So Vashtorr the Arkifane isn't selling out:

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**Gert**

Why do all sub-factions need to:
A - Have a named character, especially if the Codex in question has loads already.
B - Need a named character that is the equal of another Codexes main leader.

The Aeldari Codex had the Phoenix Lords, Avatar of Khain, Eldrad, Yriel, Nightspear, and the Triumvirate of Ynnead. That's 13 characters.

**Breton**

Gert wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I'm not saying they're unimportant, just that there are more obvious choices for characters that would deserve getting miniatures because they're important figures of relevant legions, like Kor Phaeron or Honsou, for example. I'd admit though that Huron as most important renegade leader has his place. Maybe GW sells me more on Fabius if he got reintegrated in an upcoming Emperor's Children codex .
Still, I feel it's a bit as if you had Arjac and Njal for SW but Ragnar and Logan were missing.

Honsou is not important, at all, and I say this as someone who loves the Iron Warriors and Graham McNeill's books featuring them. He was an antagonist for Uriel Ventris who lost the first war he fought as the leader of his Warband that also got usurped by M'kar.
For Kor Phaeron and Erebus, they were important but they rapidly got eclipsed by others even in the Heresy. They were important in the past but not anymore.

Fabius Bile is the premier genesmith for any and all who can afford him. When Abaddon needs new Astartes, he goes to Fabius. When a Warband wants to get stronger, they go to Fabius. His skills are legendary to the point where at one time the Craftworlders, Drukhari, multiple Legions and Warbands (including the Word Bearers Dark Council), and even Fulgrim himself had contracts to either kill or capture him.
As for Huron, again he is as old as Rogue Trader and has had rules since 2nd Edition. His background is as impressive as any other named Chaos champion. He built a Legion strength force of Renegades, subjugated swathes of the Maelstrom, and became a rival to Abaddon in under a hundred years.

As before, now that the CSM Codex has dropped 4 Legions it leaves the roster pretty sparse and I agree that a couple of extra Characters would be a good idea to fill out the gaps. That being said, no other Legion deserves a new model before Huron.

I suspect a lot of these characters - if they come at all - will come sometime around when their Primarch lands as well. As far as Huron, he has no model, a bunch of the Legions have no centerpiece model like that either - I don't know that any deserve one before the others so much as they all deserve one. I also think you might be underestimating Honsou now that Ventris has a model as well. Making a Ventris/Honsou boxed set was a missed opportunity for GW.

**Daedalus81**

NorthernXY wrote:
Vashtorr can easily be found on eBay for 40% off MSRP. I know it won't be in a box, but you usually never see something that much off its regular price.

Thanks for the heads up. Just got me a cheap(er) model!

**Breton**

Gert wrote:
Why do all sub-factions need to:
A - Have a named character, especially if the Codex in question has loads already.
B - Need a named character that is the equal of another Codexes main leader.

The Aeldari Codex had the Phoenix Lords, Avatar of Khain, Eldrad, Yriel, Nightspear, and the Triumvirate of Ynnead. That's 13 characters.

All subfactions? Not really - the big and main ones? Yeah.

They should all have some sort of thematic centerpiece so they all get some love.
They should all have some sort of thematic centerpiece so that not every Chaos Invasion involves Abby and the Black Legion. Or Calgar and the Ultramarines. Or Calgar vs Abby.

**Gert**

Breton wrote:
I suspect a lot of these characters - if they come at all - will come sometime around when their Primarch lands as well. As far as Huron, he has no model, a bunch of the Legions have no centerpiece model like that either - I don't know that any deserve one before the others so much as they all deserve one. I also think you might be underestimating Honsou now that Ventris has a model as well. Making a Ventris/Honsou boxed set was a missed opportunity for GW.

Huron had a model up until a few months ago when it was rotated out alongside pretty much every other resin 40k model and still has rules in the current CSM Codex. The reason Huron deserves a new model is the same reason Abaddon, Kharn, and the others did. He hasn't had an updated model since 4th edition and is a major character in CSM lore, far more so than Kor Phaeron or Honsou. Just because the Legions started the Long War, doesn't mean they automatically should get a named character. I love the Iron Warriors and the Word Bearers, they were my first CSM armies and I continue to play the IVth in HH, but 40k CSM isn't just about the Legions and it shouldn't be. That's what Huron and the Red Corsairs represent.

**H.B.M.C.**

Breton wrote:
Making a Ventris/Honsou boxed set was a missed opportunity for GW.

Well, GW never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

**Platuan4th**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Breton wrote:
Making a Ventris/Honsou boxed set was a missed opportunity for GW.
Well, GW never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Except GW DID make a Ventris/Honsou set once.

**Tsagualsa**

Platuan4th wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Breton wrote:
Making a Ventris/Honsou boxed set was a missed opportunity for GW.
Well, GW never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Except GW DID make a Ventris/Honsou set once.

IIRC limited to either 500 or 1000 pieces

Things could be way worse (looking at you, Hasbro), but they could also be vastly better. Anyway, things do not point to immediate change in any direction, other than Leviathan being this year's make or break event. And buisness with the Embracer group is ever thightening, which might lead to interstinge developments on the corporate level in the near future, but not right now.

**Breton**

Gert wrote:
Breton wrote:
I suspect a lot of these characters - if they come at all - will come sometime around when their Primarch lands as well. As far as Huron, he has no model, a bunch of the Legions have no centerpiece model like that either - I don't know that any deserve one before the others so much as they all deserve one. I also think you might be underestimating Honsou now that Ventris has a model as well. Making a Ventris/Honsou boxed set was a missed opportunity for GW.

Huron had a model up until a few months ago when it was rotated out alongside pretty much every other resin 40k model and still has rules in the current CSM Codex. The reason Huron deserves a new model is the same reason Abaddon, Kharn, and the others did. He hasn't had an updated model since 4th edition and is a major character in CSM lore, far more so than Kor Phaeron or Honsou. Just because the Legions started the Long War, doesn't mean they automatically should get a named character. I love the Iron Warriors and the Word Bearers, they were my first CSM armies and I continue to play the IVth in HH, but 40k CSM isn't just about the Legions and it shouldn't be. That's what Huron and the Red Corsairs represent.

In that case I'd say the Legions that didn't have a character need one before Huron gets an update as they didn't really have one at all - unless their 30K model has 40K rules. All the subfactions should have at least one of these types of characters so they can rotate into the Summer Campaign type stuff more easily and on a somewhat even footing.

**Gert**

This is going nowhere and you just keep saying the same thing over and over.

**JNAProductions**

Most unique characters shouldn't have unique rules. They should be a certain set of options from generic characters.
Exceptions would be things like Primarchs. Vashtorr would be an exception too-but Huron, Calgar, Honsou, Badruk, Orikan... They should all be buildable from generic characters, in the rules.

**H.B.M.C.**

Why?

**Tyel**

Not a huge fan of the idea that special characters are just characters with a certain loadout.

But equally, not a fan that army selection rules are tied up with specific special characters. Certain ones are less obnoxious than others perhaps - but it still seems silly that "this force" only shows up with "commander X". As if he only ever runs around with the forces necessary for a 2k army size and such a collection of stuff could never group up in 40k.

In the wider sense, I think the bigger issue is making characters be interesting both as an idea, rules and models. I find SM especially struggle with the second, because there's so many of them all standing on each others toes.

I like Fabius because he is the only Chaos Apothecary. Sure his rules have been poor to bad for... the entire of 40k(?) but as a concept he's interesting - as rules, as model as idea.

Whereas... yeah, I don't care about Huron. I don't care about the Red Corsairs. "I'm a Chaos Lord" - okay get in line. "I have a flamer in my hand." "..." "I'm a very basic pysker for a turn because I have that thing from Jabba's Palace" - "....good for you?"

But other people may think differently and if he gets a cool new model that's great for them.

**JNAProductions**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why?

Because you should be able to customize your army. A lot. And unique characters eat into that design space without giving more than one option-take them or don’t.

**H.B.M.C.**

JNAProductions wrote:
Because you should be able to customize your army. A lot. And unique characters eat into that design space without giving more than one option-take them or don’t.

**Breton**

Gert wrote:
This is going nowhere and you just keep saying the same thing over and over.

You keep asking the same question.

Subfactions should all be fleshed out.

Why?

So subfactions can rotate into the fluff/summer campaigns etc on somewhat even footing and its not always Calgar vs Abby and a few NPCs. I'm happy the last one was DA vs Arikifane, but we're still missing more participation from the Xenos armies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Not a huge fan of the idea that special characters are just characters with a certain loadout.

But equally, not a fan that army selection rules are tied up with specific special characters. Certain ones are less obnoxious than others perhaps - but it still seems silly that "this force" only shows up with "commander X". As if he only ever runs around with the forces necessary for a 2k army size and such a collection of stuff could never group up in 40k.

In the wider sense, I think the bigger issue is making characters be interesting both as an idea, rules and models. I find SM especially struggle with the second, because there's so many of them all standing on each others toes.

I like Fabius because he is the only Chaos Apothecary. Sure his rules have been poor to bad for... the entire of 40k(?) but as a concept he's interesting - as rules, as model as idea.

Whereas... yeah, I don't care about Huron. I don't care about the Red Corsairs. "I'm a Chaos Lord" - okay get in line. "I have a flamer in my hand." "..." "I'm a very basic pysker for a turn because I have that thing from Jabba's Palace" - "....good for you?"

But other people may think differently and if he gets a cool new model that's great for them.

Well unique equipment often masquerades as special rules or vice-versa - think the Gauntlets of Ultramar. And there should be some of both - a special who turns the faction on it's head and a special who leans into being the face of the franchise so to speak - think the (what was it fifth edition?) where Azrael leaned into DA, while Belial and Sammael turns the force on it's head with regards to bikes and terminators. Of course that was also the last time (untile now) DA and Huron were really involved.

**Karol**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I fail to see how this and special characters are mutually exclusive, or why the presence of one would or should cut down on the other?

You know what actually eats into the design space? Limiting all your options to only that which is located on the specific sprue for that unit. Designing models so that kitbashing is a thing of the past.

The fact that Marneus Calgar or Abaddon or the Swarmlord exist doesn't cause this.

Yes, but wishing it to be different is a bit like wishing that when politician say they are intreducing a tax for 1-2 years, it ends up being gone after 1-2 years.
GWs last 2 edition is making moves, so that everything is sprue only and "made by GW studio". No outside artists, no named sculptors etc. They really don't want people to ask for Diaznetts.

**Breton**

I was doing some window shopping on the website today, and

A) a lot of really weird still is "moving fast" - Drop Pods I get but Defilers, a couple odd named characters, and the Cassius Kill Team though?

B) Mix that in with a whole bunch of stuff being Temporarily Unavailable - Storm Speeders and the Gladiators for example? I'm guessing repacks? Are they first because they have the biggest changes, or based on some sort of luck-of-the-draw?

**Voss**

Breton wrote:
I was doing some window shopping on the website today, and

A) a lot of really weird still is "moving fast" - Drop Pods I get but Defilers, a couple odd named characters, and the Cassius Kill Team though?

B) Mix that in with a whole bunch of stuff being Temporarily Unavailable - Storm Speeders and the Gladiators for example? I'm guessing repacks? Are they first because they have the biggest changes, or based on some sort of luck-of-the-draw?

Some SM stuff is being closeted (old dread, various finecast characters).

Other stuff is likely just getting reboxed for the new edition packaging. Marines and tyranids are up first for the codex treatment, after all.

-'moving fast' is almost certainly a website algorithm. X sales in (period of time) likely shuffles what's in there. Since a good chunk of it is 'temporarily unavailable,' it applies some FOMO pressure for the other stuff listed (buy now or wait weeks-to-months!!!!)
Its a cheap sales gimmick.

**Breton**

Voss wrote:
Breton wrote:
I was doing some window shopping on the website today, and

A) a lot of really weird still is "moving fast" - Drop Pods I get but Defilers, a couple odd named characters, and the Cassius Kill Team though?

B) Mix that in with a whole bunch of stuff being Temporarily Unavailable - Storm Speeders and the Gladiators for example? I'm guessing repacks? Are they first because they have the biggest changes, or based on some sort of luck-of-the-draw?

Some SM stuff is being closeted (old dread, various finecast characters).

Other stuff is likely just getting reboxed for the new edition packaging. Marines and tyranids are up first for the codex treatment, after all.

-'moving fast' is almost certainly a website algorithm. X sales in (period of time) likely shuffles what's in there. Since a good chunk of it is 'temporarily unavailable,' it applies some FOMO pressure for the other stuff listed (buy now or wait weeks-to-months!!!!)
Its a cheap sales gimmick.

That was part of my point - that the temporarily unavailable didn't mean much, but Moving Fast was a more "honest" indicator - and most of that stuff was pretty weird to be "moving fast". The Drop Pods made sense. The BA Baal Predator though? I'm not even sure its been previewed yet? The Defiler? Rogal Dorn Battle Tank? And most of all Kill Team Cassius? Its been out for a long long time why are people gobbling it up now?

**Hamburger Helper**

Breton wrote:

That was part of my point - that the temporarily unavailable didn't mean much, but Moving Fast was a more "honest" indicator - and most of that stuff was pretty weird to be "moving fast". The Drop Pods made sense. The BA Baal Predator though? I'm not even sure its been previewed yet? The Defiler? Rogal Dorn Battle Tank? And most of all Kill Team Cassius? Its been out for a long long time why are people gobbling it up now?

Could be that the webstore has little stock left of those specific kits (though that would be wierd for the rogal dorn, maybe reboxing for 10th?) so selling 2 or 3 kits in a day is enough to trigger the "moving fast" message.

**Breton**

Hamburger Helper wrote:
Breton wrote:

That was part of my point - that the temporarily unavailable didn't mean much, but Moving Fast was a more "honest" indicator - and most of that stuff was pretty weird to be "moving fast". The Drop Pods made sense. The BA Baal Predator though? I'm not even sure its been previewed yet? The Defiler? Rogal Dorn Battle Tank? And most of all Kill Team Cassius? Its been out for a long long time why are people gobbling it up now?

Could be that the webstore has little stock left of those specific kits (though that would be wierd for the rogal dorn, maybe reboxing for 10th?) so selling 2 or 3 kits in a day is enough to trigger the "moving fast" message.

Could be - but I'm assuming everything being reboxed in this wave (and I assume they do it in waves) would have available set to 0, and they'd just rebox them all instead of leaving 2-3 for shoppers. It just struck me as weird which kits were getting triggered. Looking at the weapons options on the Dorn, I can see where it could be pretty good next edition, but its still a gamble you don't need to make before the release date - though I wonder if it was selling with the now sold out Leman Russ and people were making an Armored Company. The Baal Predator is really out there. The Twin Assault Cannon feels like its 50/50 for Twin Linking - which is generally painful for Space Marines.

I think its interesting to look at the list and try and figure out what was going on to put them on the list. Most of them make varying degrees of sense. The Drop Pods were the biggest no-brainer - though I'm surprised we didn't see Hellblasters on the list too. I assume people have all they want of them from the boxed set.

**Voss**

Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:
Breton wrote:
I was doing some window shopping on the website today, and

A) a lot of really weird still is "moving fast" - Drop Pods I get but Defilers, a couple odd named characters, and the Cassius Kill Team though?

B) Mix that in with a whole bunch of stuff being Temporarily Unavailable - Storm Speeders and the Gladiators for example? I'm guessing repacks? Are they first because they have the biggest changes, or based on some sort of luck-of-the-draw?

Some SM stuff is being closeted (old dread, various finecast characters).

Other stuff is likely just getting reboxed for the new edition packaging. Marines and tyranids are up first for the codex treatment, after all.

-'moving fast' is almost certainly a website algorithm. X sales in (period of time) likely shuffles what's in there. Since a good chunk of it is 'temporarily unavailable,' it applies some FOMO pressure for the other stuff listed (buy now or wait weeks-to-months!!!!)
Its a cheap sales gimmick.

That was part of my point - that the temporarily unavailable didn't mean much, but Moving Fast was a more "honest" indicator - and most of that stuff was pretty weird to be "moving fast". The Drop Pods made sense. The BA Baal Predator though? I'm not even sure its been previewed yet? The Defiler? Rogal Dorn Battle Tank? And most of all Kill Team Cassius? Its been out for a long long time why are people gobbling it up now?

You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?

Why do drop pods make sense, but not kits that are roughly as old, or newer things?
Especially in light of the new edition, where drop pods are a complete mystery that might well be garbage rules that don't even work right. (or don't provide any particular advantage over other forms of deep strike or reinforcements).

**ccs**

Voss wrote:

Why do drop pods make sense, but not kits that are roughly as old, or newer things?
Especially in light of the new edition, where drop pods are a complete mystery that might well be garbage rules that don't even work right. (or don't provide any particular advantage over other forms of deep strike or reinforcements).

Speculation that A) they will work right (or right enough) + B) the distinction between Primaris/non-Primaris will be dropped as far as wich units yhey can transport.

**tneva82**

Breton wrote:
Looking at the weapons options on the Dorn, I can see where it could be pretty good next edition, but its still a gamble you don't need to make before the release date

Then again if you wait for confirmation you could be too late.

Good luck finding gobbalooza in aos side for example

new book made it bonker good so every meta chaser went for those and squig herds.

You have super short time after rules seen before meta chasers buy stores dry.

**Breton**

Voss wrote:

You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?

Because you're not getting "fooled" by repacks etc. If it's moving fast its because it sold, not because they're swapping the booklets.

Why do drop pods make sense, but not kits that are roughly as old, or newer things?

Because Primaris can ride in them now.

Especially in light of the new edition, where drop pods are a complete mystery that might well be garbage rules that don't even work right. (or don't provide any particular advantage over other forms of deep strike or reinforcements).

Marines keeping Drop Pod Assault is a much safer bet than if the Baal Pred gets or avoids Twin Linked on the Turret Assault Cannons. Maybe Drop Pods are stinkers - but that's a pretty long shot. Even if they stay the same as they are now - except Primaris can ride - that's a pretty big change for Hellblasters, and those new Desolators. Using Current Points - 10 Assault Intercessors and a pod vs 10 Incursors/Infiltrators would provide some interesting math. We haven't seen it all yet, I agree - but I suspect I'm not the only one more than half expecting to be sick of Drop Pods by about Month #3 of 10th.

**Albertorius**

Not a fan of special characters as currently are in the game. Much prefer to play "my guys" over "this cool special character's hanger ons".

The fact that regular characters have less and less options with each codex is not really where I'd prefer the game to go.

OTOH, as an IW player, I never much cared that there's no special characters either ^^.

**ccs**

Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:

You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?

Because you're not getting "fooled" by repacks etc. If it's moving fast its because it sold, not because they're swapping the booklets.

I'm not being fooled by "temporarily out of stock" messages.
It just means I can't place an order for (x) atm & will have to check back later.
They owe me no explanation as to why something is TOoS, and I don't care about the why.

And if it persists & becomes I need (x) RIGHT NOW?
Then I'll look elsewhere, likely find it, & probably save a few dollars as well.
Oh, wait..... That's how I shop for GW kits anyways. GWs site, barring exclusives, is generally the LAST place I order from.
So why do I care if GWs site is OoS on something??

**Voss**

ccs wrote:
Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:

You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?

Because you're not getting "fooled" by repacks etc. If it's moving fast its because it sold, not because they're swapping the booklets.

I'm not being fooled by "temporarily out of stock" messages.
It just means I can't place an order for (x) atm & will have to check back later.
They owe me no explanation as to why something is TOoS, and I don't care about the why.

Thank you. I was at a loss about being 'fooled' about Out of Stock items. I couldn't even vaguely grasp the relevance to the binary state of can or can't order.

**Breton**

Voss wrote:
ccs wrote:
Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:

You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?

Because you're not getting "fooled" by repacks etc. If it's moving fast its because it sold, not because they're swapping the booklets.

I'm not being fooled by "temporarily out of stock" messages.
It just means I can't place an order for (x) atm & will have to check back later.
They owe me no explanation as to why something is TOoS, and I don't care about the why.

Thank you. I was at a loss about being 'fooled' about Out of Stock items. I couldn't even vaguely grasp the relevance to the binary state of can or can't order.

Sometimes you just have to set your personal animosity aside and think a little deeper - that would have saved Voss when he tried the gotcha over Drop Pods only to have several people point out exactly why it was a No Brainer. Out Of Stock - especially before a big release - is not binary. It could be 0 Stock On Hand, or it could be the Stock On Hand has been pulled for repacking, or a number of other reasons.