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 Sledgehammer wrote:
Valkyries are wildly over costed.

Manticore is half the price of the Valkyrie...

Honestly thats one of the only familiar things I've seen lately. I'd be concerned if it wasn't wildly over costed.
Luckily it has an "armoured hole" I assume thats a defense ability.

Undercosted:

Crisis suits with 3 CIB, shield generator, and 2 shield drones each.
in 9th, 3 CIBs and a shield generator cost 60 points on their own, before the cost of the suit to hold them.

Now they cost 65 points per model total. So when you play a triple CIB and Shield Generator crisis suit in 10th, you are effectively paying 5 points for the suit itself. And once you factor in shield drones, each of which adds 1 wound to the model, that cost actually likely becomes negative as I think we'd all agree that adding 2 wounds to an already 4 wound model with a 3+/4++ is worth more than 5 points. I don't know you can get much more undercosted than the game effectively giving you some points if you use them.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Undercosted:

Crisis suits with 3 CIB, shield generator, and 2 shield drones each.
in 9th, 3 CIBs and a shield generator cost 60 points on their own, before the cost of the suit to hold them.

Now they cost 65 points per model total. So when you play a triple CIB and Shield Generator crisis suit in 10th, you are effectively paying 5 points for the suit itself. And once you factor in shield drones, each of which adds 1 wound to the model, that cost actually likely becomes negative as I think we'd all agree that adding 2 wounds to an already 4 wound model with a 3+/4++ is worth more than 5 points. I don't know you can get much more undercosted than the game effectively giving you some points if you use them.

I don't think CIB is as compelling now though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I know you mean the Haruspex, but I'd argue that it's the other creatures that are too expensive.

180 for the Screamer Killer? And have you seen the cost of a Trygon? The non-synapse Broodlord and Parasite? The walking HT at 220!!!

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!


————————-

I’ve only really looked at Custodes points, but it’s Dawneagle Jetbikes for this army. Their stats got worse, their weapons got worse… but they went up in points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't think CIB is as compelling now though.

I ran the numbers over in the Tau Tactics thread, and a maxed out squad of CIB suits with commander support (500 points) will do 18 wounds on average to something like a land raider, while killing 1-2 of their own squad. Which does seem good, though I have not looked through enough profiles of targets to really quantify it. The really big downgrade I would say comes in the shield drones. The real power of old drones was in being separate models that just ate up any big attacks really, really efficiently. Now they are a much more linear increase in durability. So the durability of the unit has gone down relatively.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I know you mean the Haruspex, but I'd argue that it's the other creatures that are too expensive.

180 for the Screamer Killer? And have you seen the cost of a Trygon? The non-synapse Broodlord and Parasite? The walking HT at 220!!!

Still a lot of “find out in play” for me, and whilst generally not a fan of direct comparisons because such things never occur in a vacuum, just casting my eye over other stuff in other lists? 125 is cheap for a beasty with so few direct counter options.

Whilst an oversimplification, all I need do is push it up the board as quickly as I can, trying to keep out of LoS as best possible, my opponent has to try and take it out. With the general drop in lethality, especially in squad based weapons, I think a trio are gonna be near compulsory in any list i field. Sure they lack a fixed save or a native way to shrug off damage, but….they’re ever so cheap, still come with 14 wounds, and because they’re so cheap? They’re not gonna be the only thing I’m worrying the enemy with. Heck, if I plan properly it won’t ever be engaging a complete unit, but something that’s already had some kind of kicking, only increasing the likelihood of a slap up feast once it makes combat.

I just can’t see it not pulling its weight, because it punches so far above it. Even if the ones I’m fielding get shot off the board? T11, W14 and a 3+ is still going to draw a pretty high amount of enemy fire to achieve that.

Haruspex. They’re Gribbly. They’re Beardy. And I fell in love with them before I knew the points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Undercosted:

Crisis suits with 3 CIB, shield generator, and 2 shield drones each.
in 9th, 3 CIBs and a shield generator cost 60 points on their own, before the cost of the suit to hold them.

Now they cost 65 points per model total. So when you play a triple CIB and Shield Generator crisis suit in 10th, you are effectively paying 5 points for the suit itself. And once you factor in shield drones, each of which adds 1 wound to the model, that cost actually likely becomes negative as I think we'd all agree that adding 2 wounds to an already 4 wound model with a 3+/4++ is worth more than 5 points. I don't know you can get much more undercosted than the game effectively giving you some points if you use them.

I don't think CIB is as compelling now though.

Fair enough, triple fusion and a shield gen would have cost 55, so that means 10 point base crisis. Triple Missile Pod gives 15 point crisis suits before wargear.

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!

Iirc 5th had the unkillable falcon due to spirit stones and/or some other upgrade, and you could make them score objectives with the davu (Dire Avenger Vehicle Upgrade; a 5-strong squad transported in the falcon in an edition where transporting troops made the transport scoring). Not sure how competitive that was though.

It's one of the most annoying things about playing eldar, the internal codex balance is often all over the place. Some new edition or a new codex drops and suddenly a random handful of our units are gamebreakingly OP after being shelf decoration for years (often the rest of the units are ok-ish or just bad).

I just want to play some fluffy aspect warriors/counts-as corsairs and not auto-lose while hearing about how awesome my army is due to some units I don't even own.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Fair enough, triple fusion and a shield gen would have cost 55, so that means 10 point base crisis. Triple Missile Pod gives 15 point crisis suits before wargear.

You do realize that Crisis suits are one of the worst units you could use as an argument against 10th style points? They were being brought with max upgrades anyway, at least in terms of hardpoint slots. And the wacky 9th edition costs you are quoting shows the huge problem with trying to point out a unit like crisis suits in great detail. The 9th edition escalating gun costs were a weird artifact of trying to balance generalist and specialized builds on the same unit with weapons of varying quality. Having a point cost based on the actual performance of the unit with guns aimed at different jobs is much more reasonable.

Spore mines. Over twice the cost of a Guardsman, no armour, less movement, no ranged weapon, no OC. Wth.

Yaktan wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Fair enough, triple fusion and a shield gen would have cost 55, so that means 10 point base crisis. Triple Missile Pod gives 15 point crisis suits before wargear.

You do realize that Crisis suits are one of the worst units you could use as an argument against 10th style points? They were being brought with max upgrades anyway, at least in terms of hardpoint slots. And the wacky 9th edition costs you are quoting shows the huge problem with trying to point out a unit like crisis suits in great detail. The 9th edition escalating gun costs were a weird artifact of trying to balance generalist and specialized builds on the same unit with weapons of varying quality. Having a point cost based on the actual performance of the unit with guns aimed at different jobs is much more reasonable.

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Spore mines. Over twice the cost of a Guardsman, no armour, less movement, no ranged weapon, no OC. Wth.

Spore mines are arguably the best unit in the whole book. Admittedly probably not the ones you buy.

Aberants are pretty good now, but they're not 165pts for five good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

Yeah, I was doing comparisons of Crisis suits to other units in Tau army, and nothing has really popped out so far a being unreasonable. CIBs offer good punch, they can reasonably expect to kill a land-raider from a full squad, for about a 50% return. But then you are also giving the land raider a 30-50% return by just sitting there... Fusion blasters will do the same, but are going to be really swingy, and with how the army rule works it will be really tricky to be any sort of efficient if you want to split fire, along with going down to danger-close 12 inch range.

Likewise Breachers can get a good amount of firepower, but again 10 inch range is going to limit it. Strikers seem a little anemic, but they are cheaper and should do fine with objectives/spotting.

Ghostkeels seem a little lacking on the firepower side, but they are super sneaky and got to keep the LOL drone attack eating from 9th.

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!


————————-

I’ve only really looked at Custodes points, but it’s Dawneagle Jetbikes for this army. Their stats got worse, their weapons got worse… but they went up in points.

4th was the unkillable Falcon/Skimmerspam edition. So not so much there either.

Undercosted: Every single Eldar unit, but the amounts vary.

Overcosted: Every single Votann and Sisters unit, but the amounts also vary.

 Vilgeir wrote:
Undercosted: Every single Eldar unit, but the amounts vary.

I'm pretty sure it's the fate dice interacting with DW ( rerolls don't help ). Also, superheavies in general should probably go up in points. Not being able to hide from them creates an issue as well, but as a baseline they seem like they might be on par with each other.

Here's a Despoiler with double Battle Cannon shooting terminators ( with its on sheet rerolls and in RF range ):



And the Wraithknight ( with army rerolls and fishing for a 6 for DW ) :





Here's a Despoiler with double Thermal on a Knight:


And in Melta range:


And the WK:

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!

I choose to believe that this is satire.

On the ork side,

-Battlewagons could be a bit cheaper. maybe 30?
-Deffdreads certainly need to drop 10 or 20
-Stompas could easily lose 100pts and still be expensive

Nothing for orks feels too cheap to me, just about right for what they provide. Maybe mozrog is a bit too cheap for his durability? But his damage output off the charge is unexceptional.

Toxicrenes.
Trygons.
Screamer Killer.
Hive Tyrants.
Tervigons especially!
Tyranid Warriors (GW forgot it isn't 9th anymore).
Hive Guard (GW forgot that Impalers aren't S8 indirect fire anymore).
Broodlords (assuming its lack of synapse is intentional)
Parasite (as above)
Psychophage (rando attacks and really only good if fighting a psyker)
Sporocyst (145? LOL!)

I've got one that everyone seems to be sleeping on Lokhust Destroyers with an attached Lokhust Lord. So, 6 plus the Lord is a fairly substantial 265 points, but the firepower and durability you get from it is absurd.

So you get 18 shots, hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's with 5+ Lethal Hits. That's already an average of 7 auto wounds. The standard profile of S5 AP-2 D:2 is also solid in it's own right. You can also use Vengeful stars for 1CP to get a second round of shooting out of them if they are ever targeted. Plus you get D3 wounds back EACH command phase and have a strat to res more if needed. These are on a T6 3+sv, W3 modeles.

These things are going to erase full squads of heavy infantry every turn, be damn near impossible to kill, and can even punch up somewhat effectively into vehicles. Very few units are the whole swiss army package any more, this is one of them, keep your eyes on them.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!

I choose to believe that this is satire.

How? The Codex was actually fairly weak, the main thing people could complain about was Falcons with holo-fields (which were expensive).

The OP nonsense didn’t come until the new Codex with the Wave Serpent shields etc. Are you thinking of that one?

Yaktan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

Yeah, I was doing comparisons of Crisis suits to other units in Tau army, and nothing has really popped out so far a being unreasonable. CIBs offer good punch, they can reasonably expect to kill a land-raider from a full squad, for about a 50% return. But then you are also giving the land raider a 30-50% return by just sitting there... Fusion blasters will do the same, but are going to be really swingy, and with how the army rule works it will be really tricky to be any sort of efficient if you want to split fire, along with going down to danger-close 12 inch range.

Likewise Breachers can get a good amount of firepower, but again 10 inch range is going to limit it. Strikers seem a little anemic, but they are cheaper and should do fine with objectives/spotting.

Ghostkeels seem a little lacking on the firepower side, but they are super sneaky and got to keep the LOL drone attack eating from 9th.

I tried out the Crisis suits the other day and them becoming 6W models with a 4+ invul (assuming you take shields) is super chunky with how weapons have been more/less toned down this edition. I went against space marines and it took 3 turns of them pouring nearly everything into them with OOM (in a 1000 point game) just to down the 6 man squad and even that was only because of some 3 lucky D6 devastating wounds. Damage output is still great if you get them close. I wouldn't say they are over costed, but I like where they are at ATM.

Breachers are sure hamstrung by range, but boy do they output damage. Targeting a unit of Space Marines on an objective (with Kauyon and Stealthsuit marker) I dealt a whopping 26 wounds at Ap-1.

Speaking of, Stealthsuits giving things +1 to wound when marker lighting is REAL strong. not sure if they can be considered over costed because they don't do too much else and are relatively fragile, but if they live, they raise your damage output by A LOT.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Toxicrenes.
Trygons.
Screamer Killer.
Hive Tyrants.
Tervigons especially!
Tyranid Warriors (GW forgot it isn't 9th anymore).
Hive Guard (GW forgot that Impalers aren't S8 indirect fire anymore).
Broodlords (assuming its lack of synapse is intentional)
Parasite (as above)
Psychophage (rando attacks and really only good if fighting a psyker)
Sporocyst (145? LOL!)

I've actually heard good things about Trygons. Other than that, don't necessarily disagree.

Their rules are pretty alright, it's just that their cost is considerable compared to other similar things. The Mawloc is 145, and the Trygon is 180. It's the same issue the Screamer Killer has, being 180 compared to the Carnifexes 125 cost.

Give the Carnifex back it's WS3+ and +2 wounds, and cost both of them at 145-150, then you might have the sweetspot.

Overcosted: Most of Daemons.

160pts for a unit of 10 Bloodletters... T4 W1 7+ (just in case you were planning to using cover) 5++
or 140pts for a unit of 10 daemonettes at T3 W1 7+ 5++

There is no point taking lesser daemons since you don't have the points to take enough of them to matter, and those you have the points to take will just get shot off the board before they make any impact.

cody.d. wrote:
On the ork side,

-Battlewagons could be a bit cheaper. maybe 30?
-Deffdreads certainly need to drop 10 or 20
-Stompas could easily lose 100pts and still be expensive

Nothing for orks feels too cheap to me, just about right for what they provide. Maybe mozrog is a bit too cheap for his durability? But his damage output off the charge is unexceptional.

I mostly agree. Deff Dreads I could see staying the same cost if they gave them more wounds or -1 damage or something, but could overall do with a point decrease.

Battlewagons could probably sit around the 160 mark.

Stompa is the only thing in the book that looks grossly overcosted, could do with at least 100 points or so knocked off.

Otherwise at the moment I think the ork book is in a reasonably good spot in terms of points.

 Tawnis wrote:

Yaktan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

Yeah, I was doing comparisons of Crisis suits to other units in Tau army, and nothing has really popped out so far a being unreasonable. CIBs offer good punch, they can reasonably expect to kill a land-raider from a full squad, for about a 50% return. But then you are also giving the land raider a 30-50% return by just sitting there... Fusion blasters will do the same, but are going to be really swingy, and with how the army rule works it will be really tricky to be any sort of efficient if you want to split fire, along with going down to danger-close 12 inch range.

Likewise Breachers can get a good amount of firepower, but again 10 inch range is going to limit it. Strikers seem a little anemic, but they are cheaper and should do fine with objectives/spotting.

Ghostkeels seem a little lacking on the firepower side, but they are super sneaky and got to keep the LOL drone attack eating from 9th.

I tried out the Crisis suits the other day and them becoming 6W models with a 4+ invul (assuming you take shields) is super chunky with how weapons have been more/less toned down this edition. I went against space marines and it took 3 turns of them pouring nearly everything into them with OOM (in a 1000 point game) just to down the 6 man squad and even that was only because of some 3 lucky D6 devastating wounds. Damage output is still great if you get them close. I wouldn't say they are over costed, but I like where they are at ATM.

Breachers are sure hamstrung by range, but boy do they output damage. Targeting a unit of Space Marines on an objective (with Kauyon and Stealthsuit marker) I dealt a whopping 26 wounds at Ap-1.

Speaking of, Stealthsuits giving things +1 to wound when marker lighting is REAL strong. not sure if they can be considered over costed because they don't do too much else and are relatively fragile, but if they live, they raise your damage output by A LOT.

Aren't stealthsuits reroll 1s for wounds, not +1 to wound? Still good, but not THAT good.

 DominayTrix wrote:

Aren't stealthsuits reroll 1s for wounds, not +1 to wound? Still good, but not THAT good.

My bad, you're right. So many new rules, hard to keep them all straight.