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vict0988 wrote: I like universal abilities, except for the fact that the ones a codex uses aren't in the codex.
...when did you get a sneak peek at a 10th ed Codex, out of interest?
to be fair codices have never give a USR list so it's proably a safe bet we won't see that change , even though I'd LOOOVE a referance page ion a codex that lists then, save on book flipping
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
chaos0xomega wrote: Your first 3 dislikes are essentially the same complaint, and also a pretty weak one. You still have plenty of "agency", you still have the option to choose your units and upgrades, including to choose to not take upgrades if you don't want to or to take units of arbitrary size. If you feel otherwise irs because you have chosen to surrender your agency to min/maxing and optimization of the points system, and that's really on you.
And you are actively punished in the rules for doing so.
He did not make a weak argument. Your attempts to explain away the total and utter failings of 10th's points/army construction rules are weak.
vict0988 wrote: I like universal abilities, except for the fact that the ones a codex uses aren't in the codex.
...when did you get a sneak peek at a 10th ed Codex, out of interest?
to be fair codices have never give a USR list so it's proably a safe bet we won't see that change , even though I'd LOOOVE a referance page ion a codex that lists then, save on book flipping
GK digital codex for 7th had them. It's not that hard.
- not being able to add singular models to units. Finding a way of filling out the last 20 or so points is a bit frustrating.
- being limited to the box loadout has made some units less than ideal.
- combi weapons.
- certain factions getting waaaay more love than others at the index level *coughaeldaricough*. I imagine the codes/first wave of points adjustments will alleviate this, but still.
Otherwise I'm overall happy with how 10th is looking from a black and white rules perspective. There's some stuff that initially I wasn't too keen on, but it's grown on me as with every new edition does.
Like: I can play massively tricked out units of crisis suits.
The Observer/Guided rule is a good implementation of the combined arms fluff and co-ordinated doctrine of the Tau.
Dislike: I'd have to be a moron to not play massively tricked out units of crisis suits if I am going to take any Crisis.
Whoever wrote the Observer/Guided rule text should be fired. It is a garbled mess in which they switch which unit they are referring to to then switch back later in the same sentence. It turns what is a very basic interaction into a quagmire to read and understand exactly what is happening on your first reading.
Spoiler:
If your Army Faction is T’au Empire, then in your Shooting phase units from your army can work in pairs to help each other target specific enemy units. When they do this, one unit is the Observer unit and the other is their Guided unit. The enemy they are targeting is called their Spotted unit.
Each time you select this unit to shoot, if it is not an Observer unit, it can use this ability. If it does, select one other friendly unit with this ability that is also eligible to shoot (excluding Fortification, Battleshocked and Observer units). Until the end of the phase, this unit is considered a Guided unit, and that friendly unit is considered an Observer unit. Then select one enemy unit that is visible to both your units to be their Spotted unit.
Until the end of the phase: ■ Each time a model in a Guided unit makes an attack that targets their Spotted unit, improve the Ballistic Skill characteristic of the attack by 1 and, if their Observer unit has the Markerlight keyword, the attack has the [IGNORES COVER] ability. ■ Each time a model in a Guided unit makes an attack that does not target their Spotted unit, worsen the Ballistic Skill characteristic of the attack by 1.
Or, as it could have been written:
When you select a unit to shoot, if that unit was not selected as an Observer previously this phase, you may select another unit to act as an Observer provided the unit selected to be an Observer is eligible to shoot, is not a Fortification, battleshocked, and it was not selected as an Observer previously in this phase. Select one enemy unit that is visible to both the firing unit and the Observer. That enemy unit is Spotted. While resolving ranged attacks against the Spotted unit, the firing unit gains blah blah blah.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/06/19 10:14:26
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
vict0988 wrote: I like universal abilities, except for the fact that the ones a codex uses aren't in the codex.
...when did you get a sneak peek at a 10th ed Codex, out of interest?
to be fair codices have never give a USR list so it's proably a safe bet we won't see that change , even though I'd LOOOVE a referance page ion a codex that lists then, save on book flipping
The point being that seems a bit harsh to list something about a Codex as a dislike when we have no proof regarding whether a Codex will include a reference appendix within it.
Equally, this is a point that could've been resolved with reference sheets in Leviathan & starters.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
chaos0xomega wrote: Your first 3 dislikes are essentially the same complaint, and also a pretty weak one. You still have plenty of "agency", you still have the option to choose your units and upgrades, including to choose to not take upgrades if you don't want to or to take units of arbitrary size. If you feel otherwise irs because you have chosen to surrender your agency to min/maxing and optimization of the points system, and that's really on you.
And you are actively punished in the rules for doing so.
He did not make a weak argument. Your attempts to explain away the total and utter failings of 10th's points/army construction rules are weak.
Yes thank you.
Most of the responses in this thread, positive and negative are excellent barring that one personal attack.
Anyway if I didn't love this game I would just walk out. Instead I think it is constructive to compile feedback for GW to read. They could tweak this thing in the right ways and make it a decent edition after all. Right now it is too restrictive and still at least equally imbalanced compared to 9th so whats the point of moving forward? I don't see any reason personally except to follow the herd mentality.
Also concerning to me is the obviously vastly under costed units many faction have received. I am assuming to spark some interest and give a template army to play. However we've been there before. These will get nerfed/recosted and then many of those indexes are gutted. Better to speak up now show support for what is liked and point out what is not.
I dislike the lack of points costs for options. I dislike the removal of options, including the removal of Warlord Traits and Relics. I mildly dislike how restrictive the rules are with which characters can join which units.
I like the 0 point swaps, but they need to do better/more to balance the options - because that feeds variety. I also dislike the removal of Warlord Traits and Relics - because again it feeds variety and customization.
I don't dislike it yet, but I think the huge numbers of combos in the game is going to make it very imbalanced, having an immortal unit of Necron Warriors has been fun the first couple of times, the third or tenth time?
I like the huge number of combos, and that they're usually 2-3 unit combos so you're going to have several in your army if you're paying attention. And I'm going to be even more in favor if they can keep all these combos juggling in the air so you actually can mix and match them without any combination of combinations ending up "auto-take".
Likes:
- the "buy in cost" being zero if you have models from a previous edition, in effect apart from the time to download and maybe print a few record sheets just pick up and play
- strategems being cut back, hated how using a bit of equipment or training a unit had got nerfed - they made sense for tactical ideas to show where a commanders focus was, but not "sorry lads we can't fire the guns, that lot over their did it first" stuff
Dislikes:
- lack of "printer friendly" version of the PDFs
I'm giving the download indexes being a bit bland a pass as they appear to be "gets you started" stuff so its fine
holding fire on point costs and fixed unit sizes to see if either change when the codexes come out
2023/06/19 15:58:41
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
Very happy with:
*Core rules
*No more maintaining additional families of books for a small handful of models
Pretty happy with:
*Combat patrol looks good for quick games, low buy in cost for new armies
*New models looking great
Not particularly happy with:
*Consolidating things that had no business being consolidated (van vets entire arsenal, combi weapons probably the worst offenders)
*The usual amount of proofreading and QC
Very unhappy with:
*Doubling down on NMNR
*Taking the laziest route possible to simplified/standardised points
IMO the good outweighs the bad by a significant margin, but..
Spoiler:
There should be no such thing as NMNR, at no point in history have as many 40k models been in production as they have right now. GW could easily give minimal advice on how best to kitbash units, and boom - they sell kits and we have stuff we want.
If you want simple points, no problem. Just do min squad is X, +Y per additional model, +Z for upgrades notable enough to deserve premium points.
2023/06/19 16:02:23
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
If you want simple points, no problem. Just do min squad is X, +Y per additional model, +Z for upgrades notable enough to deserve premium points.
You literally just described how points have previously worked. Your simple points is just how points worked for pretty much the entire lifetime of this game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/19 16:03:06
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2023/06/19 16:09:44
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
If you want simple points, no problem. Just do min squad is X, +Y per additional model, +Z for upgrades notable enough to deserve premium points.
You literally just described how points have previously worked. Your simple points is just how points worked for pretty much the entire lifetime of this game.
And?
People who don't have precisely the approved number of models - sucks to be you.
People who didn't hunt high and low for thunder hammers and lascannons on every model who could pack one - sucks to be you.
People who didn't build their £100+ per model knights packing all the extra missile launchers on - just tell them to git gud.
2023/06/19 16:36:18
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
ArcaneHorror wrote: Oh ok, nvm. That makes sense and make things much better and more fun for listbuilding.
Yeah but it might be better if, like other units, you can take a max of 3 epic heroes. The ability to have more of them than any one type of generic character could be a bit silly.
Unhappy:
-From a getting new players in / enticing old players back perspective there is too much going on between cause and effect IMHO.
Seems like every roll is made twice, modified, subject to several layers of conditional bonuses, triggers, and extra dice rolling all the way down to unique and varied effects and profiles on every single unit...
2023/06/19 17:12:30
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
If you want simple points, no problem. Just do min squad is X, +Y per additional model, +Z for upgrades notable enough to deserve premium points.
You literally just described how points have previously worked. Your simple points is just how points worked for pretty much the entire lifetime of this game.
And?
People who don't have precisely the approved number of models - sucks to be you. People who didn't hunt high and low for thunder hammers and lascannons on every model who could pack one - sucks to be you. People who didn't build their £100+ per model knights packing all the extra missile launchers on - just tell them to git gud.
Hey, I think these rules are trash, too. I am just pointing out that your "simple" points, presented as a middle ground between this current abdication of game design and the previous system, are literally just the points system that already existed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/19 17:16:12
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
LIKE
- Core rules seem simple enough
- Stat *cards*
- Free access to rules, cards and point costs
- AP and killiness has been toned down
- Strategies have been reigned in
- Everything released all at once
DISLIKE
- Point system is a joke
- Weapon USRs aren't printed out on the bottom/back of the cards
- Too many special abilities on various units
- Army building/outfitting is inconsistent way too complicated
- Once again, the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, just to make things "different"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/19 18:33:57
It never ends well
2023/06/19 18:48:07
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
ArcaneHorror wrote: Oh ok, nvm. That makes sense and make things much better and more fun for listbuilding.
Yeah but it might be better if, like other units, you can take a max of 3 epic heroes. The ability to have more of them than any one type of generic character could be a bit silly.
Like
-I like most core rules and fixes to terrain etc
-the scenarios and missions are refreshing
Dislike
-points costs
-LoS less fire
-Devastating wounds and Critical wounds etc interactions
-inability to kill anything in the game, even stuff like IG infantry.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Overall this edition is full of changes I'm really happy with. I like the focus on toys over boys. I like giving different weapons different roles instead of trying to balance them out with points. I like the focused stratagems and wide array of list building options.
I think there's notable problems with the implementation. Some options just aren't compelling and players are still going to dominate by spamming whatever obviously underpriced option they can, but overall I like the direction and would have a lot of faith in it if I thought future releases would improve upon it rather than bloat it... but GW is almost certainly going to GW.
2023/06/19 19:53:00
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
ArcaneHorror wrote: Oh ok, nvm. That makes sense and make things much better and more fun for listbuilding.
Yeah but it might be better if, like other units, you can take a max of 3 epic heroes. The ability to have more of them than any one type of generic character could be a bit silly.
This is the most egregious problem I've come across yet with 10th. It's so unbelievably idiotic it has to be a joke.
At this point just turn the game into a CCG already and quit with the pretense the "game' is about the miniatures.
Removal of psychic phase when more interaction was needed.
Psychic powers just becoming weapons pretty much, very boring to me.
loss of varied weapons for many units in a frankly nonsensical manner.
lack of universal special rules due to multiple similar rules with slight variations being on data sheets, either have USR's and use them or why bother.
- most of the core rules
- attaching heroes to units
- Agents of the Imperium
- some factions having very interesting and unique abilities that mechanically alter their game
Dislike:
- not being able to attach heroes to any unit within their category
- loss of granularity in list building
- glaring issues in the indices
The concept of streamlining psychic powers and removing the need for a "psychic phase".
The concept of returning to a stable base of Universal Special Rules.
The concept of removing bloat/the cognitive load of 9th Edition.
The concept of reducing the number of stratagems and giving each army a small amount relevant to the combat style of the detachment.
The concept of ditching Power Level in favour of a singular points system that everyone uses.
The concept of returning twin-linked to the game, rather than just doubling shots on everything.
The Screamer Killer entry. In toto.
Reductions on AP across the board.
Paying points for Warlord Traits/Relics.
Getting rid of the painful terrain rules from 9th.
Dislikes:
The execution of joining characters to units (heavily limiting who they can join, making it so that solo-characters are a liability and not a choice, giving solo characters no real purpose as they can be shot off the table instantly).
The execution of detachments defining an army (so far the ones we've seen really don't*, and the army/detachment rules are in a number of cases basically backwards when it comes to what's central to a faction eg. Oaths of Moment vs Combat Doctrines).
The execution of streamlining psychic powers (now either just glorified weird guns that have a rule that doesn't do anything ("Psychic"), or something that only works when leading a squad).
The execution of returning to a stable base of Universal Special Rules (sure, there are USRs, but then every fething unit has its own snowflake rule, many of which are repeated and could be USRs unto themselves).
The execution of removing bloat/the cognitive load of 9th Edition (overly zealous consolidation of things that did not need it, such as combi-weapons and relics, and the sheer inconsistency of it all - it's fine for Termagants to have Fleshborers, Devourers and Spinefists... but Emperor-forbid we show there's a difference between a Bonesword and a pair of Rending Claws!).
The execution of reducing the number of stratagems and giving each army a small amount relevant to the combat doctrines of the detachment (CP is such a limited resource that I fear most strats will be ignored in favour of the ones that are always useful, like Command Re-Rolls).
The execution of ditching Power Level in favour of a singular points system that everyone uses (they haven't - the current "points" are just Power Level 2.0, are super lazy, inherently imbalanced, and abso-fething-lutely tedious to use**).
The execution of returning twin-linked to the game, rather than just doubling shots on everything (I think it's too far in the other direction. Re-roll To Wound is nice, but the drastic loss of shots for many weapons is too much. I much prefer the old system that we came with back at the start of 4th Edition: re-roll to hit, but on a natural 6 To Hit, you get two hits - so basically Sustained Hits in the current rules, but with a re-roll To hit).
The Carnifex entry. In toto.
Leaving weapons behind in the great reshuffle (Melta-weapons especially, who have been the premiere short-ranged anti-tank gun of the game since the days of Rogue Trader... and now languish behind everything else. Fine if your faction has a wealth of other anti-tank options. Not so hot if you don't. Yes I'm talking about Sisters).
Not paying points for any other type of upgrade. Upgrades. Should. Not. Be. Free.
Introducing a newer type of painful cover rules in 10th. The cover and LOS rules in generally, really. Too simplistic, too broad. And they haven't shook the problems from 8th/9th (there needs to be a limit on what counts on being seen - tips of guns, back banners, tips of claws, antenne - none of these should make a target valid). Plus why doesn't terrain slow you down at all? And why are forests infinitely high? Why does plunging fire specify the 'ground', rather than a more logical distance between shooter and target?
Unknowns:
Missions seem pretty cool, but I'll have to wait until I play a few.
I like the sound of Battleshock, but I'll have to see it in practice.
I am wary about the 3 of anything as it seems less like a real attempt at giving structural freedom and more like a "Rules are hard!" abdication of any attempt at balance.
I like the rules of the melee section. That seems like a good revision of the previous two editions. Again, have to see it in practice to know.
*I know they're the baseline, but I'm referring mainly to Wolves/Templars/Dark Angels here.
**Making lists in 10th is a chore. Every day since the points have come out, before going to bed, I have put together a theoretical list or two (Marines and Tyranids). Every single time it ends with me going "Ok, what costs exactly X points as that's all I have left!" and going over the unhelpful alphabetical list hoping to find something that costs what I have left. Because all variation has been removed. I can't downgrade from a Lascannon to a Missile Launcher to get back 5 points that will let me bring something else. I can reduce a pair of Jump Pack Assault Squads to 8-men each, freeing up enough points for a transport or something somewhere else. It's completely unbalanced, it's absurd, it's stupid, it's inflexible and it is just tedious to use. Making lists was something I did for fun, even if I never intended to use them. Now it's just an exercise in frustration.
vict0988 wrote: Units with FLY not being able to hop over terrain seems weird, but I don't hate it, infantry still being able to move through walls makes it even more strange.
Flying units are often better going around terrain, which I think defeats the purpose of being able to fly.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2023/06/20 04:37:29
ArcaneHorror wrote: Oh ok, nvm. That makes sense and make things much better and more fun for listbuilding.
Yeah but it might be better if, like other units, you can take a max of 3 epic heroes. The ability to have more of them than any one type of generic character could be a bit silly.
This is the most egregious problem I've come across yet with 10th. It's so unbelievably idiotic it has to be a joke.
At this point just turn the game into a CCG already and quit with the pretense the "game' is about the miniatures.
So you think...being able to USE the miniatures, means the game isn't about the miniatures anymore. That it would be MORE about the miniatures...if you left that at home. Where they're NOT in the game....
You didn't happen to grow up near a toxic waste dump, did you?
2023/06/20 05:12:26
Subject: Re:What aspects of 10th do you like/dislike
ArcaneHorror wrote: Oh ok, nvm. That makes sense and make things much better and more fun for listbuilding.
Yeah but it might be better if, like other units, you can take a max of 3 epic heroes. The ability to have more of them than any one type of generic character could be a bit silly.
This is the most egregious problem I've come across yet with 10th. It's so unbelievably idiotic it has to be a joke.
At this point just turn the game into a CCG already and quit with the pretense the "game' is about the miniatures.
So you think...being able to USE the miniatures, means the game isn't about the miniatures anymore. That it would be MORE about the miniatures...if you left that at home. Where they're NOT in the game....
You didn't happen to grow up near a toxic waste dump, did you?
did you?
I believe you have misunderstood...
Currently we have warGAME
I'd like it if it was WARGAME....see the difference.
If the game is the whole point then just have cardboard chits/tokens/cards. That way, when the fun-stapo come in and say "no fun for you", it's not really a big deal.
Or are you totally fine with the arbitrary and moronic restrictions?
Are you in the "Let's take 10 smash captains and feth the lore...." camp?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/20 05:14:06
