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ccs wrote:
You know you don't have to write an essay explaining that you didn't get the joke, right?

You know you don't have to be snarky if someone (apparently) misunderstands your post, right?

CSM make deals with daemon weapons all the time. I have no idea where you got this idea that they don't.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
CSM make deals with daemon weapons all the time. I have no idea where you got this idea that they don't.

What stories have whole squads making deals with their weapons mid-battle and randomly getting zapped?

 catbarf wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
CSM make deals with daemon weapons all the time. I have no idea where you got this idea that they don't.

What stories have whole squads making deals with their weapons mid-battle and randomly getting zapped?

What stories feature [insert named character here] dying hundreds of times per day across as many different worlds and battles?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

What stories feature [insert named character here] dying hundreds of times per day across as many different worlds and battles?

Disingenuous logic at it's finest. Nice.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

What stories feature [insert named character here] dying hundreds of times per day across as many different worlds and battles?

Disingenuous logic at it's finest. Nice.

What's disingenuous about it? They both contort lore into a pretzel and bother a small but vocal minority of players.

Besides, as a Chaos player, you can keep your guys pure by just resisting the urge to use the rule. You don't get the power or the drawback and get to stick it to the chaos gods by winning without their help.

Even if you don't like the specific implementation of it, would people disagree that a "price for power" mechanic is within flavor for Chaos Space Marines?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Even if you don't like the specific implementation of it, would people disagree that a "price for power" mechanic is within flavor for Chaos Space Marines?

All Chaos Space Marines? No.

Sacrifice 1 unit Champion once per battle to get something special out of a pact
yeah this is fine and thematic

every single unit sacrifice models each phase to get a minor buff, not really

given that by story alone rituals take time and need to be prepared and are not just a random prayer
and even if it would be that easy, you would sacrifice cultists for that and not Marines, that is the reason why cultist are in the first place


If you want a thematic price for power rule that goes off on that level, CSM would need to sacrifice D6 Cultists per Command Point as their only Source to get some (but therefore can get as many as they have models)

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Even if you don't like the specific implementation of it, would people disagree that a "price for power" mechanic is within flavor for Chaos Space Marines?

Sort of, but not necessarily. I would have preferred a more generic "skilled" force multiplier for the Faction, and then reserve the motivation-style (Anger/Power/whatever) ability for the various Detachment types.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Even if you don't like the specific implementation of it, would people disagree that a "price for power" mechanic is within flavor for Chaos Space Marines?

All Chaos Space Marines? No.

Price for power is actually just plain wrong.
There IS a price for power from the Chaos Gods, but ultimatly the end goal for those that dabble with them frequently is to advance to immortality , regardless if they are a marine OR a normal mortal.
That actually turns this supposed "theme" more into an analogue of calculated risk taking. And Calculated risk taking means something akin to the old Daemonweapons.
Not random bolter worship.

____________________________

Especially on the CSM side, logisitics (older, less reliable but more experimental), Veterancy (legionaires vs order turncoats) should play a larger role.

As it stands, GW is hellbent to ignore the premier, especially the older equipment part as seen with the legending, and the experimental part , as once again seen with the legending. (according to GW the Decimator which first apeared in M35 is now an HH era unit, let that stupidity sink in...) and veterancy is basically denied to CSM since 3.5, mostly because SM + Veterancy would make SM feelbad, or so GW assumes.

So GW went the way of Daemons, intermixed with ridicoulus Daemonengines (and legended the good looking ones for dinos and wannabee dragons) to pad out CSM, whilest letting all the classic CSM and their shared counterparts languish. The problem for those things is of course, that if they strengthen them for CSM then SM players will want upgrades for their old tanks too. And Gw pretty much wants them to buy primaris things instead of reuisng their old tanks.

Make of that what you will.

And tomorrow we get to find out what new stuff we've lost...

I have noticed that the strats associated with detachments tend to lean into to other rules. I'd almost bet there are rules that build from/ modify the Dark Pact rule.

I'm hoping that some of those make it feel more versatile so that everyone has a better way to make it fit "their Dudes."

A few folks have said that Dark Pacts would have made an excellent detachment rule, but that it isn't really that great as a Faction rule. I couldn't agree more.

So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

For reals?

That's low. That's real low.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

For reals?

That's low. That's real low.

I really, REALLY hope that's addressed in the first FAQ/errata.
Because that just feels like a slap in the face to CSM players. It's the SAME STRAT, on a very similar army. I could see that strat being more expensive for Knights, since they concentrate so much power into one unit, but CSM and Loyalists are not nearly that divergent from one another.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

For reals?

That's low. That's real low.

I really, REALLY hope that's addressed in the first FAQ/errata.
Because that just feels like a slap in the face to CSM players. It's the SAME STRAT, on a very similar army. I could see that strat being more expensive for Knights, since they concentrate so much power into one unit, but CSM and Loyalists are not nearly that divergent from one another.

I could be wrong, but my gut feeling is that the loyalists can field more potent units to begin with these days, so it'd make more sense if it was 2CP for loyalists if the reasoning was a balancing one. (Thinking Desolators, Centurions, Gravis-Melta-Guys, stuff like that)

As others have pointed out, the issue with dark pacts isn't the idea that CSM make some deals that are bad for their long-term health; it's that

A.) The rules for Dark Pacts don't line up with how that concept is presented in the fluff.

and

B.) Some heretic astartes just aren't *that* into spooky daemon stuff, so making it the mechanical gimmick for *all* heretic astartes (instead of making it a detachment rule) feels like a weird choice.

I read Renegades: Harrowmaster not too long ago. It's a novel about my main CSM faction: Alpha Legion, and we get a pretty good look at the subfactions within the warband.

You *do* have some daemonic tech and mutations scattered throughout, even in the subfactions that aren't fans of the chaos gods, and you *do* have what are essentially (if not explicitly) AL berzerkers.

But what you *don't* have is every squad in the warband hurriedly trying to forge pacts with daemons while they reload. You *don't* see marines regularly spontaneously combusting when those pacts go awry.

A good example of what Dark Pacts seem to be going for is the main character's daemonic bionic arm. There are some lines here and there about how the arm will totally try to kill him at some point if he ever lets his control over it slip. It successfully does harm to him zero times across the 6+ battlefields he fights in during the events of the book. If I wanted to represent something like his arm, I'd want it to be something like a traditional daemon weapon: an optional upgrade that you can give to a character and has a chance of hurting said character when you use it.

The story Dark Pacts tell me is that every single CSM in my army has their own equivalent of a daemon arm, and the warband's numbers are shrinking constantly as a result of these magic doodads.

Dark Pacts are an awkward choice from the designers.

Thank you for explaining the Dark Pacts situation so succinctly. It's essentially the same reasons why I don't like the Oath of Moment as a faction-defining rule for loyalist Space Marines.

Oaths of Moment are pledges made before a battle, with a witness, and involve writing something down as proof of that oath. They're not something the army decides on a whim as one target dies after the next.

"Stay thy hand, Daemon Lord Tel'thex'a'trax, Defiler of Gardon VII!"
"Why should I, False-Emperor Lapdog!"
"Well you see we have destroyed your Land Raider, and thus our Oath of Moment is complete."
"Why should I care, pathetic creature?"
"Well now my brothers and I need the time to swear a new Oath of Moment on your other Land Raider. We need to perform the ritual and affix the necessary parchment or purity seals to our armour."
"This is ludicrous!"
"Speaking of ludicrous, whilst we are doing this, you might want to have a word to your traitorous brethren about proper weapon maintenance."
"What are you talking about?"
"I've noticed that every few shots, one of your men just randomly dies as his gun explodes. Not entirely sure why, but it could be worth looking into."

 Wyldhunt wrote:
As others have pointed out, the issue with dark pacts isn't the idea that CSM make some deals that are bad for their long-term health; it's that

A.) The rules for Dark Pacts don't line up with how that concept is presented in the fluff.

and

B.) Some heretic astartes just aren't *that* into spooky daemon stuff, so making it the mechanical gimmick for *all* heretic astartes (instead of making it a detachment rule) feels like a weird choice.

...

The story Dark Pacts tell me is that every single CSM in my army has their own equivalent of a daemon arm, and the warband's numbers are shrinking constantly as a result of these magic doodads.

Dark Pacts are an awkward choice from the designers.

At some point though don't we have to accept that GW are trying to make a rule applicable all heretic astartes even if not all heretic astartes are into spooky daemon stuff? Given the diversity in the fluff between chapters and warbands no global rule will ever be a great representation of any of any particular one. I'd be interested to see some alternative ideas for a faction rule if anyone has some though.

Of course they could split the legions out even more, but frankly I don't the game needs that any more than it needs more loyalist marine factions.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

For reals?

That's low. That's real low.

I really, REALLY hope that's addressed in the first FAQ/errata.
Because that just feels like a slap in the face to CSM players. It's the SAME STRAT, on a very similar army. I could see that strat being more expensive for Knights, since they concentrate so much power into one unit, but CSM and Loyalists are not nearly that divergent from one another.

The reason the CSM version is 2 CP is because of what Abaddon does when attached to a unit of Terminators. That's already a death star unit given that it gets access to every mark's boon if it could also easily ignore AP that might push things over the top.

You need to look at the best thing your faction can do with a strat before complaining about it.

Is it me or is there no detachment sheet for EC? I saw the entry for Noise Marines and Lucius but that was it. Do you think that GW is going to force everyone into the one detachment profile until the Codex comes out or will there be some more options?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Is it me or is there no detachment sheet for EC? I saw the entry for Noise Marines and Lucius but that was it. Do you think that GW is going to force everyone into the one detachment profile until the Codex comes out or will there be some more options?

Nope. This is it until the Codex drops. We might get some things in WD, but right now this is all there is.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

For reals?

That's low. That's real low.

I really, REALLY hope that's addressed in the first FAQ/errata.
Because that just feels like a slap in the face to CSM players. It's the SAME STRAT, on a very similar army. I could see that strat being more expensive for Knights, since they concentrate so much power into one unit, but CSM and Loyalists are not nearly that divergent from one another.

The reason the CSM version is 2 CP is because of what Abaddon does when attached to a unit of Terminators. That's already a death star unit given that it gets access to every mark's boon if it could also easily ignore AP that might push things over the top.

You need to look at the best thing your faction can do with a strat before complaining about it.

This stratagem costs 2 CP if it targets an Epic Hero unit.
That solves your issue without giving CSM a strat that’s literally a Loyalist strat but worse. Actually, it still would be worse, but only if you take an Epic Hero. And I highly doubt that Loyalist Marines can’t make a Death Star.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Armour of Contempt is 1 CP.
Infernal Rites (the same strat for CSM) is 2 CP.

I'm salty now.

For reals?

That's low. That's real low.

I really, REALLY hope that's addressed in the first FAQ/errata.
Because that just feels like a slap in the face to CSM players. It's the SAME STRAT, on a very similar army. I could see that strat being more expensive for Knights, since they concentrate so much power into one unit, but CSM and Loyalists are not nearly that divergent from one another.

The reason the CSM version is 2 CP is because of what Abaddon does when attached to a unit of Terminators. That's already a death star unit given that it gets access to every mark's boon if it could also easily ignore AP that might push things over the top.

You need to look at the best thing your faction can do with a strat before complaining about it.

This stratagem costs 2 CP if it targets an Epic Hero unit.
That solves your issue without giving CSM a strat that’s literally a Loyalist strat but worse. Actually, it still would be worse, but only if you take an Epic Hero. And I highly doubt that Loyalist Marines can’t make a Death Star.

Calgar has two bodyguard and can still attach to either Aggressors or Bladeguard. I'm 90% sure that can qualify for a death star of some kind.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Calgar has two bodyguard and can still attach to either Aggressors or Bladeguard. I'm 90% sure that can qualify for a death star of some kind.

Show your work. If you think it's death star show us what it does that qualifies.

Abaddon + 10 Chaos Terminators looks something like this:

Ranged:
1x Talon of Horus [SUSTAINED HITS 1] 24" 4 2+ 5 -1 2
8x Combi-bolter [RAPID FIRE 2] 24" 2 3+ 4 0 1
2x Reaper autocannon [DEVASTATING WOUNDS, SUSTAINED HITS 1] 36" 4 3+ 7 -1 1

Melee:
1x Drach’nyen [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] Melee 8 2+ 14 -4 3
or
1x Talon of Horus [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] Melee 14 2+ 7 -3 1
2x Accursed weapon Melee 4 3+ 5 -2 1
6x Power fist Melee 3 3+ 8 -2 2
2x Chainfist [ANTI-VEHICLE 3+] Melee 3 4+ 8 -2 2

Despoilers: Each time this unit makes a Dark Pact, until the
end of the phase, each time a model in this unit makes an
attack, you can re-roll the Hit roll.

Dark Destiny: Each time this model makes a Dark Pact and
does not fail the resulting Leadership test, roll one D6: on a
2+, you gain 1CP.

Paragon of Hatred (Aura): While a friendly Heretic Astartes unit is within 6" of this model, each time a
model in that unit makes an attack, you can re-roll the Hit roll.

or

Mark of Chaos Ascendant (Aura): While a friendly Heretic Astartes Infantry or Heretic Astartes
Mounted unit is within 6" of this model, models in that unit have a 4+ invulnerable save.

or

Lord of the Traitor Legions (Aura): While a friendly Heretic Astartes unit is within 6" of this model, you
can re-roll Leadership and Battle-shock tests taken for that unit.

Blood Fury: In the Fight phase, if this unit’s weapons
gained the [LETHAL HITS] ability this phase as the
result of a Dark Pact, each time a model in this unit
makes an attack, an unmodified Hit roll of 5+ scores
a Critical Hit.

Warpfire: In the Shooting phase, if this unit’s
weapons gained the [LETHAL HITS] ability this phase
as the result of a Dark Pact, each time a model in this
unit makes an attack, an unmodified Hit roll of 5+
scores a Critical Hit.

Spreading Sickness: In the Shooting phase, if this
unit’s weapons gained the [SUSTAINED HITS 1] ability
this phase as the result of a Dark Pact, each time a
model in this unit makes an attack, an unmodified
Hit roll of 5+ scores a Critical Hit.

Excessive Cruelty: In the Fight phase, if this unit’s
weapons gained the [SUSTAINED HITS 1] ability this
phase as the result of a Dark Pact, each time a model
in this unit makes an attack, an unmodified Hit roll of
5+ scores a Critical Hit.

Glory to Chaos: Each time a model in this unit makes
an attack, re-roll a Hit roll of 1.

They also use every stratagem the army has at full value because the unit is treated as having every mark of chaos at once.

This unit drops in at 9", pops Profane Zeal for full rerolls to hit and wound, and then picks the best special rule to activate on a 5+. Because they will already reroll hits and already have 4++ save they will likely always be rerolling leadership and battle-shock test. This unit can also heal a wounded model and restore one destroyed model every turn. If they could do that and get a -1 AP each turn the unit would likely err on the side of being too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before anybody goes off on me, I'm aware of how nasty The Lion + Terminators is but they don't have the healing which is probably what makes the Chaos version get the 2 CP strat.

I have to think that GW decided that too many Death Guard players were sitting on a collection without buying new units and decided to nerf them.

A single possible deathstar that also generates CP is not a good justification to make that stratagem 2CP - if you use it, you get extra CP to offset the cost, basically. So it really only affects csm when they dont play him, and that seems pretty stupid to me.

nekooni wrote:
A single possible deathstar that also generates CP is not a good justification to make that stratagem 2CP - if you use it, you get extra CP to offset the cost, basically. So it really only affects csm when they dont play him, and that seems pretty stupid to me.

that is just normal for stratagems, and part of the issue why they are just bad design.

There was a reason you only ever saw Slaanesh Obliterators in 8th edition. Mostly because non slaanesh obliterators were not worth their points that were a result of hikes due to a stratagem tied specifically to the mark of slaanesh.

I'd have an easier time believing GW balance around Abaddon+Terminators if they showed any consistency of doing so across their game. I'm fairly confident this stuff is just arbitrary.