Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

but this time it will be different, just wait until you get all the information
if it is still that bad, wait for the first codex, and the fist CA
and no worry, with 11th they will finally solve all the problems and make it a game

PS: a good reason why GW can do that while others fail is that they have a solid customer base which does not play the game
there are different survey out that ~50% of the people having an army, never played that game

so all the negativity from the gaming side does not matter for them as they just collect and paint
but do it because they eventually can have a game with their collection, they never will but they might

and from those that play, a lot of people are driven by tournaments, as even the narrative players live from the local community that focus around events
and the people use 40k for their events because it is the game everyone plays and were everyone has models

and the gaming side just ignores a lot of issues because they can get the rules for free, people don't mind the issues and constant change because they don't have to pay it but pirate it
but that away and let people pay for all the rules and force them to pay the original models, the situation will be very different

this was one of the problems with PP, they copied GW but without the "pirate the rules and use cheaper models to play because we make money with the collectors"

I'm reasonably optimistic about the direction. 9th was too lethal? Lets reduce the lethality. People didn't like all the subfactions, purity bonuses and dozens of stratagems? Lets cut them down to size.

Even the Gambit rule is a good idea "conceptually" - I'm just not sure it does what its seemingly meant to do.

Like Spoletta said, I'd have preferred some sort of alternate concrete win condition - but I'm not sure how you'd ever balance that. A game coming down to "do you roll a 10, 11, 12 etc on the final dice roll" isn't really indicative of skill if you succeed, or non-skill if you fail. Its just luck. Yes there's skill to get to that position - but moving fast units to table corners isn't overly difficult.

And sure - if you are getting stomped, getting 30VP won't be enough to catch up and therefore it won't matter. But that's the point. The less likely it is to happen, the more gimmicky and un-earned it will feel when it does.

I don't think its a deal-breaker. But I don't think its the best approach.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
We've already seen balanced 10th is simplified balance. But now gambits exist. You losing? Okay reveal this card roll 2d6 on a 12+ score 30 vp. My current pick for first nerf.

You think it needs a nerf?

No, if anything it needs a buff lmao, its gonna be sooo trivial to deny your opponent the opportunity to even roll dice lol

Tyel wrote:
I'm reasonably optimistic about the direction. 9th was too lethal? Lets reduce the lethality. People didn't like all the subfactions, purity bonuses and dozens of stratagems? Lets cut them down to size.

Even the Gambit rule is a good idea "conceptually" - I'm just not sure it does what its seemingly meant to do.

Like Spoletta said, I'd have preferred some sort of alternate concrete win condition - but I'm not sure how you'd ever balance that. A game coming down to "do you roll a 10, 11, 12 etc on the final dice roll" isn't really indicative of skill if you succeed, or non-skill if you fail. Its just luck. Yes there's skill to get to that position - but moving fast units to table corners isn't overly difficult.

And sure - if you are getting stomped, getting 30VP won't be enough to catch up and therefore it won't matter. But that's the point. The less likely it is to happen, the more gimmicky and un-earned it will feel when it does.

I don't think its a deal-breaker. But I don't think its the best approach.

You could be right, but I don't think you can get a feel for how that decision tree develops without playing the game. You could play 30 games and never see a viable opportunity to turn a win with a gambit. Some other guy might go for the gambit every single time and maybe gets lucky once in 30 games. The likelihood that you encounter that regularly is pretty slim.

It's hard to conceptualize though, because we have no way of visualizing how many models are on the table when these decisions are made until we play the new datasheets enough. At the bottom of 3 it's possible there could still be a lot of units left. If they can tie you up on primary and still get to corners - well played, potentially.

Tyel wrote:
A game coming down to "do you roll a 10, 11, 12 etc on the final dice roll" isn't really indicative of skill if you succeed, or non-skill if you fail. Its just luck. Yes there's skill to get to that position - but moving fast units to table corners isn't overly difficult.

its not just a roll, and if you manage to keep your fast units alive for the whole game, after 2 turns of telegraphing what your plan is (and even if you manage to do so, is more likely to fail than not) then you deserve the win, it IS an alternate wincon that only let you get the points 27% of the time when you manage it (and even with those points, you might still not win

One flaw I do see is that if the gambit player goes first they have a turn to 'get away' while the rest of their army speed bumps. If you don't have enough models to cover primary and chase then it could put you in a pickle if they get a lucky roll. But even all that requires lots of decision making and I am very interested to see it play out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You could be right, but I don't think you can get a feel for how that decision tree develops without playing the game. You could play 30 games and never see a viable opportunity to turn a win with a gambit. Some other guy might go for the gambit every single time and maybe gets lucky once in 30 games. The likelihood that you encounter that regularly is pretty slim.

It's hard to conceptualize though, because we have no way of visualizing how many models are on the table when these decisions are made until we play the new datasheets enough. At the bottom of 3 it's possible there could still be a lot of units left. If they can tie you up on primary and still get to corners - well played, potentially.

The interesting question is going to be how things breakdown if both players activate their Gambit.

Maybe I'm biased from playing DE here - but I just don't see how difficult its going to be to keep something alive (mainly by hiding), then punt it into the corners for turn 5. As I see it an objective of this edition is that we aren't people tabled by the bottom of turn 3. You are right that we don't know the datasheets - but I imagine fast stuff will continue to be fast.

I can see gambits being super unpopular in tournaments where margin of victory is a factor.

You could, through solid plans and cunning game play, be thrashing your opponent, only for them to drastically reduce your margin of victory with a single, flukey roll.

Wayniac wrote:
The skepticism/wailing is based on seeing what GW has done every single edition over the past 30 years. At some point you stop falling for the "I'm sorry I hit you honey, I won't do it again I promise!" excuses and, even if you're hopeful like I am, that hope is tempered by knowing their track record says it'll happen again. One of GW's own 40k quotes of the day is "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment" and I think it's pretty apt for this.

Ah good, the ever-popular domestic abuse comparison. Glad we're keeping things in perspective.

Wayniac wrote:
If anything, GW is the only company I've seen that continues to get a pass for always going back to their old ways, every single time and no matter the marketing BS they throw out to hype it up. Everyone else who tries gets rightly lambasted and usually ends up failing, but not GeeDubs. GW could sell you literal gak and people would be saying how it's not so bad, but if Warlord or Mantic or Privateer did the same thing, it'd be a laughingstock. Only GW gets away with doing this every time and always being forgiven.

Saw this same junk when 8th came. They hyped it as the literal second coming, it literally killed Warmachine overnight at my FLGS and had a 40k resurgence when people were all like 7th was trash but this is "new GW", they've changed guys trust me, and in true GW fashion turned into garbage once the codex creep started. Same in 9th. I have no reason to think 10th will be any different because GW's marketing doofuses say it will be.

I'm no fan of GW for competitive play. It genuinely confuses me why so many people try to treat it like some hyper-competitive eSport. However, it's clear GW know what their audience wants. We have seen a massive increase in participation and revenue since 8th edition. More accurately, I think it's been since the end of the Tom Kirby era and it applies not just to 40k. You can decry them as doofuses, idiots, semi-literate chimpanzees or any other insult you want to throw out, but whatever they're doing, it works, and I suspect that's because GW know their own market better than any single group of gamers do. It sounds like the game has been successful where you are, just not in the way you would prefer. You seem to be going down the classic route of "everyone's having fun wrong", rather than trying to understand why a particular style of play has been so successful.

To be clear, I think GW's rules are pretty poor from a competitive POV. Their balance needs a lot of work. I can't think of anything I'd rather do less than play a whole weekend of tournament 40k. They do seem to be trying to improve balance, with mixed results. But I acknowledge their approach has worked for GW and made them very successful. That style of game isn't for me, but I have a group that doesn't exclusively play that way and I can have fun playing a less cut-throat version of the game most of the time. Apparently you can't do that, which is unfortunate, but much of your anger is being directed at the wrong place.

Tyel wrote:
You could be right, but I don't think you can get a feel for how that decision tree develops without playing the game. You could play 30 games and never see a viable opportunity to turn a win with a gambit. Some other guy might go for the gambit every single time and maybe gets lucky once in 30 games. The likelihood that you encounter that regularly is pretty slim.

It's hard to conceptualize though, because we have no way of visualizing how many models are on the table when these decisions are made until we play the new datasheets enough. At the bottom of 3 it's possible there could still be a lot of units left. If they can tie you up on primary and still get to corners - well played, potentially.

And those units also need to be unable to score primaries which are quaranteed vs at best 27% odds.
The interesting question is going to be how things breakdown if both players activate their Gambit.

Maybe I'm biased from playing DE here - but I just don't see how difficult its going to be to keep something alive (mainly by hiding), then punt it into the corners for turn 5. As I see it an objective of this edition is that we aren't people tabled by the bottom of turn 3. You are right that we don't know the datasheets - but I imagine fast stuff will continue to be fast.

Do keep in mind Gambits are also somewhat All Or Nothing. So there’s going to be a decision to be made as to whether it’s really worth abandoning your existing Primary. Which will almost certainly also include consideration about your Secondary, and whether you can score some points from that.

I’m going to make a bold prediction here. Like, really bold.

Gambits won’t be a crutch to poor play throughout the game - but will offer someone a way back from a truly disastrous “the dice said no” turn or two,

We’ve all had turns or even games where Disobedient Dice firmly refuse to let you achieve anything. Nothing hits. Nothing saves. And whilst such games can absolutely still be a laugh, mostly at your own misfortune, they can still be frustrating, as you see any chance of a draw, let alone victory, vanish into the ether through no real fault of your own.

We’ve all had turns where we have absolutely botched it. We may have planned too far in advance. We may have simply blundered and forgot to move something. I mean, any individual game has a huge amount of moving parts to it, and we can all lose track of bits and bobs.

From such things we might be able to claw back from Absolutely Farcical Defeat through astute cunning and shrewd decision making. And Gambits will form part of that.

But, I don’t think we’re going to see Gambits simply deliver wins to people who haven’t otherwise worked for every victory point they can.

As I said this is a bold prediction. And happy to be proven wrong in due course.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
GW is the same. They litteraly expect people to pay and wait for rules, which may not fix the players problems. While at the same time acting, as if the Real® way to play the game was to fix the problems on your own. It is mind blowing crazy to expect to work for a normal company, but when you are a monopolist it makes 100% sense. What will people do? It is the dominant game, new people often won't even know something besides warhammer exists, 10-20-30y veterans have so much sunk cost in to the game, that if they didn't leave they will swallow everything GW gives them. And if someone leaves they leave, and they are no longer a GW problem. In fact they can be burned by GW games so much, that they may not even try to pick up games from other companies. So it is a double win for GW. The only thing that GW needs for the holy trifect is to start making models that bio degrade, to "save the planet".

And yet for all your clairvoyance... You're. Still. Here. Posting.

The ultimate non-argument. Reminds me of the conservatives that reply "HE LIVES IN YOUR HEAD RENT FREE" when discussing how awful Trump was and the consequences of his presidency.

You'd have better off not have replied to Karol instead of posting crap like "OH YOU STILL POST, CHRCKMATE".

Tyel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You could be right, but I don't think you can get a feel for how that decision tree develops without playing the game. You could play 30 games and never see a viable opportunity to turn a win with a gambit. Some other guy might go for the gambit every single time and maybe gets lucky once in 30 games. The likelihood that you encounter that regularly is pretty slim.

It's hard to conceptualize though, because we have no way of visualizing how many models are on the table when these decisions are made until we play the new datasheets enough. At the bottom of 3 it's possible there could still be a lot of units left. If they can tie you up on primary and still get to corners - well played, potentially.

The interesting question is going to be how things breakdown if both players activate their Gambit.

Maybe I'm biased from playing DE here - but I just don't see how difficult its going to be to keep something alive (mainly by hiding), then punt it into the corners for turn 5. As I see it an objective of this edition is that we aren't people tabled by the bottom of turn 3. You are right that we don't know the datasheets - but I imagine fast stuff will continue to be fast.

There's a point where you're probably telegraphing that you're going to gambit. Transports will likely force you to buy a squad to take them so that you don't have empty venoms zipping around from the start.

I think this will largely be irrelevant in tournaments as no top player is going to gamble not getting max or close to max score as they can push them out of the running. Tournaments will probably exclude them anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
GW is the same. They litteraly expect people to pay and wait for rules, which may not fix the players problems. While at the same time acting, as if the Real® way to play the game was to fix the problems on your own. It is mind blowing crazy to expect to work for a normal company, but when you are a monopolist it makes 100% sense. What will people do? It is the dominant game, new people often won't even know something besides warhammer exists, 10-20-30y veterans have so much sunk cost in to the game, that if they didn't leave they will swallow everything GW gives them. And if someone leaves they leave, and they are no longer a GW problem. In fact they can be burned by GW games so much, that they may not even try to pick up games from other companies. So it is a double win for GW. The only thing that GW needs for the holy trifect is to start making models that bio degrade, to "save the planet".

And yet for all your clairvoyance... You're. Still. Here. Posting.

The ultimate non-argument. Reminds me of the conservatives that reply "HE LIVES IN YOUR HEAD RENT FREE" when discussing how awful Trump was and the consequences of his presidency.

You'd have better off not have replied to Karol instead of posting crap like "OH YOU STILL POST, CHRCKMATE".

I'm just making a point to mark people who very clearly would never fall for GW's shenanigans when they try and muscle into a future discussion to pretend like they know the game lest they reveal themselves as hypocrites.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
GW is the same. They litteraly expect people to pay and wait for rules, which may not fix the players problems. While at the same time acting, as if the Real® way to play the game was to fix the problems on your own. It is mind blowing crazy to expect to work for a normal company, but when you are a monopolist it makes 100% sense. What will people do? It is the dominant game, new people often won't even know something besides warhammer exists, 10-20-30y veterans have so much sunk cost in to the game, that if they didn't leave they will swallow everything GW gives them. And if someone leaves they leave, and they are no longer a GW problem. In fact they can be burned by GW games so much, that they may not even try to pick up games from other companies. So it is a double win for GW. The only thing that GW needs for the holy trifect is to start making models that bio degrade, to "save the planet".

And yet for all your clairvoyance... You're. Still. Here. Posting.

The ultimate non-argument. Reminds me of the conservatives that reply "HE LIVES IN YOUR HEAD RENT FREE" when discussing how awful Trump was and the consequences of his presidency.

You'd have better off not have replied to Karol instead of posting crap like "OH YOU STILL POST, CHRCKMATE".

I'm just making a point to mark people who very clearly would never fall for GW's shenanigans when they try and muscle into a future discussion to pretend like they know the game lest they reveal themselves as hypocrites.

Karol isn't going out buying a bunch of models, and seems to mostly have kept up with the rule books. Nothing about what he posted there was hypocritical. You made no point.

I'm talking future discussions. If people want to come and make silly, absurd or insulting comments then they can put their money where their mouth it and not buy GW product. And then when 10th is out they can't pretend they understand the game they never bought into.

Am I being absurd myself? Absolutely. At the same time I'm pretty much over this stuff or having to put a clause on every post that no, I don't think this is the most magical edition ever simply because people can't separate their disdain for GW to have actual meaningful discussion.

 kodos wrote:
but this time it will be different, just wait until you get all the information
if it is still that bad, wait for the first codex, and the fist CA
and no worry, with 11th they will finally solve all the problems and make it a game

PS: a good reason why GW can do that while others fail is that they have a solid customer base which does not play the game
there are different survey out that ~50% of the people having an army, never played that game

so all the negativity from the gaming side does not matter for them as they just collect and paint
but do it because they eventually can have a game with their collection, they never will but they might

and from those that play, a lot of people are driven by tournaments, as even the narrative players live from the local community that focus around events
and the people use 40k for their events because it is the game everyone plays and were everyone has models

and the gaming side just ignores a lot of issues because they can get the rules for free, people don't mind the issues and constant change because they don't have to pay it but pirate it
but that away and let people pay for all the rules and force them to pay the original models, the situation will be very different

this was one of the problems with PP, they copied GW but without the "pirate the rules and use cheaper models to play because we make money with the collectors"

So wait...40k players are only playing 40k because the rules are free and you can use cheaper proxy models...but people use 40k for events because everyone has models...but the rules are terrible...but people are playing the game anyway? Despite the fact that everyone is just pirating rules and is simultaneously using all proxy models and 0 proxy models?

Also, 50% of people who own 40k armies have never played the game? Source: trust me bro?

Oh, and painters somehow aren't leading the charge on proxying/3d printing models despite there be even less of a reason to avoid doing so?

Nothing in that screed makes sense. I wish I had the Billy Madison: 'May god have mercy on your soul' gif saved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm talking future discussions. If people want to come and make silly, absurd or insulting comments then they can put their money where their mouth it and not buy GW product. And then when 10th is out they can't pretend they understand the game they never bought into.

Am I being absurd myself? Absolutely. At the same time I'm pretty much over this stuff or having to put a clause on every post that no, I don't think this is the most magical edition ever simply because people can't separate their disdain for GW to have actual meaningful discussion.

75% of the most vocal detractors on this forum have played maybe 1 game of ninth, if any at all. I'm not even convinced that Unit, for example, even owns any 40k models that aren't also usable in Heresy.

Wayniac wrote:
The skepticism/wailing is based on seeing what GW has done every single edition over the past 30 years. At some point you stop falling for the "I'm sorry I hit you honey, I won't do it again I promise!" excuses and, even if you're hopeful like I am, that hope is tempered by knowing their track record says it'll happen again. One of GW's own 40k quotes of the day is "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment" and I think it's pretty apt for this.

This right here is why nothing you say has any merit.
Continuing to play a GW game is in no way comparable to the very real problem of domestic violence.

Wayniac wrote:
If anything, GW is the only company I've seen that continues to get a pass for always going back to their old ways, every single time and no matter the marketing BS they throw out to hype it up. Everyone else who tries gets rightly lambasted and usually ends up failing, but not GeeDubs. GW could sell you literal gak and people would be saying how it's not so bad, but if Warlord or Mantic or Privateer did the same thing, it'd be a laughingstock. Only GW gets away with doing this every time and always being forgiven.

Saw this same junk when 8th came. They hyped it as the literal second coming, it literally killed Warmachine overnight at my FLGS and had a 40k resurgence when people were all like 7th was trash but this is "new GW", they've changed guys trust me, and in true GW fashion turned into garbage once the codex creep started. Same in 9th. I have no reason to think 10th will be any different because GW's marketing doofuses say it will be.

This is a game. If you decide you don't like the game (or a particular edition of it) for whatever reason? Leave. Quit. Go play something else*. Beyond your circle of immediate friends nobody in the world will know or care. Not even GW.

*And for anyone who claims "But GW is a monopoly...."? They aren't. There's plenty of games out there of every genre/scale/price range/quality/complexity you could want - and as you're reading this on-line I know you have access to them. Pick one that looks interesting.


Now about 40k 8th killing Warmachine overnight at your local shop? You've got to ask WHY?
Had PP done something to alienate those players & the coming of 40k 8e was at just the right moment? Were those WM/H players also 40k players who'd grown dissatisfied with whatever edition & were taking a break by playing something else (remember, GWs not a monopoly) until they thought 40k improved? Was there a sudden growth of NEW 40k players? Did those WM players stop gaming or did they shift to 40k?
Did you ever even ask the (former) WM players why they quit WM?
Something happened & it wasn't just GW proclaiming that the next best edition since sliced bread had arrived.

mrFickle wrote:
If the th is going to be that much simpler to learn and play do you think the game will become more balanced aswell?

My logic is that GW made the game so complicated with too many data point to adjust that creating balance was too difficult for them to achieve balance so they created the cycle of making armies OP and then nerfing them (this also seemed to help sales)

But if they got an easier job then balance might be achievable??

I think there's a decent chance that the initial release will be better balanced, but it likely won't last the whole edition.

Overall, I like that they're gonna have the initial batch of rules for free, so you can dip your feet in without dropping tons of moolah on soon-to-be-obsolete books.

why should a painter use proxies?
I really want to paint the new Tyranids, so I buy some 3D prints that are similar but different?

Have you ever looked at painting/model conventions, you are not going to see any proxy because there is no reason to do so

people proxy/3D print because it is cheaper for gaming, were you need the same unit/model several times the models you need change over time with new rules/codex

and yes, a lot of people just play because Wahapedia and Battlescribe are a thing, they won't pay for the rules and if Wahapedia disappears they are gone

if you really think the painters are leading the 3D printed market and the players are the ones who pay the full priced originals, you have neither visit a painting convention nor a tournament.

ccs wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
The skepticism/wailing is based on seeing what GW has done every single edition over the past 30 years. At some point you stop falling for the "I'm sorry I hit you honey, I won't do it again I promise!" excuses and, even if you're hopeful like I am, that hope is tempered by knowing their track record says it'll happen again. One of GW's own 40k quotes of the day is "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment" and I think it's pretty apt for this.

This right here is why nothing you say has any merit.
Continuing to play a GW game is in no way comparable to the very real problem of domestic violence.

Wayniac wrote:
If anything, GW is the only company I've seen that continues to get a pass for always going back to their old ways, every single time and no matter the marketing BS they throw out to hype it up. Everyone else who tries gets rightly lambasted and usually ends up failing, but not GeeDubs. GW could sell you literal gak and people would be saying how it's not so bad, but if Warlord or Mantic or Privateer did the same thing, it'd be a laughingstock. Only GW gets away with doing this every time and always being forgiven.

Saw this same junk when 8th came. They hyped it as the literal second coming, it literally killed Warmachine overnight at my FLGS and had a 40k resurgence when people were all like 7th was trash but this is "new GW", they've changed guys trust me, and in true GW fashion turned into garbage once the codex creep started. Same in 9th. I have no reason to think 10th will be any different because GW's marketing doofuses say it will be.

This is a game. If you decide you don't like the game (or a particular edition of it) for whatever reason? Leave. Quit. Go play something else*. Beyond your circle of immediate friends nobody in the world will know or care. Not even GW.

*And for anyone who claims "But GW is a monopoly...."? They aren't. There's plenty of games out there of every genre/scale/price range/quality/complexity you could want - and as you're reading this on-line I know you have access to them. Pick one that looks interesting.


Now about 40k 8th killing Warmachine overnight at your local shop? You've got to ask WHY?
Had PP done something to alienate those players & the coming of 40k 8e was at just the right moment? Were those WM/H players also 40k players who'd grown dissatisfied with whatever edition & were taking a break by playing something else (remember, GWs not a monopoly) until they thought 40k improved? Was there a sudden growth of NEW 40k players? Did those WM players stop gaming or did they shift to 40k?
Did you ever even ask the (former) WM players why they quit WM?
Something happened & it wasn't just GW proclaiming that the next best edition since sliced bread had arrived.

The idea that the game that YOU like and think should be the game everybody plays is worse and less enjoyable than 40k is a real hard pill to swallow for a lot of people here.

I love MCP. I think it's the best skirmish game on the market and that it doesn't get anywhere near the love it should. I also think it's in a better place than 40k currently. That doesn't mean I don't understand that people just aren't interested for a multitude of reason up to and including 'they like 40k better.'

ccs wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
The skepticism/wailing is based on seeing what GW has done every single edition over the past 30 years. At some point you stop falling for the "I'm sorry I hit you honey, I won't do it again I promise!" excuses and, even if you're hopeful like I am, that hope is tempered by knowing their track record says it'll happen again. One of GW's own 40k quotes of the day is "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment" and I think it's pretty apt for this.

This right here is why nothing you say has any merit.
Continuing to play a GW game is in no way comparable to the very real problem of domestic violence.

Wayniac wrote:
If anything, GW is the only company I've seen that continues to get a pass for always going back to their old ways, every single time and no matter the marketing BS they throw out to hype it up. Everyone else who tries gets rightly lambasted and usually ends up failing, but not GeeDubs. GW could sell you literal gak and people would be saying how it's not so bad, but if Warlord or Mantic or Privateer did the same thing, it'd be a laughingstock. Only GW gets away with doing this every time and always being forgiven.

Saw this same junk when 8th came. They hyped it as the literal second coming, it literally killed Warmachine overnight at my FLGS and had a 40k resurgence when people were all like 7th was trash but this is "new GW", they've changed guys trust me, and in true GW fashion turned into garbage once the codex creep started. Same in 9th. I have no reason to think 10th will be any different because GW's marketing doofuses say it will be.

This is a game. If you decide you don't like the game (or a particular edition of it) for whatever reason? Leave. Quit. Go play something else*. Beyond your circle of immediate friends nobody in the world will know or care. Not even GW.

*And for anyone who claims "But GW is a monopoly...."? They aren't. There's plenty of games out there of every genre/scale/price range/quality/complexity you could want - and as you're reading this on-line I know you have access to them. Pick one that looks interesting.


Now about 40k 8th killing Warmachine overnight at your local shop? You've got to ask WHY?
Had PP done something to alienate those players & the coming of 40k 8e was at just the right moment? Were those WM/H players also 40k players who'd grown dissatisfied with whatever edition & were taking a break by playing something else (remember, GWs not a monopoly) until they thought 40k improved? Was there a sudden growth of NEW 40k players? Did those WM players stop gaming or did they shift to 40k?
Did you ever even ask the (former) WM players why they quit WM?
Something happened & it wasn't just GW proclaiming that the next best edition since sliced bread had arrived.

So firstly moral grandstanding (not comparing GW to an abusive relationship) isn't an argument. Its an appeal to emotion. The comparison is apt because GW fans DO do a lot "but they said they were sorry and promised to do better". If you can think of a better comparison then feel free to present it.

Secondly no, GW don't have a LITERAL monopoly but they might as well. Almost all of us who are dissatisfied with GW have tried starting new wargames and more often than not people just gravitate back to 40k after a few weeks. There's a lot of reasons for this. No one wants to learn new rules, buy new models, ease of availability, ease of finding a game etc. For all intents and purposes GW MIGHT AS WELL have a monopoly. It's like saying "well no one is FORCING you to watch Disney stuff" when lile 80% of the entertainment media created is by Disney.

As for 8th 40k killing WMH, well PP is pretty much to blame on that one.

GW doesn't have a monopoly. Star Wars and Marvel do quite well on their own. GoT still does well. Battletech is making a resurgence.

The difference between those and GW? GW always has releases. They always have new stuff for some person. Star Wars will eventually reach the end of what it can release. Maybe GW will some day, too, but they're working real hard to spin out tons of other games with Old World and Epic on the horizon again.

GW DOES have a monopoly on twisted gothic sci-fi and that can be appealing all on it's own. It's more than just Empire vs Rebels ( and some minor side factions ). It's more than just big mechs. It's big armies without sacrificing on details as other games this size might - often to it's own detriment.

ERJAK wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm talking future discussions. If people want to come and make silly, absurd or insulting comments then they can put their money where their mouth it and not buy GW product. And then when 10th is out they can't pretend they understand the game they never bought into.

Am I being absurd myself? Absolutely. At the same time I'm pretty much over this stuff or having to put a clause on every post that no, I don't think this is the most magical edition ever simply because people can't separate their disdain for GW to have actual meaningful discussion.

75% of the most vocal detractors on this forum have played maybe 1 game of ninth, if any at all. I'm not even convinced that Unit, for example, even owns any 40k models that aren't also usable in Heresy.

Source: Trust me, bro

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Source: Trust me, bro

We have had posters relatively recently go "40k sucks, its sucked for 30 years. Btw I've not bought a model since 5th or played a game since 7th."

My main concerns about balance and mechanics in 10th relate to the fact I think 9th is quite good. Sorry if anyone reading this hates it, but there we are.
By contrast, I had very few fears over the 7th to 8th jump, because I didn't think it was possible to get much worse. I guess if it had, I've have used that as the opportunity to step away.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
GW doesn't have a monopoly. Star Wars and Marvel do quite well on their own. GoT still does well. Battletech is making a resurgence.

The difference between those and GW? GW always has releases. They always have new stuff for some person. Star Wars will eventually reach the end of what it can release. Maybe GW will some day, too, but they're working real hard to spin out tons of other games with Old World and Epic on the horizon again.

GW DOES have a monopoly on twisted gothic sci-fi and that can be appealing all on it's own. It's more than just Empire vs Rebels ( and some minor side factions ). It's more than just big mechs. It's big armies without sacrificing on details as other games this size might - often to it's own detriment.

GW will never run out of releases for 40K. They’ve built a galaxy where any old thing can happen and primed the lore with mystery’s that be solved with model releases. The old ones, the missing primarchs, Krorks and so on. There was no lore for TAU or necrons that I recall from 2nd or 3rd but here we are. Squats got squatted but the LOV are back

Star Wars is a universe that’s focused on movie and tv production so the game can’t break those worlds and has to tread more carefully despite the huge volume of lore that has been written for the Star Wars universe. It also is probably very low down the list of priorities for the IP owners due to the amount of revenue that comes from the movies, toys Lego and so on. So if the people running the game said we want to introduce some new characters I doubt they’d be allowed

the rules will suck, the rules have largely always sucked, the key is though the overall "experience" around the background and the models has always offset the fact that while the rules suck, they don't suck enough to go elsewhere

which is also why conceptually "better" games don't take over.

it turns out the rules sucking isn't as important as some people think

I wish they were better, by this point they should be damned near perfect, the fact they are not suggests they never will be, the fact the game is still popular suggests it will continue to not overly matter

 Sim-Life wrote:


So firstly moral grandstanding (not comparing GW to an abusive relationship) isn't an argument. Its an appeal to emotion. The comparison is apt because GW fans DO do a lot "but they said they were sorry and promised to do better". If you can think of a better comparison then feel free to present it.

How do people get away with such tripe? Can you not even see it?

MAKING THE COMPARISON IN THE FIRST PLACE IS ALSO AN APPEAL TO EMOTION, NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU THINK THE COMPARISON IS!!

PenitentJake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


So firstly moral grandstanding (not comparing GW to an abusive relationship) isn't an argument. Its an appeal to emotion. The comparison is apt because GW fans DO do a lot "but they said they were sorry and promised to do better". If you can think of a better comparison then feel free to present it.

How do people get away with such tripe? Can you not even see it?

MAKING THE COMPARISON IN THE FIRST PLACE IS ALSO AN APPEAL TO EMOTION, NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU THINK THE COMPARISON IS!!

No, making the comparison is a way to make the situation easier to explain. As I said if you can present a more apt comparison that explain the GW/Customer relationship present it and we'll use that but until then abusive relationship is the best we have.

And just by the by, companies can have an abusive relationship with their customers. It's not purely a term reserved for domestic situations.

Oh my god, stop the abusive relationship thing. Its vile.

I really don't enjoy modern 40k at all but get a bloody grip. These people you are talking to just have different tastes to you. That's it. And you come out with this crap.GW is a company looking to profit by appealing to as many as possible. Thats it. Don't like it? Walk away. This is not abuse, you can do so.


If you are genuinely in a position where it feels like an abusive relationship and you cannot leave yet still feel abused by the company, seek help. This is not an insult. Genuinely seek help, there's something going very wrong in your mind.

Dai wrote:
Oh my god, stop the abusive relationship thing. Its vile.

I really don't enjoy modern 40k at all but get a bloody grip. These people you are talking to just have different tastes to you. That's it. And you come out with this crap.GW is a company looking to profit by appealing to as many as possible. Thats it. Don't like it? Walk away. This is not abuse, you can do so.


If you are genuinely in a position where it feels like an abusive relationship and you cannot leave yet still feel abused by the company, seek help. This is not an insult. Genuinely seek help, there's something going very wrong in your mind.

You know shopping addictions are a thing and corporations like GW prey on people with them yes?