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This seemed like a fun exercise. Call out someone else's or ever your own units here. I'll start with mine..

Drukhari

Ravager 3 dark lances - 95 pts?!
Lets see deep strike, inherent reroll 1s, access to full reroll hits, improved weapon profile, t9. This unit has lived in the 130-145s range for multiple editions. Does anyone really believe 95 pts is a proper valuation now?

5 scourges 4 dark lances, blast pistol - 120 pts.
This one is a little harder to call out but I'm saying 120 is also far too cheap considering the concentration of high quality weaponry, heavy weapon rule plus DSSJ (deep strike shoot jump) with reroll access.

Start with that.

Sisters:

Over:
Battle Sisters. 110pts for a multimelta and a miracle dice. Desolation Squads are 120.

Dominions. 130pts for one more melta shot than BSS get, Rapid fire 2 bolters, and scout. Desolation squads are 120.

Paragon Warsuits, 240pts despite being worse than cheaper dreadnoughts.

Retributors. 130pts. Devastator marines are 120.

Repentia: 150pts. Desolation Squads are 120.

Sacresants: 130pts. Melee of a wet noodle. 3+SV, no shooting.

Under:

Desolation Squads.

Undercosted: Eldar as a whole. Fireprisms & Knights seem to be among the worst.

Proteus kill teams. The base unit is 5 vets, and the only distinction between them and a veteran squad is that the vet squad can take a xenophase blade, and the proteus kill team cannot.

Vets? 100pts.
Proteus? 130pts.

They clearly just cut the full 10-man proteus kill team in half and called it a day, as if they remotely compensate.

Broadsides used to be 80ish I think, they're now 110 each. Even taking the cost of drones into account I think they may be a bit overpriced.

ERJAK wrote:

Under:

Desolation Squads.

I'd argue very loudly that desolation squads aren't a points problem.
They're a profile problem. A unit where every model has two multi-attack blast weapons is not something you can balance with points. (especially with rerolls and modifiers).

The solution to desolators will never be points. The best way to approach it is deleting the top gun (the castellan launcher or whatever its called) and giving the gun an alternate profile- it can either fire superfrag or superkrak. The end.
A unit full of slightly better missile launchers is good, but isn't constantly obliterating enemy units.

Voss wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Under:

Desolation Squads.

I'd argue very loudly that desolation squads aren't a points problem.
They're a profile problem. A unit where every model has two multi-attack blast weapons is not something you can balance with points. (especially with rerolls and modifiers).

The solution to desolators will never be points. The best way to approach it is deleting the top gun (the castellan launcher or whatever its called) and giving the gun an alternate profile- it can either fire superfrag or superkrak. The end.
A unit full of slightly better missile launchers is good, but isn't constantly obliterating enemy units.

This. Although I'd suggest removing blast from the Castellan and Vengor. Then drop Frag to D6 from D6+1 -- it's already S5. And then kill the stupid indirect and ignore everything about indirect rule.

 westiebestie wrote:
Undercosted: Eldar as a whole. Fireprisms & Knights seem to be among the worst.

Not really as a whole. We got the obvious offenders(especially Knights), but Aspects are pretty average. I mean, if the goal is to make Eldar unplayable, then yes, Eldar is undercosted as a whole.

For the Guard.

Overcosted: Tank Commanders.
240 points for a unit with BS 4+ and can only get orders from Leontus.
It gives 1 non-splashing order to most vehicles.

As 1 of only 2 tank order sources, it's so high that it makes me want to reconsider vehicles in Guard as a whole.

Undercosted: Manticores.
It now cost as much as a Earthshaker Carraige Battery and hits harder because of the changes to indirect and the sheer number of ways we can get around it.
3+ to hit might be the norm.
Tying it up in melee just means you hit on 4+, and hitting it with melta wounds it on a 5+.
AP-2 Flat 3 damage means you're wounding Terminators on a 2+, forcing them to their invuls if you get ignores cover/more ap (probably fairly simple to achieve), and it's save or die if they don't have storm shields.

It is likely the non-transport Baneblade are slightly overcoated.

The transports bring guns that are only slightly worse (and in some cases not at all), AND gain the ability to transport troops with high Firing Deck numbers, but are usually one Infantry Squad or more cheaper than their non-transport counterparts.

The sole exception is the Shadowsword, which seems priced to move.

Flayed Ones are overpriced in points now to match being overpriced in £££

Voss wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Under:

Desolation Squads.

I'd argue very loudly that desolation squads aren't a points problem.
They're a profile problem. A unit where every model has two multi-attack blast weapons is not something you can balance with points. (especially with rerolls and modifiers).

The solution to desolators will never be points. The best way to approach it is deleting the top gun (the castellan launcher or whatever its called) and giving the gun an alternate profile- it can either fire superfrag or superkrak. The end.
A unit full of slightly better missile launchers is good, but isn't constantly obliterating enemy units.

While I agree that's the most elegant solution (Also, don't give them ignore cover), you could also make them 300pts for 5. That, too solves the problem. It creates the problem of them being largely useless, but it's not like marine players don't have other options.

Cynista wrote:
Flayed Ones are overpriced in points now to match being overpriced in £££

Flayed Ones are one of the more interesting units with a lot going on, despite having no options, and arguably the kind of unit that works best with this points system.

They aren't necessarily good at their current price point (which is the same as immortals), but used correctly they do a shocking amount of damage- against a below half strength unit, every hit creates an extra hit, and they all have 4 attacks base.
Infiltrate and stealth help. Reroll wounds and a point of AP makes a difference as well.

But this point system works for them- they're a package deal so they can have their points adjusted by 5, 10 or 15 points for 5 without any issue.
After XXX reported games, adjusting the points to better match their worth should be straightforward.

Praetorians, on the other hand, seem mind-bogglingly over priced. They aren't even in the same ballpark as the rest of the army.

Mutalith Vortex Beast

Dear god

 Eldarsif wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
Undercosted: Eldar as a whole. Fireprisms & Knights seem to be among the worst.

Not really as a whole. We got the obvious offenders(especially Knights), but Aspects are pretty average. I mean, if the goal is to make Eldar unplayable, then yes, Eldar is undercosted as a whole.

Warp spiders are avarge for their point costs? In general the problem with eldar aspect stuff is not that they are over costed, for armies it would be considered properly costed. Only with by how aggresivly other eldar stuff is costed the eldar player can pay a tax to run two units of scorpions, even if they don't do much or there are more efficient options. The eldar army will not cave from it, because they are already playing with 200-300pts extra comparing to the regular aka good, armies from other factions. Vs bad stuff an eldar player can play with 1500pts and beat 2000pts of DG or ad mecha. And some stuff is impossible to attach a point cost to. What should be the point cost of being able to just generate MW or auto passing saves ? Especialy when it is layered on top of great speed, resiliance, high damage, ignoring of terrain and with a primary/secondary mission system that favours fast moving armie, that can clear objectives, with ability to ignore LoS in some manner. Eldar have an army rules adventage, then a core rules adventage, then point costs adventage. They are tier of tier of their own. There are other armies, my dudes for example have speed and have no dmg capability and are high cost, can have one of those. Sometimes two, but not all three.


Practicaly everything LoV is overcosted, especialy the characters, for what the units can do. Same with DG and Ad Mecha. For all three of those the costs vs efficiency is so bad, that all other armies X is overcosted just pales in comperation. It is like comparing having a splinter to a broken bone.

I think its hard to debate without getting a points bar.

I.E. I can see the argument for Retributors to be 110-115 rather than 130 - but in the context of Devastators being 120, Scourge being 120, Havocs being 135 etc it feels like 120ish points per 4 heavy weapons is about the bar with special rules changing the details. With some sort of factoring in for the unit/army special rules.

But looking at say Sacresancts, they are basically Incubi with -1 M and -1 AP but gain a 4++ - and only cost 75%~ as much. Which doesn't seem unreasonable. Drazhar arguably makes Incubi worth taking (+1 to wound significantly widens the window of targets where they'll do anything) - but this a 105 point model into say 85 - so its a very expensive package. I don't know if some characters make Sacresancts interesting. But I suspect its a similar issue. Now your unit is 230~ points and lots of things trade it into it on an okay basis.

I think that weigh up is something that will come with experience. To go with DE - a lot of people have said things like "you'll need a bodyguard for character X" - but do you? If a unit can attack to kill an Archon, odds are it can mow down 5/10 Kabalites standing next to him too.

 LesPaul wrote:
Mutalith Vortex Beast

Dear god

High or low?

 Dysartes wrote:

 LesPaul wrote:
Mutalith Vortex Beast

Dear god

High or low?

It should probably go up in points. I haven't gone to find any analogues, but it has a nice gun with options, T10 4+/5++/5+++ W13, and an ability that does a battleshock and MW bubble of all units within 6".

3 for them for less than a WK.

Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I feel like over costed status seems to belong to most former troops units now. And I think we could be in for some real skew lists moving forward.

The game has progressed from troops 'taxes' (whether you buy into that or not) that forced most armies to include what I'll call 'C tier' units.

To Arks of omens soft restrictions which still saw some C tier units included, I'd wager sometimes due to lack of remaining slots.

To 10th which removed all restrictions other than no more than 3 of a unit type.

Do troops or C tier infantry still have a real place in this edition? I mean once the dust settles. Currently everyone will play what they have and like. But metas tend to lean into what works.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Tyel wrote:
I think its hard to debate without getting a points bar.

I.E. I can see the argument for Retributors to be 110-115 rather than 130 - but in the context of Devastators being 120, Scourge being 120, Havocs being 135 etc it feels like 120ish points per 4 heavy weapons is about the bar with special rules changing the details. With some sort of factoring in for the unit/army special rules.

But looking at say Sacresancts, they are basically Incubi with -1 M and -1 AP but gain a 4++ - and only cost 75%~ as much. Which doesn't seem unreasonable. Drazhar arguably makes Incubi worth taking (+1 to wound significantly widens the window of targets where they'll do anything) - but this a 105 point model into say 85 - so its a very expensive package. I don't know if some characters make Sacresancts interesting. But I suspect its a similar issue. Now your unit is 230~ points and lots of things trade it into it on an okay basis.

I think that weigh up is something that will come with experience. To go with DE - a lot of people have said things like "you'll need a bodyguard for character X" - but do you? If a unit can attack to kill an Archon, odds are it can mow down 5/10 Kabalites standing next to him too.

You do understand that Devastator marines (and Havocs) are roughly double the stats of Retributors, have better weapons, a better army ability, a better faction ability, AND better buffing characters, right?

If a Devastator squad actually IS fair at 120, Retributors should be 80 or the stats system makes no sense. Even then, overwatch exists so I would be reluctant to take them at all, even at a dirt cheap rate.

None of the Sisters of battle buff characters are worth anything. Especially not in actual combat. Also, what character attaches to what unit is totally arcane and nonsensical and Sacresants specifically don't get their unit ability unless our Second worst character attaches to them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Why did I say Maleceptor when I meant Haruspex? How in the name of sensible did I blob that one so hard?

M 8”, T11, Sv 3+, W14, Ld 8+, OC 4

Ranged is Precision, 12” 3+”, A1, S6, AP -2, Dam D6+1. So capable of one-shotting a decent variety of characters. Especially if they’re not T4 or have 3+ or better.

Close Combat?

A14, WS 3+, S7, -1 Dam 2

Extra Attacks?


A4, WS 3+, S14, AP -2, Dam D6+1

For 125 points, it’s filth on a stick. You can’t tar pit. You can’t Dread Mob. Even sending in a bubble up support character is a risk because we all know the sense of humour Dice Gods have.

As I said the Extra Attacks are a bit swing because it’s D6+1 damage. So not exactly something I can entirely rely on for Dreadnought Tipping or Tank Flipping. But given they’re Extra Attacks, and the other 14 have a reasonable chance of plinking? It has no obvious counter. If you send in a squad and Dread or rough equivalent? I’m not forced to pick a profile, because I get both sets of attacks.

For 125 points.

The Vortex Beast is way too low. Look at its stats and abilities. The 1k Sons were not "simplified" the way other armies were.

 LesPaul wrote:
The Vortex Beast is way too low. Look at its stats and abilities. The 1k Sons were not "simplified" the way other armies were.

They were simplified - it just had a lot of abilities before, too. It averages 1.6MW per unit within 6". Thousand Sons are also a psychic army so their sheets have extra "guns". TS are probably quite strong, but they're not bucking the system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Why did I say Maleceptor when I meant Haruspex? How in the name of sensible did I blob that one so hard?

M 8”, T11, Sv 3+, W14, Ld 8+, OC 4

Ranged is Precision, 12” 3+”, A1, S6, AP -2, Dam D6+1. So capable of one-shotting a decent variety of characters. Especially if they’re not T4 or have 3+ or better.

Close Combat?

A14, WS 3+, S7, -1 Dam 2

Extra Attacks?


A4, WS 3+, S14, AP -2, Dam D6+1

For 125 points, it’s filth on a stick. You can’t tar pit. You can’t Dread Mob. Even sending in a bubble up support character is a risk because we all know the sense of humour Dice Gods have.

As I said the Extra Attacks are a bit swing because it’s D6+1 damage. So not exactly something I can entirely rely on for Dreadnought Tipping or Tank Flipping. But given they’re Extra Attacks, and the other 14 have a reasonable chance of plinking? It has no obvious counter. If you send in a squad and Dread or rough equivalent? I’m not forced to pick a profile, because I get both sets of attacks.

For 125 points.

Even that one I don't mind, either. Though I could be totally off base. These bigger models aren't usually picking up many other rules so they have to do it on their own. Generally in the games I've played so far stuff like this gets to the front and gets stuck. It'd probably meet up with my Scarabs and kill 1 or 2 models per fight phase.

These models being tough for the points is great, I think.

Compare to a Brutalis at 220 or Redemptor at 225.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Why did I say Maleceptor when I meant Haruspex? How in the name of sensible did I blob that one so hard?

M 8”, T11, Sv 3+, W14, Ld 8+, OC 4

Ranged is Precision, 12” 3+”, A1, S6, AP -2, Dam D6+1. So capable of one-shotting a decent variety of characters. Especially if they’re not T4 or have 3+ or better.

Close Combat?

A14, WS 3+, S7, -1 Dam 2

Extra Attacks?


A4, WS 3+, S14, AP -2, Dam D6+1

For 125 points, it’s filth on a stick. You can’t tar pit. You can’t Dread Mob. Even sending in a bubble up support character is a risk because we all know the sense of humour Dice Gods have.

As I said the Extra Attacks are a bit swing because it’s D6+1 damage. So not exactly something I can entirely rely on for Dreadnought Tipping or Tank Flipping. But given they’re Extra Attacks, and the other 14 have a reasonable chance of plinking? It has no obvious counter. If you send in a squad and Dread or rough equivalent? I’m not forced to pick a profile, because I get both sets of attacks.

For 125 points.

The main thing preventing me from feilding a haruspex is that if I do I can’t include my exocrine. Build my one model so I could swap heads/monsters. And the Exocrine still looks like it can just delete marines off the table casually. Hard to say “no” to that.

But the gibbering maw of endless hunger does make some really strong points.

Fire prisms vs falcons and night spinners. The night spinner being the same price as a falcon sort of tracks. If they decide one of those is worth 140, I can see the other reasonably being pretty similar in price. But then the fire prism is 15 points cheaper than both, which just feels weird.

The webway gate also looks prohibitively expensive. Its rules look pretty decent, more than 10% of your points in a 2k game for a model that doesn't attack and isn't *that* hard to destroy seems like a bit much.

Valkyries are wildly over costed.

Manticore is half the price of the Valkyrie...

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Fire prisms vs falcons and night spinners. The night spinner being the same price as a falcon sort of tracks. If they decide one of those is worth 140, I can see the other reasonably being pretty similar in price. But then the fire prism is 15 points cheaper than both, which just feels weird.

The webway gate also looks prohibitively expensive. Its rules look pretty decent, more than 10% of your points in a 2k game for a model that doesn't attack and isn't *that* hard to destroy seems like a bit much.

yes, but you are already being given free points in the form of undercosted unit, so the gate being 200pts, maybe covers the difference in points between a technicaly 2000pts eldar army and something like 2000pts of IG or tyranids.

It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal ballance.

They might be broken in every edition, but what’s treasure and what’s trash changes almost every time.