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I know discussion of this is kind of scattered across a few different threads at the moment, but I wanted to create a thread for focusing on the new rules for the pointy ears. Drukhari discussion is also welcome. I just haven't personally read those rules yet.

My disorganized thoughts:
* Seems like we're pretty powerful overall. We have rerolls all over the place, plus Strands of Fate dice that I imagine we'll want to burn through on turns 1 and 2 to set the pace of the game.

* Typo and the Corsairs and Traveling Players section on page 4. Looks like someone forgot to find and replace the word "Drukhari". But that said, this seems like a decent, tame way to handle allies.

* Our strats seem powerful and give us the tools to be maneuverable. Phantasm especially seems like it will drive opponents crazy. Fire and Fade now letting you move up to your Movement stat is also great for things like jetbikes.

* Phoenix Lords in general seem okay. They all look reasonably useful, if a little bare bones. It sort of feels like their special abilities would be more at home as an exarch power than as the extent of a supernatural demigod's abilities. Asurman seems useful provided your opponent makes a habit of leaving units within 18" of your avengers. Baharroth letting his squad hide after they shoot seems fun. Fuegan got a glow up; apparently he can wipe out a whole squad of marines in the shooting phase with some lucky rolls, and he remains pretty threatening to vehicles (even tough ones). Jain is a good beatstick, but her Whirlwind rule is a little weird. It lets her banshee friends act as a countercharge unit. That seems like it should work pretty well given that they strike first, but I'll have to get used to leaving banshees near other, more chargeable units. Karandras doesn't really change up how his squad behaves, but he's a good beatstick. Maugan is probably the most awkward as his gun has never paired great with that of other reapers, but his squad will appreciate the +1 to hit.

* Autarchs seem okay. The Wayleaper's ability would probably work better if you could land him near a shocked squad to snap them out of battleshock, but the autarchs in general seem like moderately good fighters who let you use stratagems more often. Pretty decent. No longer faction-locking Yriel makes him seem like a decent choice for deployment shenanigans.

* The farseers all seem good. It's really weird that you have to take a bike if you want a certain psychic power, but oh well. I'm hoping the codex just lets them select from a list rather than tying specific powers to a datasheet. I also like how warlocks and conclaves are handled. The former seem like they can buff their squads in a more intuitive/cleaner way than before. The latter the let you build a tough squad of jedi (on bikes!) that sling psychic might around willy nilly. Which seems like a decent interpretation of the unit that also avoids stacking a bunch of protective powers on them and making them a deathstar.

* I just finished painting some voidscarred. They're a little less interesting now, but also a lot less complicated. Probably fine.

* Reapers can be taken in squads of 10 again. Their launcher stats bug me a little. The starshot profile going down to D2 and remaining S8 means it's no longer a good choice for chipping away at tanks. Which means instead of an anti-infantry and anti-tank profile, the launchers basically have two profiles that both want to go after medium targets. Which in turn means that there's always going to be a mathematically "right" choice for a given target. Guess I need to crunch numbers and make a spreadsheet for which profile to use against meq, gravis marines, etc. Sort of feels like a non-choice presented as a choice, you know? But I'll still give these guys a try. I'm predicting a tank-heavy meta, but maybe these guys will be worthwhile if I'm wrong.

*Harlequins feel a little weird right now. Troupes are now only fast if you run a shadowseer with them. Looks like starweavers didn't gain Assault so no using them in place of a shadowseer. Only one Death Jester per turn can use their Cruel Amusement ability, which seems weird, and I feel like at least one of those abilities is just straight up worse than the other options making it a false choice. Harlequin special weapons getting simplified to this degree is kind of a bummer. Also, Illic can keep rangers from getting shot at at a distance, but shadowseers (whose whole thing used to be Veil of Tears) can't. Which is fine, but weird. In general, harlies seem fine. Just kind of bland. Which is a shame as they're a faction GW seems to really like giving flavorful rules to.

* I'm kind of surprised by how few of our weapons have the lance keyword. Shining spears got it, but I expected to see it on the power/zephyr glaives, executioner, maybe singing spears, etc. Not a big deal; just surprised as we're one of the armies that actually has a lot of polearms.

* Falcon seems solid, but confused? It wants to transport units and have those units disembark so it can buff them, but it also has deepstrike and I'm pretty sure you can't disembark from it the turn it arrives? So you either have to not use its deepstrike rule to ensure you get buffed by the falcon, or else you have to hope the falcon survives a turn after deepstriking. Also, it can transport wraiths (which is nice), but the min squad size of wraiths is still too large to fit inside it. So I guess you would use it to protect/relocate a wraith squad once it's down to 3 or less models? Feels like wraith guard/blades should have been made a 3-10 squad instead of 5-10 to (literally) fit this transport better.

* Fire Dragon meltas are better than sister meltas, so you can at least wound rhinos with them half the time. Feels really weird that our short-ranged (read; high-risk-high-reward) anti-tank specialists no longer feel comfortable hunting down a land raider, but I guess that's just the edition. I think we can comfortably use these guys against T9 and lower targets.

* Fire Prisms feel like an auto-take. With Strands of Fate dice and detachment rerolls, their single-shot profile is one of the best anti-tank guns I've seen so far, and you can hide two of them while the third sticks its neck out to shoot.

* I like the nightspinner pinning rule. The reason I have two spinners built instead of a fire prism is that I fell in love with the idea of their old dangerous terrain rule that reminded the enemy they were slicing themselves up by moving around. This is a decent nod to that fluff, and it lets the spinner fill a support role rather than competing directly with the prism for damage output. Plus, between spinners, support batteries, and the restrain psychic power, I feel like we might be able to make pinning lists viable. I really like the thought of that.

* Guardians in general look good. Defenders give us miracle dice just for sitting around. Storm guardians might actually be worth taking if you're like me and hate puppy guarding objectives. The windriders seem like they can put out some decent damage (if you don't mind getting close with long-ranged guns). Even the vaul support batteries look pretty good. I know a lot of people freaking out about the D-cannons, but I'm not entirely clear on why. They basically do the same thing as before but got a small damage boost and wound light vehicles on 2s instead of 3s now, right? I like that their suppression rule. It seems like a good way to take the edge off of the enemy's offense. GW kind of gave up on making the vibrocannon interesting for now though, huh?

* War walkers and vypers are solo acts instead of squads now, huh? That feels ominous somehow. But both seem pretty decent. Walkers are notably tougher than vypers. Vypers can turn off enemy cover which reinforces their niche as a harassment unit. They seem fine.

* Illic and rangers seem good. A fat squad of rangers in the backfield, untargetable, doing 2 damage per unsaved shot with Precision if you want to be cute and try to take out the enemy characters? Seems like a decent investment. Rangers on their own seem a lot more iffy now, if only because their saves haven't been quite this bad in a while. Stealth helps, but they seem squishy. Their ability to scamper off when enemies get close is fluffy, but I'm more worried about opponents picking them up with bolter fire from outside of 9".

Shroud Runners with their target acquisition rule seem really strong? Giving Lethal Hits to the rest of your army against a single enemy unit seems huge. Apparently shroud runners can't aim when they hold still (their rifles aren't Heavy). Guess they must bob up and down a lot while stationary?

* Shining Spears seem fine on the whole, but I'm unreasonably cranky about the exarch weapons. The only difference between a star lance and a laser lance now is a point of AP, apparently. Would it really have been overkill to let the star lance keep its old Strength value? Weird nerf to feel compelled to make. Also, because the laser lance, star lance, and paragon blade all have such similar profiles, I'm pretty sure one of them is just straight up better against the majority of targets which means the other weapons are probably a non-choice. Weird that they've had the paragon saber for so long and have never figured out what to do with it.

* Spirit Seers can attach to wraith lords? Cute. Fluffy. Weird.

* This version of swooping hawks sky leap is interesting. Between their movement and their gun range, they can already reach pretty much anything on the table. Feels tame-but-okay. I miss my haywire grenades and sun rifles. :(

* The ynnari characters all look interesting and playable, but I want to complain about the visarch's of Ynnead rule. As with the Death Jester's rule, it seems like at least one of these options is just a trap to punish people for not mathing out their optimal use cases. Plus, they all just boil down to "put more damage on the enemy unit." I'd rather they remove the rule and just up his sword profile a smidge. Or just math out which of those rules is the best and give him that. Or just swap out this ability for something more interesting in general. His fluff blurb makes it sound like they're trying to emphasize his different fighting styles, so maybe let him choose between rules that aren't all a variation on "kill stuff better?" Or do something with the fluff that his sword is supposed to destroy the souls of those it kills or something. I think he used to do some sort of leadership debuff aura?

So overall, eldar seem like they're in a good place. Maybe a little killy compared to other factions? Definitely missing some of the flavor exarch powers, pivotal roles, and some of their missing wargear used to bring. But I don't think there are in any units in there that I'd avoid taking provided the points are reasonable. A lot of our units have embraced support special rules that change up the roles they fill and how the rest of the army behaves, and I'm really excited to see that. My hope for the codex is that they reintroduce some of the flavor options, let us choose some of the support abilities on our characters instead of tying them to datasheets, and give us some detachments that dramatically change how the army plays. Surely if marine bikes can leave the field and come back, our Saim-Hann windriders should be able to do the same, right?

Okay, had a chance to look through the drukhari index.

* Our strats really doubled down on encouraging us to run all three subfactions in an army. I'm not fundamentally opposed to mixing all three subfactions, but it is very annoying that it feels like I'm being punished if I don't start every list with our three generic HQs and a squad for each of them to hang with.

* Archons seem fluffy. I mourn the continued loss of customization, but at least my Poisoned Tongue archon will feel clever this edition.

* Beast packs have static model selection? Oof. I have so many khymarae that will never be playable now. Also hate that the beasts are all so similar now. The unit seems useful though.

* Court of the archon is also static in its composition. So further decreases in customization. I like that they're trying to make the court members buffers for the warrior squad, but the fluff here is a little hard to justify. How does a single Sslyth tank for the entire unit to make them all tougher? Why is an Ur-GHult eh thing that lets warriors fight first, and does GW think that we want to throw warriors into melee? Lhamean 's buff is nice, but it feels weird that it bypasses your poison rule rather than directly buffing it. But that one is nitpicking. I think I might have preferred it if they just made each court member a seperate unit that could join a wider variety of squads.
I guess you could put these guys in a giant warrior blob and- (*checks warrior squad composition*) Ah. Nevermind. Could be worse, but could be cooler.

* Eh... Cronos seems fine and useful, but the fun part about the Cronos is that you get to feel like you're sucking souls/pain hyper-efficiently through the enemy. In 5th edition, it was really satisfying to take out a lone sister of battle (or whatever) and get to hand off a pain token to a space elf in need. So not bad, but they missed what I personally liked about these things. Squad size of 1-2 is an interesting choice. Feels wishy-washy, but nbd.

* Drazhar seems good. Making incubi into melee snipers is a weird choice though. They have fluff about being body guards archons, which is sort of the opposite of this rule. I guess I can picture Drazhar wanting the glory of killing characters, but this kind of makes him compete against his own squad for the honor. So you have to choose what order to do your attacks in and hope he either takes out the character on his own or else hope that your squad doesn't take out the character without him.

...Oh. I see. Archons can't join their traditional bodyguard unit any more. Well then. I guess Drazhar is just taking advantage of the fact that Vect has banned archons from squadding up with incubi then.

* Am I crazy or do grotesques look kind of wimpy? Their ability to swing before they drop is fluffy and appropriate for them, but they just don't have a ton of attacks. Especially if you're sticking them in a raider. It seems like they might be decent marine killers? What do we think this unit's job is now?

* Haemis seem okay. FNP4+ is appropriate and useful, although it looks like coven units just have a baked in FNP5+, so I guess he's only adding so much. All their attacks being anti-infantry 2+ and Precision is a weird choice. I do *like* the idea of being able to field an assassin haemi, but it seems like a strange (non-customizable) default. Their Fear Incarnate rule doesn't do anything for me. Too passive. Too weird that it's tied to the haemi specifically and not his creations. These 6+ invulns feel weird. Coven units seem squishy enough (lol) that I wouldn't want to get rid of the invulns, but I feel like I'm going to get annoyed wasting a lot of time rolling a save that only helpes 1/6th of the time. I guess only Urien knows how to heal people/pain engines now? Oh, and neither of you can join grotesques any more. Well. Okay then. Guess wracks are just kind of mandatory now.

* Hellions: Lost options. Seem playable but probably blander than ever. Even the 7th edition version at least let you choose between the reliability of a power weapon and the instant death gamble of a stun claw.

* Warriors. I'm sure this was in the preview, but I see that we lost the ability to double up on blasters in a 10-man squad. So we technically gained a special weapon per squad, but now the unit will be more confused about its job. You'll also be annoying your opponent by having to shoot 5 different gun profiles per warrior squad instead of 3. I wonder if that's why they added the weird venom combat squads rule. Also, squads are now a flat 10 models. Wait, so how does this work with a court of the archon? Can I not fit the whole court in a raider with some warriors? Do I have to take venoms or walk them on foot? That's silly if I'm not missing something.
As I've spent too much time ranting about elsewhere, blasters are now bad at hunting most tanks. I imagine they'll probably still be worth taking, but I'm kind of bummed about it.

* Lelith seems good. It's weird that she's a buffer for her squad. Seems a little out of character for her. I guess the idea is that they're working together to set up more damaging (higher Strength) attacks? I know Lelith has always been able to hang out with squads, but she's also always struck me as a solo act. This is fine, but feels slightly off.

* Mandrakes seem fine. Their attacks gained Strength but lost AP. Their Fade Away rule matches what a lot of units do now, but this feels a lot less useful than the 9th edition version. Still, I suspect they're fine. They have Infiltrators instead of Deepstrike, so I suspect Fade Away will mostly be used to get a turn 2 deepstrike out of them.

* Hmm. They gave the raider deepstrike and aethersails but not Assault. I was really looking forward to charging out of raiders again. Bummer. Seems perfectly usable though. I think we'll be relying on raider lances more this edition now that blasters are rarer and worse at killing tanks.

* Ravagers look like an auto-take. I think we're back to triple ravagers as our main damage dealers. They get you a bunch of dark lances, they have a new special rule to replace ye olde aura archon, and meltaguns only wound them on a 5+ now. Remember to add three of these to every list after you've added your mandatory 3 HQs and their respective squads.

* Reavers look good. Lance on their melee weapons means they hit harder on the charge. Very fluffy. Their fly-by attack seems useful and easy to resolve, although does the term "Normal move" mean they can't eviscerate things if they advance? Weird oversight if so.

* Oh hi, heat lance. I didn't see you there. Wow. You've really matured since last edition. Is that 14 Strength and melta 3? My Sororitas friends would love to meet you. What am I taking for anti-tank these days? Well, I was fielding blasters, but I think we might be breaking up soon. Say, are you busy during this weekend's raid?

* Okay, scourges. Your move-shoot-move rule is really fluffy and something I've wanted since I started playing you, but did we really have to make all your anti-tank guns hit on 4+. Yeah, I know they're heavy now, but you see how holding still is going to work against that whole move-shoot-move thing you've got going now, right? What's that? Blasters still hit on a 3+? Guys, I didn't want to say this in front of blaster, but you know he's competing against your haywires and heatlances, right? Heck, even your dark lances are a consideration now that I can hide you after you shoot.

* Hello, succubsu. It's been 5 editions since you scraped your knee and stopped riding your bike. Did you want to try getting back on and hanging out with reavers? Or maybe give hellion boarding a try? No? You just want to hang out with your wyches? I guess that's fine. Maybe branch out and spend some time with some incubi or- No? Just wyches. Okay then. I understand. I know they get a little lazy and stop fighting first when you aren't keeping an eye on them.

* Hi wracks. How many attacks do you have this edition? Oh. Well, your special rule kicks in when you die, right? Great! Why don't you go ahead and say hi to the enemy, champs. What do you mean your a ranged unit now? You're the only mandatory hq troop who got to keep their minimum squad size of 5, and 4 out of 5 of you can take a special gun? But the guns all have wildly different ranges. I see. Well wracks, I"m not sure what to do with you, but I lose free pain tokens if I don't field your boss, and your boss isn't allowed to hang out with anyone else this edition. So uh. I guess we'll figure something out.

* Hey wyches. How are we doing? You uh. You don't look so good. You're in withdrawals from quitting combat drugs? I mean, I applaud your life choices, but didn't you need those to, you know, kill stuff? Especially now that you don't have obsessions giving you extra strength or attacks? Oh, what am I talking about. You've probably got great base stats, right? Uh. Hm. You know that's only 1 more attack than the warriors have right? At the same strength? And almost hte same AP? Is this why the warriors think they're a melee unit now? No. No. It's fine. We're fine. Listen, Lelith has started this workout club. Maybe you guys can joing up with her? Start pumping some iron. Get that strength stat back up? You know that extra point of strength would go really well with those wych weapons you guys are famouse for. Say, where are those? You don't know? You left them at a party along with your hekatrix's power sword? Well go back there and get them! You don't know where the party was? Ah. Because of the combat drugs. Yes, It's all coming together now.

TLDR;
Oof. That's slightly worse than I was afraid of. We're less customizable than ever. Our vehicles' main save got halved in an edition that wants to decrease lethality. Until we get a codex, we have to choose between having GW pick our first 6 units for us and passing up on extra pain tokens. Sorry. First 9* units. Unless you plan to walk your warriors, wyches, and wracks across the table. Our characters are weirdly limited in what units they can join. We can't pick the squad size of half our units now. 10th edition went to the trouble of giving big chonky land raiders an assault rule, but then opted not to share it with the open-topped raiders belonging to the notoriously fast army. Also, GW took my chain snares away and ramming prows away, and I can't help but think that was aimed at me personally because they know how much I liked my chain snares and shock prows.

But on the plus side, our anti-tank situation might actually be okay despite blasters getting nerfed as long as you like reavers, ravagers, and scourges.

Reading through this index was kind of draining. I'm glad a lot of our units seem to be playable, but gosh I miss the 5th edition book.

Comparing Asurmen and Autarchs to Space Marine Captains leaves them looking a little lackluster - Asurmen only gives you only THAT specific freebie repeatable strat, while the captain does them all. The autarch only allow you to repeat but not for free unless (kinda/sorta) if one is your warlord for +1 CP. On the flip side, repeat strats are once per turn not once per battle round. That's going to lead to some "fun" grass-is-greener discussions.

The Avatar is immense. And he needs to be. T12, 2+, 14W halve incoming damage but no leading, no lone operative, no hiding.

Dark Reapers are not Heavy, but also are already 3+.

Dire Avengers appear to have a native 5++, and a camper bespoke to really play up their above average shooting.

Eldrad's bespokes are nice, but he himself is less than I expected. He's not bad, I just expected better.

Then again as I look at the other Farseers with only 2A in melee maybe he's better than I thought.

Hellloooooo Firepike. Sure it's exarch only, but we've seen hidden power fists before. Just not with an 18" Range Melta 3 on it. I'm betting Sisters would take the Emperor's left... pauldron for it.

The Fire Prism has likely been pointed at for nerfing enough by now.

The Guardian Platform is no longer optional, and the squad is or looks to be set at 10+1 which is a weird flex giving people shooting at them 3 Bonus Blast shots.

The Wraith Fighter looks good. And potentially annoying if the Eldar Player wants to play Battle Shock games.

Howling Banshee appear to be ready to kill units by using the Thousand Cuts method. Each turn. Lots of -3 D1 attacks. And a 5++ that gets 1 better in melee.

Shining Spears are impressive.

Spirit Seer gets to Medic Wraithbone if they lead it again.

Wraithbone heavy, or an all out Phoenix Lord Collect em All Pokemon list both look really nice.

War Walkers are REALLY lucky they have an invuln.

The Webway gate has some gotcha! potential that could end up being pretty funny. To everyone that didn't get got.

Some version of:
Avatar
3 Spiritseers

30 Wrathblades
30 Wraithguard

3 Wraith Lords

1 Wraith Knight

Or however much of that fits in 2,000 points might be pretty un-fun to run up against. Especially if you also have to prepare for a bunch of Aspect Warriors and Phoenix Lords in the next game over.

I think what people are forgetting is that the HQs are now locked in with certain units.

Take for example the Autarch. On paper he looks cool, but when you look at what units he can join his usefulness drops. On foot he can only join guardians and on bike he can only join Windriders.

Yep, which makes no sense because Autarchs are supposed to be super-aspect warriors, not super-guardians.

Scorpions vs Banshees made me sigh a little.
Yet again, it feels like taking scorpions is a mistake.

Harlequins lost the use of their flip-belts?

Not going to touch Craftworlds but let's look at the others:

Harlequins:

Completely gutted to the point where there is no meaningful distinction between them and Craftworlders.

Faction rules to call their own? Gone.

Artefacts/Stratagems/Anything else of their own? Also gone.

Abilities to represent their movement/agility? Gone apart from on the Shadowseer, and even those are a pale shadow of what they've had for the lest 3 editions.

Also, remember those really awesome Pivotal Role abilities they got in 9th? Yep, they're gone too.

Also also, hope you didn't enjoy using Mirror of Minds or any such on the Shadowseer because now it's melee or bust for him.


Ynnari

Oh look, another faction that has been subsumed wholesale into the increasingly flabby stomach of the Craftworlders.

You now have to have Yvraine as your warlord to run a Ynnari army (because apparently the idea of delegation never reached these particular space elves and thus Yvraine must personally preside over every single engagement ever).

However, this is all irrelevant anyway because, like Harlequins, Ynnari is now a completely meaningless concept. It doesn't actually change anything about how your units play or what enhancements you can take. But you can add some Drukhari units to your army if, for example, you think your HQs aren't quite gak enough.


Which leads us neatly to DE.

As mentioned previously, they have a faction ability but no detachment ability. Because, for any other faction in the game, their alleged detachment ability would simply be included either in the faction ability or on the dataslates of the relevant HQs. Joyfully, though, DE remain the absolute nadir of game design. And thus their detachment ability is the equivalent of day-one DLC for their faction ability.

As you'd expect, the enhancements are the epitome of the dull, flavourless design that drips from every corner of this ever neglected faction.

The one positive is that in 2066 or whenever GW can be arsed releasing the DE codex, there will be absolutely nothing to make DE players want to stick with this dismal pile of filth.

The only downside, apart from the aforementioned release date of said codex, is that the units themselves are every bit as dismal. A fact that seems unlikely to change any time soon.


The Archon - The supreme leader of DE raids, with access to a personal armoury of artefacts and weapons. This is represented by a single melee weapon and a choice between 2 pistols (one is a water-pistol, the other is basically a melee weapon in all but name as its range is so short it won't fire unless you're pointing it up your target's nose). The Huskblade, incidentally, is S3 AP-2 D2 Anti-Infantry 3+. A reasonable profile, so long as your opponent isn't one of those WAAC types who includes units like Monsters, or who puts his infantry on Bikes.

Because of the overwhelming choice of pistols, all other options (such as they were) have been removed from the Archon.

In terms of abilities, he has two - one lets his unit reroll wounds (1s normally, all wounds when empowered), the other is a 1/battle ability that's basically identical to the current Agents of Vect stratagem.

There is, however, one small problem - neither of these abilities work if the Archon is in a transport.

Oh and if you're thinking he can just join Incubi to improve their otherwise dismal profile, then your brain is clearly small compared to those at GW. Because of course the Archon can't join Incubi. Or indeed anything but Warriors and the godawful Court.

The Haemonculus! So what of the mad scientists of the Dark City? Well if you felt that the Archon's excessive selection of options was making your head spin, GW has you covered. For the mad scientists, known for trying out all manner of esoteric weapons, arcane artefacts and nightmarish devices have not a single option available.

His weapon is AP-1 S3 AP-1 Dd3 Anti-Infantry 2+, Precision. The anti-infantry thing is sounding a little familiar. Can't remember where I've seen it before.

His abilities are twofold. Firstly, he upgrades the FNP save of the unit he joins from 5+ to 4+ (which is dull but functional). The second is a -1 Ld aura, which is as exciting as it sounds and it sounds like this "bggggllllleeeeegggggghhhhhh".

He can join Wracks. Nothing else. I guess he just forgot how to manage his grotesques. And, naturally, he can't join Warriors or Wyches like he could in past editions, because under no circumstances should DE players be reminded of past editions where their army actually felt cohesive.


The Succubus! Unlike her predecessors, the Succubus has a vast array of melee weapons, which just so happen to all be represented by the exact same profile. Alas, I regret to say that GW have forgotten the lessons of the Haemonculus and have once again presented DE players with a choice of 2 pistols. I suspect there will be many cases of melting brains before the week is out.

Her weapon is S3 AP-1 D1; Anti-Infantry 3+ The jury is still out on what purpose it serves but we're expecting a verdict sometime within the next 3 months.

Her abilities are to give her unit Sustained Hits 1. Also, if she's Empowered, they get ASF as well! I don't know why an HQ meant to be fast needs to be specially empowered in order to actually be fast, but that just goes to show how inferior my brain is compared to those in GW HQ.

Oh and she can only join Wyches because GW's idea of fun transcends the understanding of mere mortals.



I should add that I'm writing this before looking at the points, so I look forward to someone inevitably saying that DE is efficient/powerful and thus there is no requirement whatsoever that they be in any way fun to play. Indeed, the latter sentiment seems to sum up the collective thoughts of the GW design team.

The design team doesn't want Harlequin players to have fun, full stop.

Hecaton wrote:
The design team doesn't want Harlequin players to have fun, full stop.

Harlequins are going to be paying for the sins of the rules writers

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
The design team doesn't want Harlequin players to have fun, full stop.

Harlequins are going to be paying for the sins of the rules writers

Yeah. I know it's an index, but it does sort of feel like they're punishing (or at least being hyper-cautious with) units that they thought were too good in 9th? So like, harlequins had a good run, so they took away some of their tools including seemingly obvious ones like their flip belts and speed. The triptych whip succubus and Strife wyches were one of the first obvious forms of power creep in 9th, so now wyches have 3 Attacks at S3, and the succubus basically has no wargear options.

I guess optimistically(?) I could hope that this is their way of just putting a pin in details that they don't have the bandwidth to think about in the index-writing stage? Like, maybe wych and harlequins weapons will be a thing in the codices. Maybe they'll have flavorful rules that the designers just didn't want to get bogged down writing until after they'd seen the basics of 10th in action. These are indices, after all, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if things like exarch powers and pivotal roles came back later on.

But yeah. Craftworlders look like they have some fun toys, but I bet people will generally lean towards brute force lists that that will earn them a nasty reputation and get them nerfed early on.
Drukhari are going to have an okay win rate that makes people tell DE players to stop complaining, but the first 9 units of every list will be an archon, haemi, succubus, warriors, wracks, wychs, and 3 ravagers.
Harlequins... don't seem like they'll see a ton of play for a while. Not because they look awful but because they're bland. None of the fluffy, quirky, customizable elements that made me start collecting harlequins are present in these harlequin rules. Maybe I'd splash a squad into a list for fluff reasons? (I play Ynnari and Poison Tongue.)

 Wyldhunt wrote:


But yeah. Craftworlders look like they have some fun toys, but I bet people will generally lean towards brute force lists that that will earn them a nasty reputation and get them nerfed early on.
Drukhari are going to have an okay win rate that makes people tell DE players to stop complaining, but the first 9 units of every list will be an archon, haemi, succubus, warriors, wracks, wychs, and 3 ravagers.
Harlequins... don't seem like they'll see a ton of play for a while. Not because they look awful but because they're bland. None of the fluffy, quirky, customizable elements that made me start collecting harlequins are present in these harlequin rules. Maybe I'd splash a squad into a list for fluff reasons? (I play Ynnari and Poison Tongue.)

So back to the same-old same-old huh?

The only question I need answering. And no, “go and read it” won’t answer because I lack the current frame of reference to balance such things?

Is The Avatar Well Hard, Or A Wet Lettuce?

2nd and 9th Ed Avatar I’d call Well Hard. 3rd-8th Wet Lettuce.

Did y'all notice that Kalabites are now stuck with one of each weapon? Fun stuff

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The only question I need answering. And no, “go and read it” won’t answer because I lack the current frame of reference to balance such things?

Is The Avatar Well Hard, Or A Wet Lettuce?

2nd and 9th Ed Avatar I’d call Well Hard. 3rd-8th Wet Lettuce.

Mortal wounds get around a lot, however there isn't a lot of anti-monster or anti-character, so he's safer than infantry or vehicles. There are some 'this unit crits on 5+' abilities, which can work around the relative lack of anti-monster.

But in general, T12, half damage, 14W and 2+/4++ is really solid defensively, especially with Strands of Fate to just say 'screw you, no' when you really need to make a save.
Factions that lack dedicated anti-tank weapons are going to struggle hard to bring him down.

His biggest loss is being an Epic Hero, so he can't take the Phoenix Gem to get back up after being killed.

But is Hims reasonably fighty for his stature?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But is Hims reasonably fighty for his stature?

Shockingly so. Strike or sweep is pretty nuts, and there's very little he doesn't wound on at least 3+ if not 2+ (if need be). AP is -4, damage is high. Land raider, knight or a full squad, he's got a good run at it.
The ranged attack is even better (higher strength) and you can sneak in [sustained attack d3] far more often, even when being cautious with fate dice.

He's also ridiculously fast compared to Avatars past. 10" lets him be out front, while past editions had him gumming up the entire battleplan because he couldn't keep up with the army.

He isn't perfect, and will probably run into even-more-killy opponents from time to time, but the Avatar looks really solid. And to be honest a lot of the other eldar characters look like they'll fall over to a stiff wind.

 vipoid wrote:

I should add that I'm writing this before looking at the points, so I look forward to someone inevitably saying that DE is efficient/powerful and thus there is no requirement whatsoever that they be in any way fun to play. Indeed, the latter sentiment seems to sum up the collective thoughts of the GW design team.

Points are out and you are correct. Super bland no real assault worth investing.. BUT theres a metric shitton of dark lances. Seems like they did the 95 pt ravager to placate DE players with.. something to do well. So trip ravs trip scourges it is.

Before anyone says whoohoo thats just like the 5th-7th lists.. no its not. Not even close. This is something else entirely. And that mono build is necessary because of anti infantry poison and weak assault.
I honestly feel like GW is cost cutting maybe even reducing the work force and the software they use. And here is the result. Trash product. May as well be buying this gak on scamazon.

BUT go read goon, FLG, bols etc and its like the best release evar. What a joke.

dominuschao wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I should add that I'm writing this before looking at the points, so I look forward to someone inevitably saying that DE is efficient/powerful and thus there is no requirement whatsoever that they be in any way fun to play. Indeed, the latter sentiment seems to sum up the collective thoughts of the GW design team.

Points are out and you are correct. Super bland no real assault worth investing.. BUT theres a metric shitton of dark lances. Seems like they did the 95 pt ravager to placate DE players with.. something to do well. So trip ravs trip scourges it is.

Before anyone says whoohoo thats just like the 5th-7th lists.. no its not. Not even close. This is something else entirely. And that mono build is necessary because of anti infantry poison and weak assault.
I honestly feel like GW is cost cutting maybe even reducing the work force and the software they use. And here is the result. Trash product. May as well be buying this gak on scamazon.

BUT go read goon, FLG, bols etc and its like the best release evar. What a joke.

The depressing thing is the core rules (with glossary) seem like a really good base.

But then they’ve made some very dubious list construction choices and added a complete disaster of a ‘points’ system.

Could have been great. Instead it’s terrible.

Those base rules, combined with army lists with actual choices (and much more permissive options for characters joining units) plus actual points for actual upgrades and you could have had a really good game.

The wasted potential is the most frustrating bit about the whole sorry saga.

dominuschao wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I should add that I'm writing this before looking at the points, so I look forward to someone inevitably saying that DE is efficient/powerful and thus there is no requirement whatsoever that they be in any way fun to play. Indeed, the latter sentiment seems to sum up the collective thoughts of the GW design team.

Points are out and you are correct. Super bland no real assault worth investing.. BUT theres a metric shitton of dark lances. Seems like they did the 95 pt ravager to placate DE players with.. something to do well. So trip ravs trip scourges it is.

Before anyone says whoohoo thats just like the 5th-7th lists.. no its not. Not even close. This is something else entirely. And that mono build is necessary because of anti infantry poison and weak assault.
I honestly feel like GW is cost cutting maybe even reducing the work force and the software they use. And here is the result. Trash product. May as well be buying this gak on scamazon.

BUT go read goon, FLG, bols etc and its like the best release evar. What a joke.

Don't trust the Goons at Goonhammer. 95% of the time they've defended GWs poor choices so they could still get their access to early stuff.

Right and if someone calls them out in a post its deleted.


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Lord Zarkov wrote:

dominuschao wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I should add that I'm writing this before looking at the points, so I look forward to someone inevitably saying that DE is efficient/powerful and thus there is no requirement whatsoever that they be in any way fun to play. Indeed, the latter sentiment seems to sum up the collective thoughts of the GW design team.

Points are out and you are correct. Super bland no real assault worth investing.. BUT theres a metric shitton of dark lances. Seems like they did the 95 pt ravager to placate DE players with.. something to do well. So trip ravs trip scourges it is.

Before anyone says whoohoo thats just like the 5th-7th lists.. no its not. Not even close. This is something else entirely. And that mono build is necessary because of anti infantry poison and weak assault.
I honestly feel like GW is cost cutting maybe even reducing the work force and the software they use. And here is the result. Trash product. May as well be buying this gak on scamazon.

BUT go read goon, FLG, bols etc and its like the best release evar. What a joke.

The depressing thing is the core rules (with glossary) seem like a really good base.

But then they’ve made some very dubious list construction choices and added a complete disaster of a ‘points’ system.

Could have been great. Instead it’s terrible.

Those base rules, combined with army lists with actual choices (and much more permissive options for characters joining units) plus actual points for actual upgrades and you could have had a really good game.

The wasted potential is the most frustrating bit about the whole sorry saga.

Honestly I don't even know how this mess could be fixed.

So going back to the Avatar for a moment, the 'rules commentary' actually has a section about abilities that modify a damage characteristic and devastating wounds / mortal wounds:

it actually totally works. Surprise!
For reasons that aren't even vaguely explained, you modify the Damage of the attack before the mortal wounds conversion.

So if you pull out the big knight harpoon and shoot the Avatar, he gets to say no to taking 12 mortal wounds. Because reasons, he'll take 6.

page 18 of more rules wrote:When a rule modifies an attack’s Damage characteristic, if that
attacks scores a Critical Wound, the Damage characteristic is
modified before the damage is applied as mortal wounds

Though he isn't as cool as Uthar the Destined, who changes all damage values to 1.
(But Uthar only has 5 wounds, so can get murdered by a single sniper squad in one round).

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think what people are forgetting is that the HQs are now locked in with certain units.

Take for example the Autarch. On paper he looks cool, but when you look at what units he can join his usefulness drops. On foot he can only join guardians and on bike he can only join Windriders.

The Autarch was not even in my top 10 on the datasheets - I'm loading up on Wraith, Avatar, and seers, or I'm loading up on Phoenix Lords, Aspects, and Support Weapons... Eldar probably have at least 3 distinctly different viable builds.

I'm not sure any one build is top of the top tier, but I think they have at least two top tier builds. And I think that's good. I think every faction should have at least two distinct top-tier builds. I'd like to see them maintain lower damage thresholds while adding a different build to the other armies.

(Generic/Codex) Marines may have two as well but I'm not as sure.

So assuming you want to benefit from the dark eldar detachment rules, and assuming you want to be able to kill tanks, here's what I expect most drukhari lists to look like:

85 - Archon
120 - Warriors
75- Haemonculus
65 - Wracks x 5
70 - Succubus
110 - Wyches
285 - 3 Ravagares
360 - 3 Scourge squads
180 - 2 Raiders (for the wyches and warriors)
80 - 1 Venom (for the wracks)
----------------------
1430 points

Pain tokens are neat and all, but I'm thinking it might be worth dropping 2 of the characters and their bodyguards (basically opting to not benefit from our detachment benefits) and squeeze in some reavers or incubi instead.

Of the three, I'd probably be most inclined to drop the wyches. They just seem really limp at the moment. I'm not sure they're able to kill much, but they're also not tough enough to be a tarpit. Replacing the succubus with Lelith maybe makes them more viable.

Wracks don't seem like they'll accomplish much no matter how you field them. Small squads with guns are cute, but don't look all that killy. Big squads with a haemi don't seem all that durable, no do they become killy. So I feel like they're at their most useful when they're left cheap and sent off to die for the extra token.

Warriors are the most expensive option, but their splinters *did* get better (against infantry) this edition, and they do bring an extra dark lance to the table.

So yeah. Maybe drop the wyches and/or wracks and their bosses? And at that point, it's only 20 more points to swap out your archon (who can only threaten infantry) with Drazhar. He and some incubi will blend infantry way better than wyches and hunt characters way better than a haemi and some wracks and will be able to threaten basically anything T7 or less reasonably well (instead of only threatening infantry and low-Toughness targets).

Yeah. The more I look at it, the more I think we're better off just not leaning into the detachment benefits at all.

Breton wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think what people are forgetting is that the HQs are now locked in with certain units.

Take for example the Autarch. On paper he looks cool, but when you look at what units he can join his usefulness drops. On foot he can only join guardians and on bike he can only join Windriders.

The Autarch was not even in my top 10 on the datasheets - I'm loading up on Wraith, Avatar, and seers, or I'm loading up on Phoenix Lords, Aspects, and Support Weapons... Eldar probably have at least 3 distinctly different viable builds.

I'm not sure any one build is top of the top tier, but I think they have at least two top tier builds. And I think that's good. I think every faction should have at least two distinct top-tier builds. I'd like to see them maintain lower damage thresholds while adding a different build to the other armies.

(Generic/Codex) Marines may have two as well but I'm not as sure.

Marines unapologetically have a lot. They won't always be perfect, but they have so much stuff to pick from that they can build for whatever.
Their worst 'problem' is some units just aren't points-efficient. They have the tools to deal with everything, so it just becomes a math game to tetris it down into working lists.

Hellblasters + apothecary (one with the bolter discipline enhancement, which obviously shouldn't work but does) spam is probably going to be a thing for a while.

And blade storm working on scatter lasers is something different?

Plus eldar have it all. They don't just have stats and good rules. They are build for the edition to work fine AND on top of that they are super aggresivly costed.

My dudes are, designed to be very fast, contesting or jumping on objectives is easy. But the units cost a ton of points, aren't that resilient, have internalt problems of not being able to run enough termintor squads to hide all characters, and most important the damage efficiency is really low and requires doing melee, at which GK aren't that good vs melee armies.

Eldar do not really have any bad sides entering 10th ed. Bar stuff not really related to army or faction efficiency.

Craftworld are gamebreakingly overpowered no surprise there. Hopefully TOs will do the right thing and mass ban Craftworld lists from competing, which will piss off a lot of people and force GW to do something about it.

feth that ban this whole edition. Jesus how many people are going to keep paying money for a gak product? Refuse to buy or play it until they produce a quality product again.


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The community hated power level but here they are again shoving it at us.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Craftworld are gamebreakingly overpowered no surprise there. Hopefully TOs will do the right thing and mass ban Craftworld lists from competing, which will piss off a lot of people and force GW to do something about it.

Eldar have always been the best barometer for edition health. You can always tell how good an edition will be based on how mind-shatteringly overpowered Eldar are, with their more extreme examples lining up perfectly with the really gak editions.

Some of the armies play so god damn well into each other. Played 4 games now. The system can be so fun, but Eldar are so effing stupid it's beyond reason. Getting 15 dice with Eldrad and rerolls until you get a decent handful of 6s and then auto-deleting entire units with a single shot from a WK.

I cancelled my pre-order and sent GW a message. I'll still play for now, but they need to get of their asses real quick or else I'm just going to do other stuff.