Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

To me the ultimate play test for any game is my kids (pre middle school). My experience has always been that if a kid likes a game that is designed for teenagers and adults, that means the game is FUN.

My kids have always liked the Warhammer setting but they always thought 9th was BORING.

Just played 10th and they loved it, and they're asking me to play it again.

I think it had to do with the strategums and how we would alternate using them to "power up" units every turn. That and things intuitively made more sense. I.E. Like throwing a grenade actually kills a bunch of people instead of doing nothing. The game had more of a cinematic quality also. I.E. Using epic challenge for an epic 1 on 1 showdown between two ork warbosses.

Funny, the very thing that I thought made 9th so tedious ended up being complete salvation for 10th.

10th will be fun if people enjoy it. Everyone is different.

I’m glad your kids are having a good time!
But I don’t think I will, so I won’t be playing. Best of luck with the munchkins!

Glad your kids are having fun! Hopefully I'll like it too once I actually give it a shot.

Right now I'm salty about a bunch of on-paper stuff, so hopefully I'll like it more in action. The reduction in stratagems does seem like it will make the mid-game bookkeeping a bit less tedious. Maybe I'll be able to focus on where I want my units to to end up instead of trying to remember which stratagems and other buffs I need to wombo combo to get the best lethality boost.

Kids think flossing is fun though...

 Dekskull wrote:
To me the ultimate play test for any game is my kids (pre middle school). My experience has always been that if a kid likes a game that is designed for teenagers and adults, that means the game is FUN.

My kids have always liked the Warhammer setting but they always thought 9th was BORING.

Just played 10th and they loved it, and they're asking me to play it again.

I think it had to do with the strategums and how we would alternate using them to "power up" units every turn. That and things intuitively made more sense. I.E. Like throwing a grenade actually kills a bunch of people instead of doing nothing. The game had more of a cinematic quality also. I.E. Using epic challenge for an epic 1 on 1 showdown between two ork warbosses.

Funny, the very thing that I thought made 9th so tedious ended up being complete salvation for 10th.

Carefull. Positivity over 10e is bad around here

Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

except you didn't and are trying to be cute. I think it's entirely possiable kids enjoy 10th edition. the big issues with the game that we spot (points etc) aren't going to be issues for the kids as presumably dad picked their army and had the presence of mind to avoid "lopsided mispointed units" the vastly reduced stratigium count means kids can keep track of them easier etc. so yes I can totally see kids enjoying the game more.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dekskull wrote:
To me the ultimate play test for any game is my kids (pre middle school). My experience has always been that if a kid likes a game that is designed for teenagers and adults, that means the game is FUN.

My kids have always liked the Warhammer setting but they always thought 9th was BORING.

Just played 10th and they loved it, and they're asking me to play it again.

I think it had to do with the strategums and how we would alternate using them to "power up" units every turn. That and things intuitively made more sense. I.E. Like throwing a grenade actually kills a bunch of people instead of doing nothing. The game had more of a cinematic quality also. I.E. Using epic challenge for an epic 1 on 1 showdown between two ork warbosses.

Funny, the very thing that I thought made 9th so tedious ended up being complete salvation for 10th.

Carefull. Positivity over 10e is bad around here

Funny that you'd pop up in this thread, given how often "a kid could understand it" is your metric for things on this forum

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

except you didn't and are trying to be cute. I think it's entirely possiable kids enjoy 10th edition. the big issues with the game that we spot (points etc) aren't going to be issues for the kids as presumably dad picked their army and had the presence of mind to avoid "lopsided mispointed units" the vastly reduced stratigium count means kids can keep track of them easier etc. so yes I can totally see kids enjoying the game more.

Actually, I did. They prefer Chaos (again, my influence), and they don't like it. I'm not trying to be "cute". Just telling the truth, Brian. They don't like it. Guess you're going to attack my kids next? (Not a good idea, just saying).

 Altruizine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dekskull wrote:
To me the ultimate play test for any game is my kids (pre middle school). My experience has always been that if a kid likes a game that is designed for teenagers and adults, that means the game is FUN.

My kids have always liked the Warhammer setting but they always thought 9th was BORING.

Just played 10th and they loved it, and they're asking me to play it again.

I think it had to do with the strategums and how we would alternate using them to "power up" units every turn. That and things intuitively made more sense. I.E. Like throwing a grenade actually kills a bunch of people instead of doing nothing. The game had more of a cinematic quality also. I.E. Using epic challenge for an epic 1 on 1 showdown between two ork warbosses.

Funny, the very thing that I thought made 9th so tedious ended up being complete salvation for 10th.

Carefull. Positivity over 10e is bad around here

Funny that you'd pop up in this thread, given how often "a kid could understand it" is your metric for things on this forum

Spoiler:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2640/788603.page#10819557
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/808533.page#11494454
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450/808533.page#11491832
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1260/805449.page#11398975
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/805744.page#11390417
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360/805044.page#11375303
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/801068.page#11227656
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/900/794217.page#11006466
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809141.page#11501195
and so on....

Well if kid can understand them they can. I have 5&8 year old nieces I check do they understand them or not.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

except you didn't and are trying to be cute. I think it's entirely possiable kids enjoy 10th edition. the big issues with the game that we spot (points etc) aren't going to be issues for the kids as presumably dad picked their army and had the presence of mind to avoid "lopsided mispointed units" the vastly reduced stratigium count means kids can keep track of them easier etc. so yes I can totally see kids enjoying the game more.

Actually, I did. They prefer Chaos (again, my influence), and they don't like it. I'm not trying to be "cute". Just telling the truth, Brian. They don't like it. Guess you're going to attack my kids next? (Not a good idea, just saying).

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was broken compared to everything else around it and was the Chaos version of Iron Hands from 8th edition. You and your kids just want to be the ones on top of the hill again.

That's why he played NL since ever Canadian`?

don't be a fence post.

I don't have any kids to ask but I did play my first game with the lychguard blocks that I have tried for my first list in every edition since I started playing in 7th, and for the first time they were as unkillable as I imagined in my head, so that was fun.

it will, like all games, likely be enjoyable if you enjoy being with the people you play against and neither player is actively trying to break a game that has become fragile over the years

approach it with the mindset of not "if I do this will my opponent have no counter?" but more "if I do this will my opponent find it entertaining and engaging", obviously in both cases why I laugh at their sorrows as it is a wargame, and likely it will be fun

embrace the insanity instead of trying to exploit the terrible writing and apparent lack of testing

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

except you didn't and are trying to be cute. I think it's entirely possiable kids enjoy 10th edition. the big issues with the game that we spot (points etc) aren't going to be issues for the kids as presumably dad picked their army and had the presence of mind to avoid "lopsided mispointed units" the vastly reduced stratigium count means kids can keep track of them easier etc. so yes I can totally see kids enjoying the game more.

Actually, I did. They prefer Chaos (again, my influence), and they don't like it. I'm not trying to be "cute". Just telling the truth, Brian. They don't like it. Guess you're going to attack my kids next? (Not a good idea, just saying).

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was broken compared to everything else around it and was the Chaos version of Iron Hands from 8th edition. You and your kids just want to be the ones on top of the hill again.

I don't personally know him, but given that the new great faction wide ability of CSM is sacrificing themselves to be a bit deadlier I can easily see why kids don't like it. They tend to really not enjoy killing their own models.

 Dolnikan wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

except you didn't and are trying to be cute. I think it's entirely possiable kids enjoy 10th edition. the big issues with the game that we spot (points etc) aren't going to be issues for the kids as presumably dad picked their army and had the presence of mind to avoid "lopsided mispointed units" the vastly reduced stratigium count means kids can keep track of them easier etc. so yes I can totally see kids enjoying the game more.

Actually, I did. They prefer Chaos (again, my influence), and they don't like it. I'm not trying to be "cute". Just telling the truth, Brian. They don't like it. Guess you're going to attack my kids next? (Not a good idea, just saying).

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was broken compared to everything else around it and was the Chaos version of Iron Hands from 8th edition. You and your kids just want to be the ones on top of the hill again.

I don't personally know him, but given that the new great faction wide ability of CSM is sacrificing themselves to be a bit deadlier I can easily see why kids don't like it. They tend to really not enjoy killing their own models.

as someone who plays Chaos on occasion (or tries to if the army is any good which hasn't been a case for awhile) I think the chaos ability is reasonably fluffy, taking a little bit of risk of losing a guy to increase your lethality.. CSM players are certainly used to use, with with Plasma guns and deamon weapons. I think part of the problem is sustained hits 1 or lethal hits doesn't feel ESPECIALLY powerful. for the risk you take. I'd be intreasted in seeing someone doing the math for dark pacts to see if the average damage increase is worth more then the average damage taken

I enjoyed my first couple of 10th edition games with a few caveats.

-I wrote down stats and rules for units. I made a few omissions and had to go through the index on my tablet. Too much time wasted. Definitely fixed that issue for the next games.

- Desolation Marines mechanics. I ran a squad of 10 and the dice rolling for this unit can become tedious.

- I am on the fence regarding random secondaries. I have not wnjoyed this mechanic since GW introduced it ( 6th or 7th?)

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Showed the 10th edition rules for CSM to my girls (8, going on 9). They said "no fun". They prefer the rules in my Liber Hereticus and my old 3.5 codex. They're my kids. Probably picked dad's preferences. Just saying..

except you didn't and are trying to be cute. I think it's entirely possiable kids enjoy 10th edition. the big issues with the game that we spot (points etc) aren't going to be issues for the kids as presumably dad picked their army and had the presence of mind to avoid "lopsided mispointed units" the vastly reduced stratigium count means kids can keep track of them easier etc. so yes I can totally see kids enjoying the game more.

Actually, I did. They prefer Chaos (again, my influence), and they don't like it. I'm not trying to be "cute". Just telling the truth, Brian. They don't like it. Guess you're going to attack my kids next? (Not a good idea, just saying).

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was broken compared to everything else around it and was the Chaos version of Iron Hands from 8th edition. You and your kids just want to be the ones on top of the hill again.

Nah, it was broken compared to other 3rd edition codexes, but not other 4th edition codexes, which it was, inherently.

But, Canadian are you still someone that doesn't play? Not 40k, or 30k, or OPR, or anything, but just studies the 40k tournament scene in the same way that someone studies the games of NCAA basketball, or NHL, or the NFL? And do you still make posts in the effort to cause "nerd rage" (you're words)?

Because I don't feel like giving you the satisfaction, if these things remain true. As another has already pointed out, I've always played Night Lords, which were never one of the "power" options in the 3.5 era, and my kids weren't even alive back then, and are entirely enamored with the myriad of options available to CSM from that book, and the current Liber Hereticus.

Please, get back to me between your breaks or customers. Is Juneteenth a holiday in Canada?

Using children as an indicator for what constitutes fun for adults is a strange approach to say the least. They generally can't deal with the same amount of complexity and have a shorter attention span than adults.

Fun tends to mean different things to children and adults. Is UNO fun? Of course, but adults likely won't dedicate large parts of their spare time to it, while children might. Similarly, adults will spend hours upon hours meticulously building, painting and arranging a WW2 diorama, while children will likely find that rather boring.

I imagine it will be fun for most people.

Most people don't play "competitively" i.e. tournaments/events etc.

Most people won't get completely boned by the changes and will be able to adapt by slotting in/out replacements.

Eventually they'll release a couple updates to fix the most egregious things they've done.

I thought it would take the entire edition, but now that they've released most of the changes, they changed much less than was implied so it won't - or shouldn't - take too long to bounce back into what passes for as balanced as they get.

10th edition is really fun...so long as you can ignore the issues. I look forward to if/when they can figure the issues out, but not the process to get there.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
10th edition is really fun...so long as you can ignore the issues. I look forward to if/when they can figure the issues out, but not the process to get there.

This isn't meant too harshly or anything, just what edition wasn't fun if you ignore the bad things? It might be a good edition, but that doesn't really say anything about it.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
10th edition is really fun...so long as you can ignore the issues. I look forward to if/when they can figure the issues out, but not the process to get there.

This isn't meant too harshly or anything, just what edition wasn't fun if you ignore the bad things? It might be a good edition, but that doesn't really say anything about it.

A fair point.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
10th will be fun if people enjoy it. Everyone is different.

Tautology!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
10th edition is really fun...so long as you can ignore the issues. I look forward to if/when they can figure the issues out, but not the process to get there.

This isn't meant too harshly or anything, just what edition wasn't fun if you ignore the bad things? It might be a good edition, but that doesn't really say anything about it.

A fair point.

I feel like factional balance is so bad currently that the different army tiers shouldn't even be at the same events. Split them up like Smogon(pokemon) formats. Every 40k tournament that has the capacity to do so should be something like:

Ubers tournament: Anything goes. This is the only tier that allows Eldar or Marines with more than 5 Deslators.

Overused: This is where all the normal armies like Nids, Chaos, Knights, GK, etc duke it out. No Eldar, Marine lists aren't allowed to have more than 5 Desolators.

Rarely Used: This is where Admech, Deathguard, Sisters, and I guess Votann? can all hang out and be bros.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
it will, like all games, likely be enjoyable if you enjoy being with the people you play against and neither player is actively trying to break a game that has become fragile over the years

approach it with the mindset of not "if I do this will my opponent have no counter?" but more "if I do this will my opponent find it entertaining and engaging", obviously in both cases why I laugh at their sorrows as it is a wargame, and likely it will be fun

embrace the insanity instead of trying to exploit the terrible writing and apparent lack of testing

My problem is that 99.9% of games I play are at tournaments. I pretty much don't play beer and pretzels wargames...ever. So this type of advice doesn't really help me much.

 BertBert wrote:
Using children as an indicator for what constitutes fun for adults is a strange approach to say the least. They generally can't deal with the same amount of complexity and have a shorter attention span than adults.

Fun tends to mean different things to children and adults. Is UNO fun? Of course, but adults likely won't dedicate large parts of their spare time to it, while children might. Similarly, adults will spend hours upon hours meticulously building, painting and arranging a WW2 diorama, while children will likely find that rather boring.

I actually just spent almost a week playing UNO with friends

Honestly, I don't think there's anything different in this way than what there was before. Some stuff is clearly overcosted and worthless. Some stuff is wildly undercosted and will dominate the meta. Same as always, if anything its just easier to see now.

 LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, I don't think there's anything different in this way than what there was before. Some stuff is clearly overcosted and worthless. Some stuff is wildly undercosted and will dominate the meta. Same as always, if anything its just easier to see now.

There's so much context missing in this comment.

It's basically the 40k equivalent of 'Why do emissions standards even matter? There's still gonna be pollution so who cares?'

 Dekskull wrote:
To me the ultimate play test for any game is my kids (pre middle school). My experience has always been that if a kid likes a game that is designed for teenagers and adults, that means the game is FUN.

Make them play 10 games vs eldar, or 10 games with DG or ad mecha vs a mid tier or good army. It is not very fun. Now people can make anything fun for themselfs, but I think saying that just your kids like it, the edition is going to be fun, is a bit of a generalisation. For example I found out after a few games, that my dudes, can't kill anything. They can't kill stuff at range, they can't kill stuff in melee especialy vs tanks or other melee armies. On top of that my army lost psychic powers, faction specific weapons, someone at the DT thought it would be fun to make our thunder hammeres str 6 etc. It is not very fun, but I have seen my army be a lot less fun in prior editions. In 8th, my dudes were unplayable, in that it was not worth to go to the store and try to play a game of w40k. So I guess it is an improvment. But given the option of playing LL in AoS or GK in 10th, I don't think I would struggle to pick which of the two is fun and which isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, I don't think there's anything different in this way than what there was before. Some stuff is clearly overcosted and worthless. Some stuff is wildly undercosted and will dominate the meta. Same as always, if anything its just easier to see now.

Yes and it is somehow always eldar that are undercosted and dominate the meta. mind blowing how every edition that can happen. Even three times in 10 editions it would require action from the designers, but 9 out 10 editions. That is not a mistake, that is patern of design choices.

ERJAK wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, I don't think there's anything different in this way than what there was before. Some stuff is clearly overcosted and worthless. Some stuff is wildly undercosted and will dominate the meta. Same as always, if anything its just easier to see now.

There's so much context missing in this comment.

It's basically the 40k equivalent of 'Why do emissions standards even matter? There's still gonna be pollution so who cares?'

I see it much as going from a world lacking emissions standards to one that... still lacks emissions standards. Like these complaints have existed for the last 30+ years. I'm not going to pretend that this time its any worse or any better than the last 6-7 times.