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 MinscS2 wrote:

 Quixote wrote:

What's the thematic reason for their inclusion, if they dont really add anything tactically to the army?

They do give TS something with Infiltrate, so there's that.
They're also Infiltrators with a nasty (free) Overwatch if you go with the Claw+Handflamer option, where you average 14 S5 AP2 hits and 8 S4 AP1 hits (that all ignore cover) and a Helfyre Missile hit or two + they have decent enough punch in melee.

Do they give TS something they sorely need? Not really, but they do give them something they didn't have, and I'm all for it.

The Rubric-based detachment has an enhancement that gives two (?) units of Rubric Marines Infiltrate. So far, that detachment is my favorite. Having finally seen the whole datasheet for the robots, they seem good for their points. 45 points per model nets decent defensive stats, a heavy flamer, a mini flamer, a hellfyre rack, and a power claw, all with Infiltrate and Stealth plus free Overwatch or Heroic Intervention.

Still don't like the models.

Here is the full review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5t0FPCp3IM

I think the book it looking pretty good. The Tzgor and daemon detachment seem kind of niche, but the others look pretty good. I have come around on the change to the cabal, having the test and the ability to only use the 3 dice if necessary and try again with another unit if you fail offsets the old issue of failing all your psych tests. Also, now we don't need to maximize the number of sorcerers in the army to generate points, so can spend on other units.

I am really looking forward to playing this book

How do you think Magnus will be used in this edition?

I've always enjoyed the big centerpiece models in games.

Well here we go, there's a group of sekhetar bots painted in a more traditional 40k Thousand Sons style and they do look a lot better. Unfortunately looking at the article there doesn't appear to be any alternate heads. Hopefully we'll get some sprue review pics from Stahly, tomorrow, to confirm exactly what you can build from the kit.



https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/wmtk5ffc/community-painters-capture-the-new-sekhetar-robots-in-these-awesome-dioramas/

Yea the robots look a lot better in other paint schemes then that bone looking one. I like the traditional paint, also the one where it blends into the background it cool. They also have pretty good stats and I think they will be a staple of competitive lists

I still don't think they look great.

I think its the perpendicular gun-arms. Its sort of screaming "90s plastic toy" at me rather than "2020s gaming miniature."

Also I really just don't like the idea. Its kind of Centurion-esque. "Lets create a unit between a Terminator and a Dreadnought." "Why?" "Just cos."

Tyel wrote:
I still don't think they look great.

I think its the perpendicular gun-arms. Its sort of screaming "90s plastic toy" at me rather than "2020s gaming miniature."

Also I really just don't like the idea. Its kind of Centurion-esque. "Lets create a unit between a Terminator and a Dreadnought." "Why?" "Just cos."

Yea I agree that the flamer arm should probably have been an upper arm with the flamer attached as the lower arm, similar to the melta gun. That would have looked better, but with the right paint job they don't look terrible.

As a lore prospective, I like it. Thousand Sons used automata in the HH, and it does fit their theme of using automated guards who don't ask questions or get curious about what treasures they are guarding. (like rubrics and SoT).

Although I would have rather had a psyker dreadnought added to the range, but I plan on picking up a box of these guys in a few months, once the initial craziness of the pre-orders and initial drop ends.

I'll most likely get 4 of them.

I think they look "fine" (not great, not terrible), their rules seem good without being busted, and the thought of Infiltrating 4 Heavy Warpflamers and 4 Warpflame Projectors while overwatching without paying CP for it fills me with glee.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'll most likely get 4 of them.

I think they look "fine" (not great, not terrible), their rules seem good without being busted, and the thought of Infiltrating 4 Heavy Warpflamers and 4 Warpflame Projectors while overwatching without paying CP for it fills me with glee.

So, yeah, the 'Eavy Metal paint job was doing a lot of the work towards me hating these things. I'm still not sold on that scarab face, tough.

I'm already playing with the idea of infiltrating 12 of these of things along with 20 Rubric Marines (with Warpflamers, obviously). Start the game owning the mid-board and I freaking dare you to chase me off of it.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'll most likely get 4 of them.

I think they look "fine" (not great, not terrible), their rules seem good without being busted, and the thought of Infiltrating 4 Heavy Warpflamers and 4 Warpflame Projectors while overwatching without paying CP for it fills me with glee.

So, yeah, the 'Eavy Metal paint job was doing a lot of the work towards me hating these things. I'm still not sold on that scarab face, tough.

I'm already playing with the idea of infiltrating 12 of these of things along with 20 Rubric Marines (with Warpflamers, obviously). Start the game owning the mid-board and I freaking dare you to chase me off of it.

That's why my default list takes Infiltrators galore. I win deployment? Good luck taking the middle when there's now an 18+" bubble you can't go in!

I think the vehicle detachment might be best even for mixed lists. Unlike other vehicle detachments it still encourages you to take psyker key word so mix with character and rubrics and SoT. And TS usually struggle with heavy targets. The character rubric and SoT data sheets are pretty good against light medium infantry without any support and the vehicle detachment really amps up the damage to powerful low shot weapons to kill heavy targets. I think that one is going to get played a lot.

Magic Knights, new Codex (now potentially with a tiny bit of magic!).



It lost a bit of OC, but gained infiltrating robots. And a shaman for one of the Enlightened. And occasional magic. And occasional rerolls for some of your vehicles. Still jank, but still doable.

Watched a battle report from Tabletop Tactics with the new book (but the book's printed points, which are generally higher than the leaked MFM points). The faction ability really does feel like a psychic phase.

I guess its just echoing the broad internet - but while I think its cool they exist, Warpmeld Pact and Changehost of Deceit look like quite weak detachments. I think both suffer from just not buffing widely enough.

Rather than being "Tzaangor: the detachment", it feels like Warpmeld is "Mutaliths: the detachment". Its the only unit which really benefits from the rules, so logically you should take 3. I guess you can put 20 Tzaangor on an objective, and with -1 to wound and a 4++ its not a trivial matter to get rid of them. Potentially with -1 to hit from a daemon prince too. But for a few points more, you could have just had 10 Rubrics or 5 Scarabs. So... is it really worth it?

I think part of the issue is that the core rules/ not quite psychic phase is really focused on ranged units. Two buffs to ranged attacks (hitting/ap) - and a movement ability that stops you charging. So if you make an assault focused list (Tzaangor, Spear Enlightened, Spawn) you aren't really benefiting from the army rule. But then if you aren't taking mutants, you aren't really benefiting from the detachment rule. Not saying its unplayable, but just feel like the synergy is weak.

Its much the same case with the Daemons. They don't benefit from the spells even with their ranged attacks. And half the detachment ability just seems to be that Kairos or LoC can cast them when in 6" of a Thousand Sons unit. Which is.. something I guess... but you probably aren't exactly wanting for other casters? (Although having the LoC potentially eat a few mortals is probably preferably to eating Rubrics/Scarabs) So what's the draw? A 4++ but only against ranged attacks? This is just so very tame.

I'm reasonably confident by contrast the Warpforged Cabal is just going to get hard nerfed - or it is alone is going to drive the points up of all Thousand Sons vehicles to the point where they aren't remotely viable in other detachments. Getting a reroll to hit, wound and damage is insane. Have they learned nothing from index-era Eldar?

I think Warpmeld Pact is a great detachment, honestly. It doesn't have as much raw killing power as the vehicle detachment (although MVBs can pack some serious firepower), but it's very mobile and can let you jail your opponents and use uppy-downy Tzaangors to steal backfield objectives and such. I mean, given what Tzaangors can do (and the 6" consolidate strat), if you get first turn, it won't be impossible to throw a big block of 17+ Tzaangors in your opponent's face who are -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and have a 4++. That's a pain in the ass jail to break out of. The detachment also has a pseudo-sticky objective strat (the one that lets you turn a dead character into a Spawn), and you can even build your big Tzaangor unit back up with another strat. Granted the Tzaangors aren't going to kill anything tougher than a Guardsman, but that's why you bring other stuff like MVBs and Enlightened (or, hell, even just regular Rubrics and stuff like that). Obviously we'll have to see how it plays on the table, but I suspect it will do pretty well.

I think the Tgor detachment will be good in the same way that the cultist one and zombie one is. If you skew it to lots of bodies and scoring points instead of playing the damage game. Not my particular style, but I bet at least one person wins an event with something like that. It also helps that the detachment rule affect the Mutilth, making them really hard to deal with. Any competitive list for this detachment will probably have like 80 to 100 Tgors, and three mutiliths. With the -1 to wound ability that is a lot of bodies to get through for most lists (ironically, Tsons have a lot of the tools to deal with that list with all the flamers that you can include).

I think for most people the competitive list will be the vehicle detachment as it fills a role that the Tsons lack, which is good anti-tank. Like I said above the base datasheets are already super efficient against light and medium infantry so making your anti-tank super efficient is probably what you want. Also I am not sold on the Coven detachment as, unless you are bringing Magnus (who is not an auto-include anymore) I don't think you get a whole lot out of the detachment rule, and really the only good one is the +1 to wound, as most psychic attacks already have [Devastating Wounds]. I like the enhancements though especially the +1 S/dam one.

I don't think the rubric one will be that powerful unless you just build into it with rubrics (SoT don't get much of of the detachment rule) and bring like 60 rubrics. Again I think someone will have success with that kind of skew list, but not my thing.

It's kind of a pity that we can't still take our index list, but with the new MFM points and Codex rules. There would be a lot of fun things to do with it. Having dev/sus/lethal psychic on any particular turn, and strats that fit the new army make-up a bit better, and some rather tasty enhancements, would have been nice.


And for the Warphex Thrallbrand one... I read a comment somewhere that put it like this "Hey, now a Rhino does everything that entire detachment did!". So yeah, it's still not great, although the lowered points cost and the changes to magic does make it better imo.

So.... any glaring weaknesses that you see in the 'dex?

Or does it all work?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So.... any glaring weaknesses that you see in the 'dex?

Or does it all work?

I haven't played it yet, but I think it looks like there will be some builds. I think Magnus and some DPs in the coven will be good, Mutaliths are good, Enlightened with Bows are good, and both Rubrics and SoT look solid. Ahriman is complete trash now, guess that is punishment for being auto include in the index (although so was Magnus so who knows)

I think one of the issues is that there is no detachment that supports all or even the majority of units. We don't have a Battle Host, or VotlW style detachments that just kind of helps everything. So each detachment is going to have to have a specific build, and you will be drawing on the raw power of the data sheets most of the time, but the core ones seem good and costed to move (for now) so I think that will be all right.

I am thinking for my first game either the vehicle detachment to support the AT fire, or the Coven with DPs and more characters. Not sure which one I am going to do yet. If I owned three Mutaliths I would use the Tzgor detachment just to buff them, and then bring a unit of Enlightened and one small skirmishing squad of Tzgor for objectives. That detachment rule makes the Mutaliths so nasty it is worth it just to support them.

The daemon detachment is just bad from the look of it. If the 4++ was to any model, not just infantry, then it might be ok, but it needs to support the daemons who are not LoC more.

I am not sold on the Rubric detachment, unless you are going full stop Rubrics. I don't think the SoT gain very much on average from that rule, and I think even if you have SoT and Rubrics, the Coven is better with better strats and enhancments, or bring the Tzgor detachment/vehicle detachment to amp up your AT shots.

Those are just my thoughts. Hopefully will get a game in soon enough and we can see what they do on the table.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So.... any glaring weaknesses that you see in the 'dex?

Or does it all work?

No good chaff.
Cultists are gone and Tzaangors are overpriced.

There are workarounds, but theyr'e a bit finicky or require a certain detachment.

I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.

 xeen wrote:
I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.

It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).

 BorderCountess wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.

It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).

Do you think Daemons will have a place (possibly as a Detachment) in the new Chaos Knights 'dex?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.

It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).

Do you think Daemons will have a place (possibly as a Detachment) in the new Chaos Knights 'dex?

No. Given the Grotmas detachments the two Knights factions got, I'm not expecting any in-codex allies. Frankly, I'm having a hard time imagining getting more than 3 or 4 detachments, because frankly how many ways can you play "big, stompy mechs"? For Chaos Knights, at least, I'm expecting different detachments for Iconoclast vs. Infernal households, but I have no idea what else to expect.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.

It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).

Do you think Daemons will have a place (possibly as a Detachment) in the new Chaos Knights 'dex?

No. Given the Grotmas detachments the two Knights factions got, I'm not expecting any in-codex allies. Frankly, I'm having a hard time imagining getting more than 3 or 4 detachments, because frankly how many ways can you play "big, stompy mechs"? For Chaos Knights, at least, I'm expecting different detachments for Iconoclast vs. Infernal households, but I have no idea what else to expect.

Not to threadjack this... thread, but the rumor mill (I pulled it off B&C, so take it with a mountain of salt) says that Big Stompy Robots, non-spiky edition will have these detachments.

Detachmnets:



Defenders of the Realm: warpbane/canoptec court rule ( deployment zone counting as Protected ground/etc etc)

As long you sit on Protected ground, +1 to hit / additional +1 to wound if also staying on an objective

Sticky objectives strat



Omnissiah conclave: buff table, active all game, at the start of the battle either pick one or roll twice

+1 to Hit melee

+1 A on strikes / +3A on sweeps

+1 STR to ranged weapons

+1 BS while stationary

+1" M

+2" charge

Strat to give one extra buff for the turn to a model (armigers take MW when using it)



Freeblades Crusader: ignore the degrading profile stat malus on all <Imperial Knight> keyworded units

If no friendly unit within 6", 5+ FNP



Adamantine Hunt: can deploy units in the reinforcement step of the first 3 turns, regardless of mission rules

They also can use strategic reserves counting the turn as +1

Enchancement for DS and stratagem for 6" drop

That might give an idea of what Chaos Knights might have.

Now back to your regularly scheduled 1000 Sons Thread...

I've been spending probably too much time idly thinking through the Changehost of Deceit detachment.

Was hoping after the internet negativity my natural tendency to snowflake could find some gold here. And I think people are potentially underestimating some of the movement/defensive tricks, which they are simultaneously rating so highly in the Warpmeld Pact Detachment.

But... I'm sort of coming to a general conclusion on all the Daemon Detachments (maybe not the WE one, but I've looked at WE the least). The Chaos Codexes are all I think reasonably pushed. Maybe they won't appear so much after a balance pass - but at least on release they feel a step up from the start of 10th edition. As you'd tend to expect with late edition codexes. Moderation wanes in the face of handing out perks to datasheets and more interesting special rules.

The Daemons by contrast seem largely just as they were. And as a result kind of second rate.

So you could take Kairos and LOCs - but while they were quite reasonable, even good, at the start of the edition, I'm not sure at 260/250, you are getting enough for your points today. Sure you can go full Monster Mash with Magnus and MVBs - but this isn't really gaining anything from the detachment. Its a pure stat check.

Then you start comparing Flamers versus Flamer Rubrics. Smaller squads are cheaper and faster - but the firepower is unlikely to hit a critical threshhold. Screamers versus Stabby Enlightened? There's the perk of being able to take the big unit of 6 screamers for 160 - but idk. Horrors are potentially in an interesting spot versus Rubrics/Tzaangors - but probably not so much you'd be excited by them.

And while some have suggested keep the daemons to the minimum, you need them to be targets for many of your stratagems. Which is where I think the deceptive scoring power lies.

So I sort of reach the conclusion that the detachment is probably quite playable - because of the inherent power of the Thousand Sons codex. But its unclear beyond fun why you'd go this route. Much I think like the detachments for Emperors Children and Death Guard (who are a bit bonkers).

But maybe "fun" allied detachments that aren't super competitive but are still playable are good for the game. I like the GSC/Tyranid one for example. And if they aren't causing balance problems, they can exist for players who want to run something different, rather than are focused purely on results.

Here's a fun party trick for the Rubricae Phalanx:

Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Rinse and repeat.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Here's a fun party trick for the Rubricae Phalanx:

Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Rinse and repeat.

I can see myself try this and immediately roll a 1 on the res-attempt...

 MinscS2 wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Here's a fun party trick for the Rubricae Phalanx:

Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Rinse and repeat.

I can see myself try this and immediately roll a 1 on the res-attempt...

Playing a Tzeentch army requires a certain sense of humor. After all, Tzeentch is, by far, the most fickle of the Chaos Gods.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Here's a fun party trick for the Rubricae Phalanx:

Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Rinse and repeat.

Sooo.... how would one go about negating that? I'm sure Tzeentch wouldn't mind you sharing that with me.