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The Word Bearers or the Black Templars? In reading the Dawn of Fire book 4, they are posed as opposites, but I can't get over how similar they are. It's not really well represented in other legions, unless you count the World eaters and the Space wolves for being really eager to fight because they're so angry.

Maybe the 1kSons and the GK, but the GK really aren't a founding chapter, in the strictest sense. They're more of a pet project by Big E and his best Psyker.

In any event, who is more fervent in their beliefs? The Sons of Dorn or the Sons of Lorgar?

Who prays more?

Black Templars.

Word Bearers might once have been, but they've basically become jaded contrarians who worship chaos because the Emperor and Guiliman took a big old dump in their cheerios and not because they actually like Chaos.

Some Word bearers might be even more fervant on an individual level, since they are not really reluctant to get possessed, which might arguably be worsed than mere death in 40k.

But I'd say, as all chaos factions, you could say that their so called devotion is totally warped by hatred and lust for power, rather than be actual devotion.

So in the end, especially as a unified force, Grey templar is right, I'd bet black templars

 Grey Templar wrote:
Black Templars.

Word Bearers might once have been, but they've basically become jaded contrarians who worship chaos because the Emperor and Guiliman took a big old dump in their cheerios and not because they actually like Chaos.

Sorry what? The Word Bearers don't hold their hatred of Guilliman and his sons above their adoration of the Pantheon. The key to the Legion turning to Chaos was certainly turned by the Emperor and Guilliman when Monarchia was razed but it wasn't hatred or bitterness that pushed Lorgar into the arms of the Dark Gods, it was misery. The Emperor erred in not actually teaching Lorgar the error of his ways and just assumed that he and the Word Bearers would fall in line after being humiliated.
Those Word Bearers who did hold their hatred higher than their devotion were specifically sent to Calth to die to purify the Legion and to empower the Ruinstorm. Some survived but the greater remaining portion of the Legion was dedicated to the gods above all else, something that was proven when Lorgar attempted to usurp Horus as Warmaster and was betrayed by some within his Legion who viewed Horus as the avatar of the Pantheon (which he sort of was at that point).
The Word Bearers also aren't as blinkered in their beliefs as the Black Templars are. They know the Dark Gods are fickle and ruthless beings but they serve them nonetheless. They fight not to subjugate or to destroy humanity but to enlighten it and bring it into the embrace of the True Gods.

Word Bearers do devotional chanting and incense (apparently), but we would need a prayer meter in order to register the level of fervency.

Many Word Bearers will bear passages from the Book of Lorgar on their armour, some will carve these passages into the suit, and others will literally carve it into their skin so they are always carrying the Word of Lorgar.
I'd say that compared to some branded Aquila's, that's pretty damned devoted.

Splitting hairs somewhat?

Word Bearers technically lack faith. Because they’ve replaced faith with outright knowledge their Gods exist. That their gods can affect the material realm.

The question of The Emperor’s divinity remains an open one. He exists. He is worshipped. But that is not in itself enough to be divine. At least not in the usual way we might consider such things.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Splitting hairs somewhat?

Word Bearers technically lack faith. Because they’ve replaced faith with outright knowledge their Gods exist. That their gods can affect the material realm.

The question of The Emperor’s divinity remains an open one. He exists. He is worshipped. But that is not in itself enough to be divine. At least not in the usual way we might consider such things.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In any event, who is more fervent in their beliefs?

I did a ctrl-F for faith, and found it twice before posting this-only in your post, Grotsnik.
The question is not about faith-it's about beliefs.

You want to split hairs, you better make sure you've got the right hair!

It’s kind of implied

But the point stands. Word Bearers don’t believe in their gods. They know. They may not have perfect knowledge of what exactly it is they’re in thrall to and pleading with. But they know the entities exist, and if you get your ritual right, you absolutely can treat with them and gain favours.

Heh, you just described faith

This is kinda the talk that Gabriel gives Constantine. He can't preach faith, because he KNOWS God exists.

Point however, is I think the BT are not willing to cross certain lines for their beliefs. WB have already crossed the ultimate Line, due to them having literally sacrificed their souls to their "gods". The BT would never do that to the Big E. They talk big, but they'd never cross that line.

I listened to Arch warhammer's (you think what you will of him but his very good at the lore) Horus heresy breakdown and he explained something like this:

It's not that they belive that much. It is that the Word bearers know and see it as a form of science. They know that the chaos gods can do A if you do ritual B, or can do C if correcly sacrificing a sliced in half hair or whatever.

Consiodering they initially turn to them after effectively being rebuffed by the emperor and learning of them, it stands to reason that in the end, them worshipping chaos is very utilitarian. Granted, many of them as pointed out will sacrifice even their soul, which is quite the devotion I agree.

But as a whole, I'd say the Black templars have full faith, whereas that of the Word Bearers is a more utilitarian one, which in my view makes the BT more zealots.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
It's not that they belive that much. It is that the Word bearers know and see it as a form of science. They know that the chaos gods can do A if you do ritual B, or can do C if correcly sacrificing a sliced in half hair or whatever.

Consiodering they initially turn to them after effectively being rebuffed by the emperor and learning of them, it stands to reason that in the end, them worshipping chaos is very utilitarian. Granted, many of them as pointed out will sacrifice even their soul, which is quite the devotion I agree.

But as a whole, I'd say the Black templars have full faith, whereas that of the Word Bearers is a more utilitarian one, which in my view makes the BT more zealots.

I'd recommend you look elsewhere for background because there are far better channels out there than the one you have picked.

As for the idea in question, that the Word Bearers believe their worship is science is utter tosh. The rituals, sacrifices, and prayers of the Legion are attempts to secure the gaze of the Pantheon if even for a moment and there is never a guarantee that they will notice let alone send a boon. It's not a case of sacrificing 1000 non-believers and getting a cohort of Daemons to aid you, it's a case of sacrificing 1000 non-believers and praying that the Gods do not punish you for sending them a morsel beneath their notice.
That doesn't mean that these rituals amount to nothing but to the Word Bearers it doesn't matter if the ritual doesn't produce tangible physical evidence because they believe they have honoured the Gods nonetheless. If some amongst their ranks are sent punishment by the Gods instead then they must atone for their lack of faith. If their forces are swelled by the servants of the Pantheon then they have been blessed and will fight all the harder to prove their devotion and worthiness of such a boon.

Just because one knows their gods are real, doesn't make them any less of a zealot in their worship.

I'm calling a dance off.

Nah Bro, we settle this with TIDDLYWINKS!

I think we started discussing wrong because we didn't actually point out what we call "zealot".

In my book, it is one who lives by and for an ideal and is uncompromising in its application.

From that point on, I feel like the BT are that defenition: their pursue the extermination of all who they deemed not human enough for the sake of purity, war and dying in service to their emperor for the sake of the emperor itself, mostly discarding anything else.

Whereas, as far as I understand, the faith of the Word bearers is not really felt the same way. I reiterate that I like the idea of them understanding and using chaos as a form of science in the end.

Plus their faith is flawed from the get go in that regarde I think, as it has shifted due to hate and bitter resentment, with self agrandizing and revenge plans in minds. So in my opinion the WB are not faith alone and for the sake of it as a whole.


I don't mean that they are note devoted though, just that as I read the définition of zealots, I think the BT fit more.

On that note, I have said all I wished too on the topic.


By the way you should totally resolve this issue by a round of Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker. It is mandatory.

Again, BT have lines they literally are incapable of crossing to remain true to their faith.

On the other hand, Lorgar's legion only have one rule, and that's basically "F MY DAD!"

BT are Angsty teens trying to be edgy by wearing goth clothes and listening to the Cure.

WB are the teens from Bible Camp that aren't allowed within 500' of a school.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, BT have lines they literally are incapable of crossing to remain true to their faith.

On the other hand, Lorgar's legion only have one rule, and that's basically "F MY DAD!"

BT are Angsty teens trying to be edgy by wearing goth clothes and listening to the Cure.

WB are the teens from Bible Camp that aren't allowed within 500' of a school.

IDK, seems to me like you've gotten your metaphors mixed up there.

Flip them around and I think it works better.

Angst implies Lorgar was being petulant when he went looking for a new object of worship and I'd argue that isn't a fair assessment.
The Emperor didn't send a text telling Lorgar off, he had Guilliman atomise huge parts of Lorgar's favoured world, then forced the Word Bearers and their Primarch to kneel in the ashes before assigning spies to watch them.
Lorgar genuinely believed his sons were about to be erased from history like the Lost Legions.
More than any other Primarch, Lorgar was a puppet of uncaring fathers who used him as a weapon to further their goals. Kor Phaeron did it on Colchis and the Emperor during the Crusade.

While we're on the topic, is Kor Phaeron a mortal man walking around in specially designed Terminator armor, a "like-Astartes" due to chaos and Gene therapy, or an actual Astartes? I can't tell from the books, and the BL entry seems....conflicting with the book I'm reading. Apparently he's a mortal man in specially designed terminator armor, that is REALLY in good with the chaos gods, but still, how does a mortal man do what he does and survive? Wouldn't the Chaos gods have basically eaten him?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
While we're on the topic, is Kor Phaeron a mortal man walking around in specially designed Terminator armor, a "like-Astartes" due to chaos and Gene therapy, or an actual Astartes? I can't tell from the books, and the BL entry seems....conflicting with the book I'm reading. Apparently he's a mortal man in specially designed terminator armor, that is REALLY in good with the chaos gods, but still, how does a mortal man do what he does and survive? Wouldn't the Chaos gods have basically eaten him?

Why do you say that? An Astartes has hypno-indoctrination and tons of training, so their baseline mental resistance would be higher than a regular person's, but I don't think there's anything indicating their peak is higher.

Not Peak, but standard life. You put a base level human next to a ship full of Neverborn, unless they have extreme physic power, they will be killed and their soul eaten. Kor Phaearon according to how I'm percieving him, is a base line human, who is old. Like, the foster father of Lorgar old. But he's still a baseline human, in special terminator armor. How have the warp daemons not just eaten him?

You make it sound like any human that's a servant of the dark gods gets insta-eaten by daemons the moment they appear

Kor Phaeron has served the Dark Gods since long before he found Lorgar, and only ever saw the Emperor as a 5th God in his pantheon before Monarchia was burned.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
While we're on the topic, is Kor Phaeron a mortal man walking around in specially designed Terminator armor, a "like-Astartes" due to chaos and Gene therapy, or an actual Astartes? I can't tell from the books, and the BL entry seems....conflicting with the book I'm reading. Apparently he's a mortal man in specially designed terminator armor, that is REALLY in good with the chaos gods, but still, how does a mortal man do what he does and survive? Wouldn't the Chaos gods have basically eaten him?

He's a pseudo-Astartes like Luther. He isn't the same but is still leagues ahead of a regular human and that was before he started buffing up with Chaos-flavoured protein powder. And being a mortal doesn't mean the gods destroy you or anything, it's all about willpower.
A mortal human, like Urlock Gaur, Anwakar Sek, or the Hand of Abaddon can attain a position of power where they command all levels of Chaos forces from mortals to Astartes if they have the willpower to master the powers of Chaos.

Mid-Nor Dwarves.

Okay, really- my money is on Wordbearers, as their whole thing is Deification and belief- and case in point: Lorgar wrote the Lectitio Divinatus which the Black Templars thump all the time, instead of passing out photo albums of Euphrati Keeler picts.

I do find it interesting that people think the Chapter that only became religious after the Heresy is somehow more devout in its beliefs than the Legion that held religious beliefs from the moment it was reunited with its Primarch almost 200 years prior to the Heresy.

Need that prayer-O-meter.

 Gert wrote:
I do find it interesting that people think the Chapter that only became religious after the Heresy is somehow more devout in its beliefs than the Legion that held religious beliefs from the moment it was reunited with its Primarch almost 200 years prior to the Heresy.

Length of faith =/= strength of faith.

They don't call it the Eternal Crusader for nothing.