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I am trying to create a list for my next battle soon and I have to make a decision between a unit that has precision weapons and one that does not.

Over 8th and 9th I have found that sniper weapons' tend to under perform as they get few attacks and generally need sixes to wound to do any actual damage so I am wondering if they are any better now in 10th.

It really depends on if you can deliver the required amount of damage to semi reliably kill a buffing character. A single weapon with precision is generally not going to do much, but massed precision might.


I'd suggest working the math back from the required wound count and toughness.

Ie to cause 4 damage though a 4+ save, you need to cause 8 wounds, which on equal toughness needs 16 hits, etc

Scout Snipers seem pretty great. Giving the rifles AP-2 and D2 is a hefty boost, plus they hit on 2s when not moving. Solid damage dealers once you take a full squad.

I managed to take out an attached Commissar with a Hot-shot Marksman Rifle turn 1 or 2 in my first game, so they're not entirely useless.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
It really depends on if you can deliver the required amount of damage to semi reliably kill a buffing character. A single weapon with precision is generally not going to do much, but massed precision might.


I'd suggest working the math back from the required wound count and toughness.

Ie to cause 4 damage though a 4+ save, you need to cause 8 wounds, which on equal toughness needs 16 hits, etc

This. My eldar rangers and their Damage 2 guns can be taken in sufficient numbers to realistically snipe out a character at least once a game. But I wouldn't bank on Ahriman doing the same with his staff.

But of course, you have to weigh the cost of getting enough precision weapons to reliably snipe a character against the cost of just taking non-precision options and wiping out the character's unit entirely.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
It really depends on if you can deliver the required amount of damage to semi reliably kill a buffing character. A single weapon with precision is generally not going to do much, but massed precision might.


I'd suggest working the math back from the required wound count and toughness.

Ie to cause 4 damage though a 4+ save, you need to cause 8 wounds, which on equal toughness needs 16 hits, etc

This. My eldar rangers and their Damage 2 guns can be taken in sufficient numbers to realistically snipe out a character at least once a game. But I wouldn't bank on Ahriman doing the same with his staff.

But of course, you have to weigh the cost of getting enough precision weapons to reliably snipe a character against the cost of just taking non-precision options and wiping out the character's unit entirely.

That's why I asked what gun - Sniper Scouts are in a good place not because they have precision guns, but because they have good guns with precision as a "frosting on the cake" Those sniper rifles can take out some characters from inside their squad sure, but they can also delete the squad from around the character before too long making the character vulnerable to something else.

I suspect SM Eliminators may be pretty good. D3 and -2AP makes them pretty dangerous to most characters, though you're only getting a max of 3 shots. I think with characters now attached to units, it becomes a little more difficult to completely hide them. Previously, you just tucked them into a corner of a ruin and kept units within aura range, but now they have to go where their unit does, so players will have to make a decision about whether to protect their character or utilise their unit.

Of course precision needs los so opponent can move unit in place(like objective) leaving character behind los blocking terrain.

Slipspace wrote:
I suspect SM Eliminators may be pretty good. D3 and -2AP makes them pretty dangerous to most characters, though you're only getting a max of 3 shots. I think with characters now attached to units, it becomes a little more difficult to completely hide them. Previously, you just tucked them into a corner of a ruin and kept units within aura range, but now they have to go where their unit does, so players will have to make a decision about whether to protect their character or utilise their unit.

Don't forget S5 - but I'm still more inclined to go Sniper Scouts. Part of that is Telion, part of it is not liking the 3-and-only-3, but a lot of it is 12" Super Stealth, and 10 S4 -2 D2 vs (2x)3 S5 -2 D3 Devastating - The Devastating Las Fusil feels like a better use of Eliminators.

Precision weapons are pretty nice, but they don't generate mortal wounds anymore. Most characters have pretty beefy invul saves. You need a lot of precision wounds to bypass them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Precision weapons are pretty nice, but they don't generate mortal wounds anymore. Most characters have pretty beefy invul saves. You need a lot of precision wounds to bypass them.

I think that's less of a factor. - Precision doesn't have Anti-Character which lends itself towards an emerging SvT issue = characters are no longer the T3/T4 blinged out guy in the squad. Necron Overlords, Crisis Suits, and Terminator Captains are T5, Gravis Captains, Orks In Mega Armour, and others are T6, Many Nids are even higher. Basically Good Guns/Units with Precision are Better. Bad Guns/Units with Precision are Still Bad The Sniper Rifle you see on Ratligs, and Scouts are basically the Heavy Bolt Rifle from editions past. Its a fair to good gun with 1 heavy shot, doing 2D with a -2 AP. Add in the No-Shooting-Outside-Of-12 and its a good (or even great) unit that is better with Precision.

Prosecutors are niche but pretty good.

They do a nice job of being a 40 point expendable objective grabber squad in a custodes list, but getting PRECISION and DEVASTATING WOUNDS when firing on a psyker unit makes them great for taking out psyker leaders. 5 bolters isn't scary but when you've got 3 or 4 units concentrating fire and they've all got precision it adds up.

Condemnor Boltguns are similar when every sororitas superior and Canoness can carry one. PRECISION, ANTI-PSYKER 2+ and DEVASTATING WOUNDS is obviously a bit of a metagame decision but against the right opponent it's a terrifying weapon.

locarno24 wrote:
Prosecutors are niche but pretty good.

They do a nice job of being a 40 point expendable objective grabber squad in a custodes list, but getting PRECISION and DEVASTATING WOUNDS when firing on a psyker unit makes them great for taking out psyker leaders. 5 bolters isn't scary but when you've got 3 or 4 units concentrating fire and they've all got precision it adds up.

Condemnor Boltguns are similar when every sororitas superior and Canoness can carry one. PRECISION, ANTI-PSYKER 2+ and DEVASTATING WOUNDS is obviously a bit of a metagame decision but against the right opponent it's a terrifying weapon.

Less so that compared to last edition - I could see a lot of armies that didn't run a psyker last time running at least one this time. What will be interesting is if it's better to take out the actual psyker or to leave them for later to keep Mortal'ing the Bodyguard.

I guess it's a balancing act. A condemmnor stake hits are basically a garuanteed kills against most squaddies (give or take wound count) if they're unfortunate enough to have a squad mate with psyker. If it's a generic librarian attached to a sternguard squad for the invulnerable save, then stake the squad.

If its count-totally-not-dracula-honest attached to some expendable bullet shields....

The precision rule is nice, because in itself it’s not a triggered ability, you just get it all of the time. This means you’re not fishing for sixes etc just to then have to worry about hurting the target.

Whether a given weapon with precision is any cop will really depend.

My top pick unit for Nids is the Haruspex. Nice general purpose melee heavy hitter, with a Precision ranged attack.

That is a single shot per turn weapon, but at S6, AP-2 Dam D6+1, it does stand some chance of taking out a character. The exact level of chance will of course vary from target to target. It can drop most Space Marine targets yes, but it’s more reliable against squishier stuff, like Eldar, Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard.

The upside is I think it’ll prove just useful enough that opponents will have to worry about it. And that in itself is a benefit.

Add in the Haruspex is a Monster and so can still try to use it in combat (albeit at -1 to hit) and things really do appeal.

Eliminators feel pretty solid.

S5 AP2 D3 means that even if there are no great characters for them to snipe, they can still go after stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Terminators and other W3-stuff.

Devastating and Precision is just the cherry on top.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Eliminators feel pretty solid.

S5 AP2 D3 means that even if there are no great characters for them to snipe, they can still go after stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Terminators and other W3-stuff.

Devastating and Precision is just the cherry on top.

Problem is the 3 and only 3 unit size. That means 3 and only 3 shots. One Misses, One Fails to wound, and one gets armor/Invuln saved. I've been more interested in a Devastating Las Fusil. If I'm sniping I'll put Telion in a Scout Sniper Squad.

Breton wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Eliminators feel pretty solid.

S5 AP2 D3 means that even if there are no great characters for them to snipe, they can still go after stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Terminators and other W3-stuff.

Devastating and Precision is just the cherry on top.

Problem is the 3 and only 3 unit size. That means 3 and only 3 shots. One Misses, One Fails to wound, and one gets armor/Invuln saved. I've been more interested in a Devastating Las Fusil. If I'm sniping I'll put Telion in a Scout Sniper Squad.

If you think 3 are too few, bring more units? (And they hit on 2+)

Las Fusils don't have precision so I don't see the relevance. If you're fishing for Devastating then by all means, but those won't take out characters and you might as well fish for Devastating with Bolt Sniper Rifles. (Or simply bring something else entirely if you're after anti-tank/monster.)

Telion and regular Scout Snipers are only S4 (and without Devastating) so if you feel that Eliminators won't be able to reliably take out characters, I fail to see how Scout Snipers would (even if Lethal Hits from Telion do help), except against T3 characters where they'd be pretty solid.

I'd say in an allcommers list I prefer Eliminators as they do have some utility with their D3 Devastating shots even against armies where Precision won't have any effect.
10 Scouts with Telion however is quite the investment (220 pts) if you find that your opponent doesn't really bring anything worth sniping.

Breton wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Eliminators feel pretty solid.

S5 AP2 D3 means that even if there are no great characters for them to snipe, they can still go after stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Terminators and other W3-stuff.

Devastating and Precision is just the cherry on top.

Problem is the 3 and only 3 unit size. That means 3 and only 3 shots. One Misses, One Fails to wound, and one gets armor/Invuln saved. I've been more interested in a Devastating Las Fusil. If I'm sniping I'll put Telion in a Scout Sniper Squad.

That is only issue if you want more than 9.

Taking more than 1 unit is allowed after all.

3 units average 3.33 past t4 3+. Before factoring devastating wound.

You miss, fail to wound, get saved same odds whether you have 1 unit of 3 or 2 units of 3. So by your logic unit of 6 2 mis, 2 fail to wound, 2 gets saves..

 MinscS2 wrote:


Las Fusils don't have precision so I don't see the relevance. If you're fishing for Devastating then by all means, but those won't take out characters and you might as well fish for Devastating with Bolt Sniper Rifles. (Or simply bring something else entirely if you're after anti-tank/monster.)

Multiple Squads means Multiple CP for Strats.

Monsters and Tanks are far less likely to have an invuln than characters you'd aim at with Precision. I wouldn't fish for Devastating - because I wouldn't give up successes in this situation, but I wouldn't mind them as gravy.

I think Eliminators are "plinkers" Their shooting -whichever gun it is - is secondary to whatever else they're doing like objectives/quarters/whatever and the Lasfusils will need fewer opportunities at a "target of opportunity", as well as have more of them what with there likely being more monsters/vehicles/very heavy infantry than there are characters.

I mean, by all means take Lasfusils if you want, but Eliminators with Lasfusils are essentially a completely different unit than Eliminators with Boltrifles and will most likely fire at different things. Apples and Oranges and all that.

This thread is about Precision, and as far as utilizing Precision, I think that Eliminators with Boltrifles are solid, because even if there aren't any great characters to snipe, they can still perform.

Are Eliminators with Lasfusils good? Sure, but I don't see the relevance to this topic.

Actually the two units I am deciding between are Eliminators with snipers or Las-fusils.

I want to like snipers, but Ratlings are just too many points for my liking. 70 for 5, when scout snipers are only 75 for 5. Ratlings are just so much worse, as scarper is nice but it is no lone operative. Plus the defensive stats are so different as to be comical.

I guess for Guard you can just mix snipers into your battleline an command squads, which allows you to get a lot of sniper rifles scattered throughout your army.

 KingGarland wrote:
Actually the two units I am deciding between are Eliminators with snipers or Las-fusils.

Thats hard to answer since it kinda depends on the rest of your list; What does it need? Anti-light vehicles/monsters or anti-characters?

One thing that shouldn't be underestimated is the psychological effect on your opponent, knowing that you have 3 long range precision shots with devastating wounds and D3.

 Trickstick wrote:
I want to like snipers, but Ratlings are just too many points for my liking. 70 for 5, when scout snipers are only 75 for 5. Ratlings are just so much worse, as scarper is nice but it is no lone operative. Plus the defensive stats are so different as to be comical.

Yeah, the issue there lies with the Ratlings: They're waaay too overpriced. Scarper is one of those rules that look good on paper (so GW prices it at a premium) but is actually pretty meh. The "Lone Operative"-esque rule Scouts have is much better, and once you consider the stat-differences (+2 T, +2 save, +1W, can actually kill stuff in melee) the fact that Ratlings are only 1 ppm less is flat out stupid.

If Scouts /w Snipers are 75 pts for 5, then Ratlings should at most be 40 pts for 5.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Yeah, the issue there lies with the Ratlings: They're way too overpriced. Scarper is one of those rules that look good on paper (so GW prices it at a premium) but is actually pretty meh.

They are just bait for indirect weapons, and will get wiped out by the smallest amount with their t2 and sv6+. Also, they have to scarper to stay safe from any return fire, so they are not getting the heavy bonus to their shots. I'd easily pay 70 if they just had lone operative or something. Even make it a somewhat worse rule, like they only get it in cover, or have to use scarper to get it somehow.