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So I will spoiler thread this but yes just some discussion points around the book and what peoples thoughts are.
Spoiler:
After reading I thoroughly enjoyed it. I do think all the fallen news since psychic awakening has been the Lion. It matches up very well with the events of this book, and being cut off for that long its not har dto believe he didn't know about Bobby G revive until Dante found him. I like the galaxy feeling like a huge space again, even Primarchs can be completely unaware of one another.
I do like his new forets walk ability. This is theory territory now, but I think it was the psychic awakening event that caused him to wake up and accidently find his way to this forest warp dimension. Which is clearly where the watchers come from too IMHO. It has unlocked some latent psychic ability within him to be able to traverse this dimension. Because the warp wasn't always chaos and danger. It's nice to see that the chaos bit is sitll just "part" of the warp not all of it. There is still plently of other warp areas unexplored.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Overall I enjoyed it.
Spoiler:
Clearly, The Lion has mellowed some. His return to find The Imperium essentially gone, and his dedication to founding his own protectorate (and in doing so, accepting Guilliman was maybe right with the Unremembered Empire) was cool.
It also explains why, given the situation, he didn’t immediately seek out his Chapter/Legion.
The Risen are interesting concept, and I’m particularly enamoured with them having Heresy era equipment. One was clearly a Cenobium, the other explicitly a Destroyer.
The conversations make sense, and The Lion’s approach of “I’m not going to force anyone to join me” was refreshing.
However, between Son of the Forest and AoO, I’m left feeling slightly cheated, as we’re yet to have a proper reckoning between The Lion, and the Dark Angels Chapter. But, all things in their own time, I guess.
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Clearly, The Lion has mellowed some. His return to find The Imperium essentially gone, and his dedication to founding his own protectorate (and in doing so, accepting Guilliman was maybe right with the Unremembered Empire) was cool.
It also explains why, given the situation, he didn’t immediately seek out his Chapter/Legion.
The Risen are interesting concept, and I’m particularly enamoured with them having Heresy era equipment. One was clearly a Cenobium, the other explicitly a Destroyer.
The conversations make sense, and The Lion’s approach of “I’m not going to force anyone to join me” was refreshing.
However, between Son of the Forest and AoO, I’m left feeling slightly cheated, as we’re yet to have a proper reckoning between The Lion, and the Dark Angels Chapter. But, all things in their own time, I guess.
That's just one of the downside of an ongoing series / 'living' background:
Spoiler:
You can't really ever finish a story relating to the metaplot completely in one book, you always need another unresolved plot line to hook you up for the next chapter - it's cliffhangers all the way down.
Clearly, The Lion has mellowed some. His return to find The Imperium essentially gone, and his dedication to founding his own protectorate (and in doing so, accepting Guilliman was maybe right with the Unremembered Empire) was cool.
It also explains why, given the situation, he didn’t immediately seek out his Chapter/Legion.
The Risen are interesting concept, and I’m particularly enamoured with them having Heresy era equipment. One was clearly a Cenobium, the other explicitly a Destroyer.
The conversations make sense, and The Lion’s approach of “I’m not going to force anyone to join me” was refreshing.
However, between Son of the Forest and AoO, I’m left feeling slightly cheated, as we’re yet to have a proper reckoning between The Lion, and the Dark Angels Chapter. But, all things in their own time, I guess.
That's just one of the downside of an ongoing series / 'living' background:
Spoiler:
You can't really ever finish a story relating to the metaplot completely in one book, you always need another unresolved plot line to hook you up for the next chapter - it's cliffhangers all the way down.
Spoiler:
Yeah I think this will happen in the 10th ed books the mix back into the "legion". If certain rumours are to be believed Dark Angels won't be in the space marines codex, they and blood angels are going back to their own "angels of death" codex.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
I’m particularly interest to see how The Lion reacts to the Second Founding and Codex Astartes.
He never agree to it, having been in stasis at the time. And given Inperium Nihilus is quite the frontier or abject awfulness, him going back to Legion Strength does make sense. A single, hammer blow force that few, if any, can truly stand against.
Granted it would still be a shadow of Crusade Era forces, where a Primarch had Titan Legions, Imperial Militia and colossal fleets at their beck and call. But being able to ram a few thousand Space Marines down the throat of any emergent threat is still going shake the Nihilus up.
Even just garrisoning every major planet with Astartes is going to change power dynamics.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m particularly interest to see how The Lion reacts to the Second Founding and Codex Astartes.
He never agree to it, having been in stasis at the time. And given Inperium Nihilus is quite the frontier or abject awfulness, him going back to Legion Strength does make sense. A single, hammer blow force that few, if any, can truly stand against.
Granted it would still be a shadow of Crusade Era forces, where a Primarch had Titan Legions, Imperial Militia and colossal fleets at their beck and call. But being able to ram a few thousand Space Marines down the throat of any emergent threat is still going shake the Nihilus up.
Even just garrisoning every major planet with Astartes is going to change power dynamics.
He's going the "protector of humanity" route, so it wouldn't surprise me if he runs with both Dark angels and Blood angels. The "angels of death". Using both chapters and their successors to essentially retake nihilus with almost crusade era Legion strength army. From a gameplay perspective it still works as he is sending strike forces to areas for take and control. But form a narrative standpoint he is on a mission from god.
Espetially now he can forest walk with others not just himself. So he could lead a small task force direct into enemy key areas and almost spec op remove a high priority target and get out. Leaving the enemy without a true leader etc and thus the overall army can do what they need.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/27 15:27:22
I genuinely hope the Lion doesn't try and do some sort of genuine Legion shenanigans beyond the close relationship the Unforgiven have. It would be such a lazy cop out to drive fan narrative that the Lion is cooler than Guilliman because he won't agree to the Codex.
Gert wrote: I genuinely hope the Lion doesn't try and do some sort of genuine Legion shenanigans beyond the close relationship the Unforgiven have. It would be such a lazy cop out to drive fan narrative that the Lion is cooler than Guilliman because he won't agree to the Codex.
We shall see how their brotherly meeting goes. I wreckon it will be a happy one overall but with a couple punches here and there.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Gert wrote: I genuinely hope the Lion doesn't try and do some sort of genuine Legion shenanigans beyond the close relationship the Unforgiven have. It would be such a lazy cop out to drive fan narrative that the Lion is cooler than Guilliman because he won't agree to the Codex.
It’s all about his pragmatism overall.
Right now, despite its name there’s not really an Imperium Nihilus. It lacks the centralised C&C that Imperium Sanctus has, however ropey that might even at the best of times.
But there are faces in solid need of kicking in. Renegades to annihilate. Xenos to be exterminated. Whilst yes, a Primarch is still able to make the most of any force at their disposal, amassing greater and grander forces is still going to help.
The main limiter of course is creating, training and arming such numbers. At least for now. We know each Chapter is, at least in theory, capable of maintaining its forces At Full Strength. What we don’t know is how much spare capacity each might have.
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Gert wrote: I genuinely hope the Lion doesn't try and do some sort of genuine Legion shenanigans beyond the close relationship the Unforgiven have. It would be such a lazy cop out to drive fan narrative that the Lion is cooler than Guilliman because he won't agree to the Codex.
It’s all about his pragmatism overall.
Right now, despite its name there’s not really an Imperium Nihilus. It lacks the centralised C&C that Imperium Sanctus has, however ropey that might even at the best of times.
But there are faces in solid need of kicking in. Renegades to annihilate. Xenos to be exterminated. Whilst yes, a Primarch is still able to make the most of any force at their disposal, amassing greater and grander forces is still going to help.
The main limiter of course is creating, training and arming such numbers. At least for now. We know each Chapter is, at least in theory, capable of maintaining its forces At Full Strength. What we don’t know is how much spare capacity each might have.
I think a chapter's ressources are somewhat self-scaling, i.e. there's not shortage of situations that would benefit from SM interventions, and thus any chapter expands its activities until it finds itself in a dynamic equilibrium between production and attrition. They can always answer yet another call for aid or launch a crusade against the manifold foes of humanity, 'spare' is not a concept they'd understand.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
There must be some scaling, otherwise they’d need significant external support to replace catastrophic losses.
But turning back to The Lion and Imperium Nihilus? Let’s consider what his Legion was up to during the Heresy. Namely, obliterating traitor home worlds and holdings, giving them fewer places to retreat to.
That…sounds like really good practice for Right Now, no?
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There must be some scaling, otherwise they’d need significant external support to replace catastrophic losses.
But turning back to The Lion and Imperium Nihilus? Let’s consider what his Legion was up to during the Heresy. Namely, obliterating traitor home worlds and holdings, giving them fewer places to retreat to.
That…sounds like really good practice for Right Now, no?
Indeed. Depends on how much Exterminatus-level weapon stockpiles the DA and their successors still have available, but the principle is sound. Unless they feel obliged to
Spoiler:
go hunting for Wyrmwood and Vashtorr, wo themselves are hunting for 'The Lock' right now, probably not to be heard of again for years while the narrative focus is elsewhere
I still want to have my Excindio murder-bots though!
The Lion being pragmatic doesn't mean he'll build a Legion, in fact, I'd argue the opposite is true. The Codex was necessary to prevent any leader, Primarch or Astartes, from gathering sufficient forces they could threaten the Imperium with.
Rebuilding the 1st Legion isn't a practical option for him. The High Lords, the Custodes, and Guilliman will all oppose it and the Lion doesn't nearly have the power base to fight the entire Imperium. Not even Guilliman managed to keep his personal army, the Unnumbered Sons, around for long due to the mounting political pressure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But turning back to The Lion and Imperium Nihilus? Let’s consider what his Legion was up to during the Heresy. Namely, obliterating traitor home worlds and holdings, giving them fewer places to retreat to.
That…sounds like really good practice for Right Now, no?
The thing is, he was able to do this because he had the support of Russ and Corax, all the while the greater part of the Traitor hosts had either been fragmented or had marched on Terra. Now his brothers are gone, their Legions split, the Traitors often operating out of Hell itself rather than hard locations, and all the other gribbles of the galaxy are in the way as well. He could certainly provide an anchor for Imperial forces to flock to but he won't be on a vengeance crusade.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/04/27 18:03:55
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Not just stockpiles (which being their Flagship, The Rock will have. And being Dark Angels “and then some”) but potentially the capacity and tech base to create more. Not necessarily endless amounts, but I’d wager enough that they won’t need to be massively conservative.
We’ll also need to consider how other forces out and about would react to The Lion and his Sons getting their Ming on.
Chaos forces, of at least some stripes, may see it as a challenge they can’t resist. Others might figure “sod that, can we avoid them please?”
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We’ll also need to consider how other forces out and about would react to The Lion and his Sons getting their Ming on.
Now in my head there's a dissonant chorus of Freddy Mercury and Brian Blessed, thank you for that I guess you could convert some Bloodbowl human to Flash Gordon quite easily... the HHSoS Kharon looks straight out of that movie anyway... dunnn-dunnn duh duh duh!
I hope he reforms the legion and that they go back to black and red colors or at least the inner guard use that paint scheme. That's the best paint scheme.
Boosykes wrote: I hope he reforms the legion and that they go back to black and red colors or at least the inner guard use that paint scheme. That's the best paint scheme.
They won't change colour scheme. There will be some fun dynamics though. Im looking forward to it.
One of my favourite moments from the book to be fair is the Lion learning about everything and I do love seeing the wise side of him we never really got to see.
Now he is more emotionally mature I feel as though he is more dangerous than he has ever been.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
On a silly note, as a fan of Fallout 4, I kind of want The Lion’s experience of making it to Imperium Sanctus to meet his brother is similar to the Fallout 4 experience of trying to get to a new mission.
Essentially….
Right, time to get on with the show. All my gubbins safely stowed. Weapons upgraded as much as I can and loaded. As much spare ammo as I can get my hands on. Stimpaks looking good. Power Armour fuelled and repaired, Buddy the same. Map location set…..
Un deux trois unt aaaaaaachtung!
Oh my, what a lovely wa
*random shooting, and a distant ricochet*
Oh, it’s a fight is it? I’ll take that bet!
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU’RE HARD ENOUGH!
*20 minutes of hyper violence later*
Right. Well. I’ve a lot of loot, a better weapon, and my Power Armour needs some TLC. Sod it. Back to camp to sort meself out
(Go back to the top of the quote, rinse and repeat ad infinitum)
And so when Guilliman visits Imperium Nihilus is well ordered with a pile of moaning, dying and dead enemies of mankind wishing they’d chosen another path in life.
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5500
2500 
I guess you could convert some Bloodbowl human to Flash Gordon quite easily... the