other than being a Saturday Morning Cartoon

- attributing any higher meaning to a 40k trailer is certainly and interesting thought experiment. Death of the Author indeed.

- the Imperium has ALWAYS been losing in 40k. Thats the point of the setting. Though since Kids These Days don't like settings and want an ongoing narrative doled out to them because their imagination has been killed by phone and the You Tubes so they need stories dictated to them rather than creating their own and and an ongoing narrative needs things constantly happening.

- I guess every edition (if the hype even lasts past the first few novels and campaign books) is going to be a case of "forget those guys THESE guys are the new threat this week!". Remember when necrons were going to be the super bad of an edition? And there was going to be a big thing with the AdMech getting a hold of blackstone? And the Silent King arrived into the galaxy to a resounding "oh, that guy?" And nothing of note happened? GW keeps taking lore set up by prior, better writers to drive player created scenarios and narratives land burning them down for the sake of "story progression" without really having anything to put back in its place. The Silent King exemplifies why this sucks. Its takes any mystery surrounding him and what he COULD do and the implicatipns that it would have on the setting and reduces it to a statline and a blurb in the codex.

 Sim-Life wrote:
- the Imperium has ALWAYS been losing in 40k

I'm fairly sure this isn't true. The point of the setting is that humanity is always losing even if the Imperium is winning, because the difference is marginal between what the Imperium is doing and the worst its enemies can do. Factions were perfectly matched and everyone won some and lost some so nothing changed because nothing could change, there was only war. The Imperium unironically being humanity's hope for survival is a recent development that roots in the setting becoming a parody of itself.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
- the Imperium has ALWAYS been losing in 40k

I'm fairly sure this isn't true. The point of the setting is that humanity is always losing even if the Imperium is winning, because the difference is marginal between what the Imperium is doing and the worst its enemies can do. Factions were perfectly matched and everyone won some and lost some so nothing changed because nothing could change, there was only war. The Imperium unironically being humanity's hope for survival is a recent development that roots in the setting becoming a parody of itself.

Tau are perfectly matched with the Imperium? The Imperium could literally wipe the Tau off of the map if it got the notion to. The only reason they don't is that they aren't worth the resources. The Imperium is the dominant force of the galaxy at the point where 40k starts and its basically starting its inevitable collapse. Thats why the setting is grimdark. The Imperium's screwed, there is no winning for humanity and no way to stem the tide. The empire is too vast and its enemies too numerous for humanity to fight back against and its gigantic size is exactly the reason for its collapse and ironically its also the only thing slowing the collapse down. It might take a few millenia or ten but humanities defeat is pretty much inevitable at this point.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
- the Imperium has ALWAYS been losing in 40k

I'm fairly sure this isn't true. The point of the setting is that humanity is always losing even if the Imperium is winning, because the difference is marginal between what the Imperium is doing and the worst its enemies can do. Factions were perfectly matched and everyone won some and lost some so nothing changed because nothing could change, there was only war. The Imperium unironically being humanity's hope for survival is a recent development that roots in the setting becoming a parody of itself.

Tau are perfectly matched with the Imperium?

This was established way before the Tau became a thing. You can say that the Tau was already the shape of things to come.

 Sim-Life wrote:
but humanities defeat is pretty much inevitable at this point

That's why it is a 'Dark' setting. The 'Grim' part is that the "defeat" is not inevitable but actually a thing of the past, and the current conflict is just to decide which villain gets to tear down everything. And it is satiric because the Imperium not only has zero self-awareness (like everyone else) but operates by the Peacemaker Principle of "we will save humanity even if we have to murder every last man, woman, and child to do it."

Pretty simple. Imperium will be pushed back to a fight around mars earth and then they will push back and win. Probably go on for 5 years

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:

Agreed again, that's exactly the point being made by GW.

No, GW's point is that the Imperium is failing (despite what its propaganda is saying) and with it, Humanity is failing too. And the Big Hero is really SAD about it, but that's a defining narrative in Nobledark settings. It wouldn't stick out from, say, Lord of the Rings or Halo, but Warhammer 40k? Eeeeehhh...

Not sure were we got off track? I reply, you reply, I agree, you say no? Tell me something new?

The only thing of value I found in this trailer was the announcement of 10th edition. The cgi was very nice an all sure hurray for GW's cgi improvements?
No meaning, no morals, no analogies, nothing. But I am very happy that the OP seems to have fond the answer to the meaning of life from a game trailer.

Warhammer 40,000 SSDD setting with new rules!

Sim-Life wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I felt the ligthing of the scenes was too dark

This is deliberate in order to hide shortcuts and lack of detail and such to make it less work for the animators.

Nothing wrong with a daytime setting, but beyond the mood factor, I think it's arguable that Iron Within was much better animation, and much darker than this, but it's also an example of what I dislike during battle sequences. Super dark, cut and skip action, screen wobbling all over the place in attempt to place you in the mix, feels more like someone with unsteady hands trying to get this all on cam. I didn't really get too much of that feeling in this trailer.

warhead01 wrote:The only thing of value I found in this trailer was the announcement of 10th edition. The cgi was very nice an all sure hurray for GW's cgi improvements?
No meaning, no morals, no analogies, nothing. But I am very happy that the OP seems to have fond the answer to the meaning of life from a game trailer.

Warhammer 40,000 SSDD setting with new rules!

Hey at least you're not offended by a few musings over a fantasy game. I'll think twice before do something like this again in the face of jaded gnosticism.

 Adeptekon wrote:

warhead01 wrote:The only thing of value I found in this trailer was the announcement of 10th edition. The cgi was very nice an all sure hurray for GW's cgi improvements?
No meaning, no morals, no analogies, nothing. But I am very happy that the OP seems to have fond the answer to the meaning of life from a game trailer.

Warhammer 40,000 SSDD setting with new rules!

Hey at least you're not offended by a few musings over a fantasy game. I'll think twice before do something like this again in the face of jaded gnosticism.

Do what ever makes you happy. I'm actually very disconnected from the vast majority of media people like to consume so I was wondering if what you were seeing in this trailer was something int he zeitgeist I wouldn't even know about or maybe news related in irl. But was not able to discern what it was you found so meaningful.
and while I see little value in the trailer my comment was meant to be just a little humorous regarding your opening post and musings.

Thought for the day - Be just and fear not.