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Okay, so the first time I read Legion, I thought the whole idea behind the Cabal was pretty interesting, but as I've read more and more HH books, there becomes a pretty huge flaw in their visions of the future. Essentially, there was always a third option, here's what I mean:

The Cabal present only two possible futures, either Horus wins and Humanity burns out, taking Chaos along with it, or the Imperium wins, the Emperor is crippled, and we get the 40k we all know. They frame it that these are the only two possible outcomes, yet, if they can actually see the future the way they claim, there are some major events that could have caused a dramatic impact on the stare of the war and the powers of Chaos. We can see it from a timeline of a few key evens as follows:

- 001 M31: The Alpha Legion learn the truth.
- 002 M31: Erebus steals the Anathame Blade.
- 004 M31: Horus falls on Davin. / Magnus breaks the Webway project.
- 005 M31: The Battle of Isstvan III
- 006 M31: The Dropsite Massace.

Okay, so we know that with the Alpha Legion on the side of Chaos, we get the result of the 40k universe as we know it. Now it can be argued that the loyalists in the Alpha Legion ensured this would be the case by their actions, but overall, it was far less impactful that whole entities of other Legions, so lets see how it would be logically easy to tip the board.

- The Alpha Legion could assassinate Erebus, or at the very least, steal the Anathame blade themselves. It is debatable if this would prevent Horus' fall to Chaos, but it would certainly delay it, buying the loyalists precious time. Even if this is too close an event in the timeline for the Alpha Legion to affect (not too sure how far away from the Interex are from Alpha 42), there is still more. (It's also possible that this event may have been too subtle to be picked on in the score of the conflict.)
- Go to Magnus: If Alpharius/Omegon had made for Prospero and told Magnus what they'd learned, out of any of the Primarchs, he'd be the most likely to believe them. He then wouldn't try to warn the Emperor. This prevents the destruction of the webway project and saves the Thousand Sons.
- So now we've got the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, and Alpha Legion on the side of the loyalists and available for Istvaan V. The Alpha Legion would also know that the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers are traitors and even if they do not know the specifics of the trap they plan, they could be prepared. Best case scenario, they spring their own trap and destroy the (now three) traitor legions in orbit before the deployment. Worst case, Magnus and Alpharius can't or won't attempt to convince the others, but still have evened the odds. Now instead of an 8 vs 3 Legion massacre, it's a 7 vs 6 war. With 4 being already depleted from Isstvan III and the force multiplier of the Thousand Son's on the Loyalists side, I'd call that either even matched with the 3 traitor legion's surprise attack.

This doesn't even account for the other things that the Alpha Legion did on the traitors side during the war. Their conflict with both the White Scars and later the Space Wolves we're large impacts into the combat efficacy of both those legions during the Heresy. There are other potential possibilities too, if they'd been able to warn the Ultramarines about the Word Bearers trap at Calth, or bring the White Scars back from the fringe to assist earlier (neither are guaranteed, particularly the first since Alpharius and Guilliman have never gotten along well). So, with the Heresy changed form 9v9 to 11v7, Tzeentch is deprived of the Thousand Sons, and much of the element of surprise from Horus gone. Could Horus have even made it all the way to Terra to mortally wound Big E?

My point is, even with only focusing on a few big picture events, there's no way that the Cabal couldn't have seen the possibility of a proper Imperial victory. They lied. The question is why; and two theories come to mind:
1. They've been infiltrated by agents of chaos, likely Tzeentch, to manipulate them into creating the universe we see in 40k.
2. They know the risk of turning the universe into what we see in 40k, but fear the Imperium taking over the galaxy just as much. So, they gamble the galaxy on the slim possibility of having their two greatest enemies destroy each other.

That's my take on it all at least. Did I miss anything? What do you all think?

Yeah its a fair point - The Cabal don't make a huge amunt of sense other than as a disperate group of different plans that put up a united front only for the humans but are actually working on stuff that benefits their own race/s.

Alot depends on if they see a more united and more powerful humanity as the worst result whether they are serving Chaos or themselves.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah its a fair point - The Cabal don't make a huge amunt of sense other than as a disperate group of different plans that put up a united front only for the humans but are actually working on stuff that benefits their own race/s.

Alot depends on if they see a more united and more powerful humanity as the worst result whether they are serving Chaos or themselves.

They have the same syndrome a lot of seers and prescients in various settings have: they're convinced that their visions are correct, are all-encompassing and understand and contain all possibilities and nuances. And they have their own goals, and are being dicks about it. They seem to have blind spots the size of small moons, and that means that their prescience is not what they claim it to be, or they're only telling halft-truths and 'white' lies to further their agenda.

Could simply be Learned Idiots. The Baron Frankenstein Mad Scientists of the Esoteric Realm. Rune Readers and Seers so caught up on their own brilliance they long since stopped second guessing themselves.

I mean, we can find more than a few real life examples of people so caught up on Prophecy, and helping or hindering they lose all sense of here and now, and perspective.

The Cabal was probably the worst thing put into the Heresy series and there is already a lot of dross in there, and I'm saying that as someone who likes the series.
I couldn't read Legion because I found it intensely boring having only started it because I found the Gaunt's Ghosts novels so good. Does it say if they know what's going to happen in detail or is it more vague? For example, do they know exactly who/what causes Horus' downfall, or is it more that they know it's going to happen so let's make the best of it?

 Gert wrote:
The Cabal was probably the worst thing put into the Heresy series and there is already a lot of dross in there, and I'm saying that as someone who likes the series.
I couldn't read Legion because I found it intensely boring having only started it because I found the Gaunt's Ghosts novels so good. Does it say if they know what's going to happen in detail or is it more vague? For example, do they know exactly who/what causes Horus' downfall, or is it more that they know it's going to happen so let's make the best of it?

It's kept very vague in detail but said that Alpharius/Omegon and Soneka see the whole scope of it. However, that could be interpreted as only what the Cabal is either able to see themselves, or wants to share. So there's really know way to know exactly what they see. Also of note, the Psyker Share that sees it dies. It's implied to be psychic backlash form the experience, but he could have been sneakily assassinated while the other three were cripplingly distracted to prevent him from poking holes in the prophecy.

I think that the Cabal is a cool idea that was sadly executed rather poorly.

 Tawnis wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Cabal was probably the worst thing put into the Heresy series and there is already a lot of dross in there, and I'm saying that as someone who likes the series.
I couldn't read Legion because I found it intensely boring having only started it because I found the Gaunt's Ghosts novels so good. Does it say if they know what's going to happen in detail or is it more vague? For example, do they know exactly who/what causes Horus' downfall, or is it more that they know it's going to happen so let's make the best of it?

It's kept very vague in detail but said that Alpharius/Omegon and Soneka see the whole scope of it. However, that could be interpreted as only what the Cabal is either able to see themselves, or wants to share. So there's really know way to know exactly what they see. Also of note, the Psyker Share that sees it dies. It's implied to be psychic backlash form the experience, but he could have been sneakily assassinated while the other three were cripplingly distracted to prevent him from poking holes in the prophecy.

I think that the Cabal is a cool idea that was sadly executed rather poorly.

Just like Alpharius/Omegon or Cypher, there is a point, about a dozen mysteries deep, where adding further twists and mysteries starts to cheapen the characters and plots again, and the Cabal is firmly beyond that point

Eh, even when I first read Legion as a teenager, the Cabal felt like they played the Alpha Legion for fools.

40k divination is routinely described as showing myriad outcomes based on different actions- just two is basically unheard of.

I am firmly in the camp where the Cabal used this as a way to injure the xenocidal Imperium before the Great Crusade could wipe out all other xenos.

I was always surprised with the ease by which A&O accepted what they had been shown by the cabals device. It’s more believable if we found out that the device was made by tzeench and it made you believe what you were shown and cause it to become reality. The nature of the visions would appeal to the alpha legion primarchs as their minds are a twisting web of schemes anyway. We are told that it has to be the AL because they are the newest and purest legion and haven’t corrupted themselves with secrets like the Dark Angels. However we have been told recently that the AL may have been the first legion active with Alpharius the first primarch found.

My other preference would be to have the alpha legion revealed as the true architects of the heresy all along. Considering scheming is their thing they often get out schemes by other people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
Eh, even when I first read Legion as a teenager, the Cabal felt like they played the Alpha Legion for fools.

40k divination is routinely described as showing myriad outcomes based on different actions- just two is basically unheard of.

I am firmly in the camp where the Cabal used this as a way to injure the xenocidal Imperium before the Great Crusade could wipe out all other xenos.

I like this theory.

The Cabal is dumb. Chaos has existed for millions of years and had little to do with humans until the Age of Strife. There is no way the extinction of humanity (rather than the extinction of every race in the galaxy) would ever destroy them.

I have a theory that humans created Tzeentch due to lust for knowledge during the Dark Age of Technology. Tzeentch, not yet a god back then, promised a lot of scientific breakthroughs for humanity and was worshipped without his nature made known. Tzeentch's full ascension to Chaos God led to the Age of Strife which ruined humanity as much as the birth of Slaanesh ruined the Aeldari. If this is the case, then the Cabal might end up getting rid of Tzeentch if humanity goes extinct, but certainly not the other three gods.

I think the main problem with the Alpha legion (aside from the Are they/ Aren't they question) is their lack of trust ESPECIALLY within thier own legion. Forgot where I heard it- prolly that Ozzie Majorkill, but one problem was Alparius and Omegon were separated in the whole warp shuffle of the primarchs. One was raised on Terra and trained by Malcador- since he set up both the Offico Assassinorum and the Inquisition, the old guy knew a bit about subversive tactics. So, like the whole Rogal Dorn thing, most of the Alpha legion's primarch actions could be interpreted as helping the Imperium but the big catch being: THEY DON'T TELL YOU WHY THEY DID IT!!!

Big stretch here, but IF it came out Alpha Legion were loyal all along, one of the Twinses is alive (Being Cypher would be a plus, but not needed) and they help push Chaos back a bit after the rift incident 1) It'd tick off some Chaos players and 2) great swathes of Alpha legion warbands would be like "Okay, &#$%^& that- I just wanna stab people".

As for the Cabal itself, it kinda sort of makes sense- nothing brings people together like mutual hatred so any/ all Xeno races who despise Humans and/or chaos would inevitably band together. John Grammaticus is a good character in all the books, but the puppetmasters seemed like a quasi-illuminati to be secretive and plotting to add more grimdark and not much more.

Anyhoo- Alpharius & Omegon in a Nutshell: