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So Sisters get one, the Eldar the other....which is best and why?
* One big element seems to be Eldar get at least 12 from the very start and Sisters.....get 1?
* Both can get more or replace used ones....
Miracle Dice
Spoiler:
GAINING MIRACLE DICE: If your Army Faction is Adepta Sororitas, you gain 1 Miracle dice:
■ At the start of each turn.
■ Each time an Adepta Sororitas unit from your army is destroyed.
Each time you gain a Miracle dice, roll one D6. The number you roll is the value of that Miracle dice. This value cannot be changed or re-rolled, unless a rule specifically states otherwise. Keep your Miracle dice
to one side – this is your Miracle dice pool. Before making a dice roll for a model or unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability, if you have one or more dice in your Miracle dice pool, that unit can
perform an Act of Faith. If it does, select one of the dice from your Miracle dice pool to substitute that dice roll (if a roll involves more than one dice, e.g. a Charge roll or Battle-shock test, only a single dice can be substituted). The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead the value of the selected Miracle dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules
purposes). Each Miracle dice can only be selected for substitution once. Once all Miracle dice substitutions have been made, remove the chosen Miracle dice from your Miracle dice pool, and roll all remaining,
unsubstituted dice that are a part of the dice roll. You can use Miracle dice when a unit performs an Act of Faith for any of the following types of dice roll:
■ Advance roll
■ Battle-shock test
■ Charge roll
■ Damage roll
■ Hit roll
■ Saving throw
■ Wound roll
Fate Dice
Spoiler:
If your Army Faction is Aeldari, at the start of the battle, make a Strands of Fate roll by rolling twelve D6. If you wish, you can then re-roll all of these dice, but
if you do, roll one less D6. You can continue re-rolling all of the dice in this manner, rolling one less D6 each time you do, until you are satisfied with the results
rolled (or until you only have a single D6 remaining). When you are satisfied with the results rolled, those remaining dice become your Fate dice for the battle.
These results cannot be changed or re-rolled further, unless a rule specifically states otherwise. Keep your Fate dice to one side – this is your Fate dice pool.
Before making a dice roll for a model or unit from your army with the Strands of Fate ability, if you have one or more dice in your Fate dice pool, you can use one
of those Fate dice. To do so, select one of those Fate dice to substitute that dice roll. The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead, the value of the
selected Fate dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules purposes). Each Fate dice can only be used in
this way once. After using a Fate dice, remove it from your Fate dice pool and roll all remaining dice that are part of that dice roll (if any). You can use Fate dice for
any of the following types of dice roll:
■ Advance roll
■ Battle-shock test
■ Charge roll
■ Damage roll
■ Hit roll
■ Saving throw
■ Wound roll
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/16 12:30:54
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Breton wrote: Its almost always better to get front loaded abilities you can use most/best when you have most/all of your models to use them on.
It feels like Sisters shouldn't be that bad off, but that they are currently pushed into a beta strike role while Eldar can alpha strike. If Sisters players take a pair of battle sisters units to camp deployment zone objectives they'll end up with between 5 and 6 miracle dice by turn two even if nothing dies. This can be upped if you force the enemy to clear chaff and/or if you suicide a character with the d3 miracle dice on death enhancement into the enemy lines.
Breton wrote: Its almost always better to get front loaded abilities you can use most/best when you have most/all of your models to use them on.
It feels like Sisters shouldn't be that bad off, but that they are currently pushed into a beta strike role while Eldar can alpha strike. If Sisters players take a pair of battle sisters units to camp deployment zone objectives they'll end up with between 5 and 6 miracle dice by turn two even if nothing dies. This can be upped if you force the enemy to clear chaff and/or if you suicide a character with the d3 miracle dice on death enhancement into the enemy lines.
They probably are that bad off though - and its also still pretty axiomatic - Front Loading lets you pick any turn including Turn 1 - when you have all your models and abilities - for your strike. On Round 1 Turn 1, Aeldari can/will have all their dice, Sisters will have a fraction of theirs. Sacrificing a character for D3 dice absolutely requires you not have all your models - because you had to sacrifice at least the character.
I think over the course of a game the sister player is going to get a lot more dice then the eldar. The eldar need to be holding objectives or killing units with some very specific units to get dice. Sisters get them per turn, when they die, and from a few other sources. Plus can get instant rebates when spending them to have more to use.
Granted, front loading is very nice. But I suspect the sisters might be tossing twice as many over the course of a game.
Breton wrote: They probably are that bad off though - and its also still pretty axiomatic - Front Loading lets you pick any turn including Turn 1 - when you have all your models and abilities - for your strike. On Round 1 Turn 1, Aeldari can/will have all their dice, Sisters will have a fraction of theirs. Sacrificing a character for D3 dice absolutely requires you not have all your models - because you had to sacrifice at least the character.
That character can be as few as 45 points including the enhancement, 90 points if you want to stick him with some arco-flagellants to suicide missile at a central objective. It might not end up being worth doing, but you can have 8 or 9 dice by the start of turn 2 even if you go first. Sisters with the Triumph and a Dialogus also get to use them better than the Eldar so they can easily have teeth even at turn 3 or 4 while the Eldar are already running out of steam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/17 02:40:39
Breton wrote: They probably are that bad off though - and its also still pretty axiomatic - Front Loading lets you pick any turn including Turn 1 - when you have all your models and abilities - for your strike. On Round 1 Turn 1, Aeldari can/will have all their dice, Sisters will have a fraction of theirs. Sacrificing a character for D3 dice absolutely requires you not have all your models - because you had to sacrifice at least the character.
That character can be as few as 45 points including the enhancement, 90 points if you want to stick him with some arco-flagellants to suicide missile at a central objective. It might not end up being worth doing, but you can have 8 or 9 dice by the start of turn 2 even if you go first. Sisters with the Triumph and a Dialogus also get to use them better than the Eldar so they can easily have teeth even at turn 3 or 4 while the Eldar are already running out of steam.
2 Problems with this: 1. What unit do Sisters have that can actually do anything with miracle dice? Pretty much just the Exorcist, right? Paragons have Vahl, the Castigator has fixed damage, and Retributors are 18" range. Eldar have good units with meaningful attacks to use dice on. Sisters kind of don't.
2. By turn 3, most of the sisters army is already dead. Our units went down in durability and stayed the same in points while everyone is getting free wargear. One decent indirect fire weapon will wipe pretty much all the infantry off the table in two turns.
Strands of fate are MASSIVELY superior, even when taken holistically.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/17 02:48:55
ERJAK wrote: 2 Problems with this: 1. What unit do Sisters have that can actually do anything with miracle dice? Pretty much just the Exorcist, right? Paragons have Vahl, the Castigator has fixed damage, and Retributors are 18" range. Eldar have good units with meaningful attacks to use dice on. Sisters kind of don't.
2. By turn 3, most of the sisters army is already dead. Our units went down in durability and stayed the same in points while everyone is getting free wargear. One decent indirect fire weapon will wipe pretty much all the infantry off the table in two turns.
Strands of fate are MASSIVELY superior, even when taken holistically.
I feel like Retributors with a Dialogus in an Immolator kept in reserves might be something Sisters make use of. If you don't think you'll have enough dice to use them in earlier turns hiding them off the board could make sense.
ERJAK wrote: 2 Problems with this: 1. What unit do Sisters have that can actually do anything with miracle dice? Pretty much just the Exorcist, right? Paragons have Vahl, the Castigator has fixed damage, and Retributors are 18" range. Eldar have good units with meaningful attacks to use dice on. Sisters kind of don't.
2. By turn 3, most of the sisters army is already dead. Our units went down in durability and stayed the same in points while everyone is getting free wargear. One decent indirect fire weapon will wipe pretty much all the infantry off the table in two turns.
Strands of fate are MASSIVELY superior, even when taken holistically.
I feel like Retributors with a Dialogus in an Immolator kept in reserves might be something Sisters make use of. If you don't think you'll have enough dice to use them in earlier turns hiding them off the board could make sense.
Keeping over 300 points of your army in reserve in the hopes of generating enough high rolled miracle dice seems a great way to guarantee you are losing by the time they come in.
Fate Dice are way better as it stands right now. You have more of them at the start and you can use multiple of them on a single unit in a phase. Eldar also have way better units to use their fate dice on then Sisters do for their miracle dice.
The reason being that Miracle Dice feel very much like a crutch for SoB. e.g. to prop up their unreliable Exorcists or the fact that their main anti-vehicle weapons will usually be wounding on 5s.
Meanwhile, Eldar seem to already be pretty efficient and are nowhere near as reliant on this mechanic to function well. Thus, whilst they may get fewer dice overall, they can use all of them on the most important rolls (usually damage).
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
The reason being that Miracle Dice feel very much like a crutch for SoB. e.g. to prop up their unreliable Exorcists or the fact that their main anti-vehicle weapons will usually be wounding on 5s.
Meanwhile, Eldar seem to already be pretty efficient and are nowhere near as reliant on this mechanic to function well. Thus, whilst they may get fewer dice overall, they can use all of them on the most important rolls (usually damage).
I suspect Fate Dice will matter a lot more for Craftworlds when they aren't also using a detachment that hands out free rerolls to the entire army. Non-Battle Hosts will really value their Fate Dice.
It doesn’t matter. They are not constructing the armies on the basis of equal Army Rules. If Fate Dice are better than Miracle Dice, then there is other compensation that make X Point Army of Aeldari equals to am as well constructed X Point Army of Adepta Sororitas.
ERJAK wrote: 2 Problems with this: 1. What unit do Sisters have that can actually do anything with miracle dice? Pretty much just the Exorcist, right? Paragons have Vahl, the Castigator has fixed damage, and Retributors are 18" range. Eldar have good units with meaningful attacks to use dice on. Sisters kind of don't.
2. By turn 3, most of the sisters army is already dead. Our units went down in durability and stayed the same in points while everyone is getting free wargear. One decent indirect fire weapon will wipe pretty much all the infantry off the table in two turns.
Strands of fate are MASSIVELY superior, even when taken holistically.
I feel like Retributors with a Dialogus in an Immolator kept in reserves might be something Sisters make use of. If you don't think you'll have enough dice to use them in earlier turns hiding them off the board could make sense.
Keeping over 300 points of your army in reserve in the hopes of generating enough high rolled miracle dice seems a great way to guarantee you are losing by the time they come in.
The Dialogus makes all of the Miracle Dice that you use count as sixes. Similarly, if you use Triumph of Saint Katherine, then you can use as many dice as you have while in the aura, giving the one unit of Rets with Dialogus a pretty big nova turn. Once you get into 18" range. Assuming you survive.
That said, Rets also get two Cherubim, which recycle the dice used on the Rets. And you can use the miracle dice for saves. If you have them. I don't think that that particular attempt at a death start is good, but it can't be ignored.
alextroy wrote: It doesn’t matter. They are not constructing the armies on the basis of equal Army Rules. If Fate Dice are better than Miracle Dice, then there is other compensation that make X Point Army of Aeldari equals to am as well constructed X Point Army of Adepta Sororitas.
Except it isn't.
Eldar's detachment benefit is also better. So are stratagems and enhancements.
Additionally, Eldar datasheets are far and way more powerful, point for point.
ERJAK wrote: 2 Problems with this: 1. What unit do Sisters have that can actually do anything with miracle dice? Pretty much just the Exorcist, right? Paragons have Vahl, the Castigator has fixed damage, and Retributors are 18" range. Eldar have good units with meaningful attacks to use dice on. Sisters kind of don't.
2. By turn 3, most of the sisters army is already dead. Our units went down in durability and stayed the same in points while everyone is getting free wargear. One decent indirect fire weapon will wipe pretty much all the infantry off the table in two turns.
Strands of fate are MASSIVELY superior, even when taken holistically.
I feel like Retributors with a Dialogus in an Immolator kept in reserves might be something Sisters make use of. If you don't think you'll have enough dice to use them in earlier turns hiding them off the board could make sense.
Keeping over 300 points of your army in reserve in the hopes of generating enough high rolled miracle dice seems a great way to guarantee you are losing by the time they come in.
The Dialogus makes all of the Miracle Dice that you use count as sixes. Similarly, if you use Triumph of Saint Katherine, then you can use as many dice as you have while in the aura, giving the one unit of Rets with Dialogus a pretty big nova turn. Once you get into 18" range. Assuming you survive.
That said, Rets also get two Cherubim, which recycle the dice used on the Rets. And you can use the miracle dice for saves. If you have them. I don't think that that particular attempt at a death start is good, but it can't be ignored.
...If it's not good, it absolutely CAN be ignored.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/18 04:43:57
alextroy wrote: It doesn’t matter. They are not constructing the armies on the basis of equal Army Rules. If Fate Dice are better than Miracle Dice, then there is other compensation that make X Point Army of Aeldari equals to am as well constructed X Point Army of Adepta Sororitas.
I do is I feel a valid point of comparision, more so than most - Surely army abilities should be roughly equal?
What do you feel is the balancing element that makes the Sisters units better than the Eldar - which do seem very powerful - almost on level with the Marines?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/18 09:01:31
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I think many folks are still answering this question as if the Sisters dex isn't out.
Someone mentioned farming for MD with BSS; that's not how it works now- any unit with a Simulacrum farms MD the way BSS used to; BSS now sticky objectives.
Someone mentioned the Eldar detachment is better- as if Sisters only have one to choose from.
Someone made a comment about everyone else getting free equipment, but our MD farming simulcra and our extra MD cherubs are all also all free equipment.
Having a dex, I think sisters currently have more tools to manipulate MD- increasing their value, getting to use more per AoF, not losing them when they're spent, trading them for other effects.
We'll need to have this conversation again when the Eldar dex drops.
True- each unit that can farm MD, will only succeed 50% of the time- and that is certainly less reliable than what we had.
But count the number of units in your army pre-codex who could farm vs how many units in your army can farm now. If the number has more than doubled, then we're at a net MD gain.
Now I always planned to take enough BSS to farm- I also like the unit and feel like it is the backbone of the army. But a lot of other folks didn't load up on BSS.
In both versions, MD were always going to be limited by the number of objectives on the table. With the new version, since the effect is not guaranteed, I do wish they had allowed each unit in range to make the roll- so if an objective has three units with simulacra in range, sure it can only grant one Md, but you do get 3 rolls to try and make it happen.
Unfortunately, they didn't word it that way.
The Army of Faith detachment does deserve special mention when it comes to MD though, because it's an MD Machine. And I think when the Eldar get their dex, you'll see something similar- there will be one detachment that leans HARD into fate dice, and exploits them for all they're worth. And their value in other detachments may end up somewhat more limited.
Same boards now is 3 times 0.5 (I would have to hold 6 for the same level of generation and that's not possible
I am however not running the same list as its so bad so really its now 1x 0.5 because it's now not worth the points and the one is really collateral for ablative wounds on the triumph.
The 6 on the triumph is great but I'm running multiple units that now burn md so increased demand decreased supply
Yes and army of faith has by far the worst win rate. MD are vastly overstated 6 are great on the charge but still fail a 3rd of the time from DS/reserve and 6 are great on Melta but the failure rate on melta is huge and the damage boost is still only 2.5 on Avg. (5's lower this to 50% failure and increase melta dam by 1.5) there are so few 1, 2, and 3 results I find their all blown on abilities/divine intervention. Which leaves 4's for a few invulnerable save that let's face it would have passed half the time if you hadn't used a miracle dice.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Miracle dice are not the problem for sisters just look at the three detatchments other than flames who arguably need miracle dice more all 50% or sub win rate. The sisters problem is the flames detatchment if you remove that sisters are underpowered
U02dah4 wrote: Miracle dice are not the problem for sisters just look at the three detatchments other than flames who arguably need miracle dice more all 50% or sub win rate. The sisters problem is the flames detatchment if you remove that sisters are underpowered
Do you have a source for that?
Not because I'm trying to be contrary, just because I'd like to read it.
I think the Army of Faith detachment with the right mix of Jump and Foot troops is just wicked. I haven't played yet, but 4 or 5 out six strats a) apply to more than one unit, provided that one is a Jump unit and it is close to the other unit and b) confer additional MD if the strat achieves its desired effect. I think all 4 enhancements are MD-centric as well- three give you more MD and another increases the value of an MD. The detachment rule lets each unit use two AoF per phase, and because of the strats and enhancements, you'll actually have enough MD for that to be useful.
U02dah4 wrote: Miracle dice are not the problem for sisters just look at the three detatchments other than flames who arguably need miracle dice more all 50% or sub win rate. The sisters problem is the flames detatchment if you remove that sisters are underpowered
Underpowered? Without the Bringer of Flames detachment, AS is at 50%. Drop Army of Faith and the win rate increases to 52%. Now Bringer of Flames are the hands down choice of players (78% of games in the Stats), but only Army of Faith is performing below 50%.
I guess I just naturally like underdogs- Army of Faith is possibly my favourite, with the Penitent Legion a close second.
Since 3rd, I've always organized my army in two halves- a Holy Choir, that includes only the sanctified and devout, and a Penitent Legion that includes only the wayward. The idea was that the two were kept organizationally separate to avoid further spiritual contamination of the devout... Though in times of great peril, the two forces would fight side by side.
Now 10th doesn't allow multi-detachment armies the way 8th and 9th did, so in a combined battle, I don't get the effect I'm looking for- either the Penitent would have to behave like the Faithful, or the Faithful have to behave like the Penitent. That, or the two become something else when combined.
I think it's another shortcoming of the edition, but people who like balanced, stand-alone, competitive pick-up games would see it as too open to exploits, and in a competitive environment they probably have a point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/09/06 12:50:58
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