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Andykp wrote:

You mean size of events and availability of games/events etc?

Yup. I've lived in 3 states and always been able to find a game of 40k. Old school Warhammer, Age of Sigmar, all the specialist games, Warmachine, XWing, Infinity, etc you are very lucky to find a regular play group. I even found a store in Bogota that carried 40k models and had a gaming table with terrain setup. You can go to almost any major city in the world and find someone to play 40k with. There are multiple events in my state with 100+ people within a month of each other. You won't find that with any other game, they're lucky to get 100 people at any event.

Big events outside of specific places , like spain tournaments for infinity, are not going to see 200-400 tournaments, and 100 is considered a huge event. At least in eastern europe that is how it is. And warmachine and infinity were popular here.


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Hecaton wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
All the while a player goes 5-0 with Tau by cheating through a whole major GT. All because the game is short on qualified judges and good tournament etiquette.

It's also because a lot of judges just lack the will to punish cheaters, and would rather everyone just be chill, even when it's called out. And FLG in particular is *very* slimy about not punishing cheaters.

I find elements of western tournament sceen odd at times. Big event blow up that some dude is cheating big time, and then you see people writing stuff like , yeah he did the same at X, Y and Z event , or localy he does that too. And when you ask when the dudes face and name isn't public, so he never ever ever gets to play any table top game event, it is suddenly, oh we don't do things like that and that is not a good thing to do. But cheating and letting someone cheat for years somehow is, I guess. I don't play in tournaments, I don't go in depth who from the US or Canada came to visit for a few weeks on a tour of local events and I am not much interested how the tournaments go, besides the potential blow back to how the game is going to be played localy. But even when I am ignorant about most of the stuff, I know the names of dudes who cheated big time. Even in games I do not play. If Xaos and his gf suddenly slid in trying to make it big in kill team, I know who they are and while the orgs don't always have to know it, I will tell them who they are dealing with. And at best they are going to have a judge watching them 5 out of 5 rounds.

I get the judges letting it slide for their friends better, then the knowladge about repeated cheaters being public. And I am talking realy cheaters, dudes that will bring and extra squad for a gsc army, because no one outside of GSC players knows how big the army can be. Dudes that have units/models from the dead pile suddenly turn in to actual units that score quarters etc.

Tactical Tortoise released a video last week covering the Tau cheating incident. He interviewed the FLG head judge and other judges at the event in question. It may help shed light on this topic.

Toofast wrote:

Andykp wrote:

You mean size of events and availability of games/events etc?

Yup. I've lived in 3 states and always been able to find a game of 40k. Old school Warhammer, Age of Sigmar, all the specialist games, Warmachine, XWing, Infinity, etc you are very lucky to find a regular play group. I even found a store in Bogota that carried 40k models and had a gaming table with terrain setup. You can go to almost any major city in the world and find someone to play 40k with. There are multiple events in my state with 100+ people within a month of each other. You won't find that with any other game, they're lucky to get 100 people at any event.

which is the main reason GW can do whatever they want with the game, people will play it
and the conclusion for GW is that because so many people play, it must be a really fun and almost perfect game

After watching the mr Tortise material I came to a conclusion, which I think is funny. Or at least it is funny to me. The good stuff in 10th is so good and so above the regular or bad stuff, that when a guy starts changing the profiles of weapons, and going from 3 shots to 2d6 blast is IMO a big change, people don't feel as if this was somehow out of the ordinary. The crazy stuff the good armies can do and the fun you can have them, make it possible to cheat with less popular armies much easier. If a GK players plops an extra terminator squad, maybe arriving from deep strike turn 2-3, how many people will notice that this is an extra few hundred points on the table. Votan gun on a vehicle or squad going from ap-1 to ap-2, in the face of crazy stuff the good armies can do, who will notice it unless they play Votan themselfs? Ploping down a 5 man SoB squad at 50% the cost, unless someone is deep in to the rules analitics, they probably won't notice that it is not a legal thing to do.

And I know that something like that can go for a long time. For half 8th ed, I played storm bolters as assault weapons. No one noticed, no one minded. Had zero impact on my win rates too.

Karol wrote:
Votan gun on a vehicle or squad going from ap-1 to ap-2,

Doesn't help that Votann have some guns that *were* ap-2, but are ap-1 in 10th. So opponents might be relying on their memory of how the weapon works, and don't think to double-check when they face it on the table.

Could start a new thread, but trying to get this one back on topic seemed reasonable.

I'm sort of mystified how little talk there is about the game as a game - as opposed to arguments about stuff which is tangential to the game. Maybe that's a dakka thing - but still.

We've just had another weekend of Eldar domination - winning 8 tournaments, 72% no mirror win rate. According to the Meta Monday guy this brings their total for the edition to 38. If they were to repeat that next weekend, they'll have won more tournaments than Dark Eldar (despite their 2021 dominance) did in the whole of 9th.

Why isn't this producing more outrage? I feel in the past we've seen countless threads, blogs etc screaming that GW must fix the game, its unplayable etc etc. But instead there just seems to be a slightly gnawing indifference.

Are we just accepting its terrible, and you might as well stay away until GW fixes it rather than stressing about it? This would seem a reasonably mature outlook - but not one which would have applied for however many years. Has 10th killed the "follow the competitive scene even if you don't play it" hobby?

I mean we had the month of 90 point Voidweavers, (Ork Buggyspam arguably was a similar mayfly) were seemingly every day was one too many before they were inevitably fixed. But here we are going to be about 3 months in? Where's the salt?

It's probably because most people don't play in tournaments so their personal experiences are not colored by the eldar dominance in the competitive scene.

Tyel wrote:
Could start a new thread, but trying to get this one back on topic seemed reasonable.

I'm sort of mystified how little talk there is about the game as a game - as opposed to arguments about stuff which is tangential to the game. Maybe that's a dakka thing - but still.

We've just had another weekend of Eldar domination - winning 8 tournaments, 72% no mirror win rate. According to the Meta Monday guy this brings their total for the edition to 38. If they were to repeat that next weekend, they'll have won more tournaments than Dark Eldar (despite their 2021 dominance) did in the whole of 9th.

Why isn't this producing more outrage? I feel in the past we've seen countless threads, blogs etc screaming that GW must fix the game, its unplayable etc etc. But instead there just seems to be a slightly gnawing indifference.

Are we just accepting its terrible, and you might as well stay away until GW fixes it rather than stressing about it? This would seem a reasonably mature outlook - but not one which would have applied for however many years. Has 10th killed the "follow the competitive scene even if you don't play it" hobby?

I mean we had the month of 90 point Voidweavers, (Ork Buggyspam arguably was a similar mayfly) were seemingly every day was one too many before they were inevitably fixed. But here we are going to be about 3 months in? Where's the salt?

I think there's a little bit of apathy in the sense that it's "oh, there's goes eldar ignoring the rules" again. It's also that we know they're doing a balance sweep in a couple weeks, that they've acknowledged there is a problem and it's been a wave of team events recently which lessens the visuals of them.

But I agree there is a change, it seems people are more concerned and tetchy about game design in general than meta balance. It also feels like a lot of the hyper competitive shine has gone in 10th from my observations of various online content/podcasts.

I think it's because anyone that feels outrage is banned from talking on most platforms, and here at Dakka the outrage tends to be directed at the source (bad rules design) rather than the symptom (Eldar dominance), which results in esoteric conversations that are for-or-against the existing game design rather than outrage at the facts-as-they-are.

things to consider:

a lot of people build a job around warhammer and don't want their income to decline by saying something bad about the game
a TO still talking that the game is ok and people should not be negative and just have fun simply because he wants his events to be full, or a YT channel avoiding negativity or criticism so that views stay up

sunken cost fallacy even more than before because people did not just buy into the game but bought into the promises GW made which were all false and just marketing talk
and hardly anyone wants to admit that they just spend several hundreds for an empty promise

a majority (based on social media surveys) of the people on social medias don't play the game at all, so for them any negativity about the rules does not matter and is more of a "haters want to destroy the universe/IP I love" rather than having a valid point about the game itself, also often acting like tournament players are the source of the bad game (hate the players not the game)

*Looks at the Tyranid discord*

Oh there is outrage, a lot of it.
I guess you simply need to know where to find it.

 kodos wrote:
things to consider:

a lot of people build a job around warhammer and don't want their income to decline by saying something bad about the game
a TO still talking that the game is ok and people should not be negative and just have fun simply because he wants his events to be full, or a YT channel avoiding negativity or criticism so that views stay up

sunken cost fallacy even more than before because people did not just buy into the game but bought into the promises GW made which were all false and just marketing talk
and hardly anyone wants to admit that they just spend several hundreds for an empty promise

a majority (based on social media surveys) of the people on social medias don't play the game at all, so for them any negativity about the rules does not matter and is more of a "haters want to destroy the universe/IP I love" rather than having a valid point about the game itself, also often acting like tournament players are the source of the bad game (hate the players not the game)

Actually that answers a question I asked some time ago in this thread, as to how much social media and GW sponsored people might be related to the state of the game and in what manner.

Anyone can add on this? Curious about what people think about that, if that matters at all.

Auspex tactics has a video that may be worth watching on just this discussion.
Last few days so easy to find, but I do think it follows a bit of a tone for where the community is.

But I do feel that GW is in a position where there mistakes don’t really cause immediate issues. Or issues at all.
They will often sell out on any product, even if the game is burning it won’t really affect them at this point.
I don’t think any company other than GW could release 10th and not watch it all burn down, it’s a mess, that we more or less put up with for a standard to work with.

was browsing thru reddit ~2 weeks ago and there was a topic about videos who criticize 10th and if people get bored by the "constant" negativity

there Goobertown was mentioned as being "toxic" who just hates 40k and I am not sure what to make of this
like people don't even watch those videos but just see a titel that might be negative about their favourite and therefore it must be a hater

and a lot of others have NDAs with GW were getting content out early is important to keep views, no one of those can make non-GW videos nor talk negative

In general it is a slow hobby. Most people have one or two games per month, so while annoying the current mess means around 3-6 games until the next balance "patch" for most players, and most of them aren't going to be against Eldar or GSC.

Tournament play is an entirely different issue altogether, but most players aren't tournament players.

 Tyran wrote:
In general it is a slow hobby. Most people have one or two games per month, so while annoying the current mess means around 3-6 games until the next balance "patch" for most players, and most of them aren't going to be against Eldar or GSC.

Tournament play is an entirely different issue altogether, but most players aren't tournament players.

I think this covers it really.

Tyel wrote:

We've just had another weekend of Eldar domination - winning 8 tournaments, 72% no mirror win rate. According to the Meta Monday guy this brings their total for the edition to 38. If they were to repeat that next weekend, they'll have won more tournaments than Dark Eldar (despite their 2021 dominance) did in the whole of 9th.

Why isn't this producing more outrage? I feel in the past we've seen countless threads, blogs etc screaming that GW must fix the game, its unplayable etc etc. But instead there just seems to be a slightly gnawing indifference.

Plenty of outrage online from what I can see. People are asking for Eldar to be banned or nerfed into oblivion everywhere.

There are also some things the meta mondays thread missed (or purposefully ignored to stoke more Eldar hatred?):

Tyranids were far more oppressive than Drukhari ever were. So were the clowns

Drukhari dominance had a lot of overlap with another oppresive army: admech. Our natural predator (GSC) has such a very player base, limiting their effect on the meta

Drukhari season was during covid, so they had far fewer tournaments to win. Their numbers would have been a lot higher if covid had never happened

Can''t quote for the life of me but "Eldar rants are the best rants", someone said lastly

Most people are fully aware that Eldar are wildly out of line and the emergency errata wasn't sufficient. There's not much anyone can actually do about it right now so there's not much value in being mad when we know GW is aware.

I'd say GW trained people enough to react with a: "What did you expect, this is the Index phase, it's always a mess! Remember Big bird, malefic lords and razorwing flock? We'll just have to wait and see for Codizes!"

Tyel wrote:
I'm sort of mystified how little talk there is about the game as a game - as opposed to arguments about stuff which is tangential to the game.

People are over-thinking this one when there's a very simple answer: there's nothing left to talk about. The facts are all obvious and indisputable, GW has acknowledged awareness of the problem, and the players have thoroughly analyzed every piece of it. And at some point endless exchanges of " GW", "yeah those idiots", etc, with nobody defending GW stop being interesting.

What "GW is aware" means:

 Tyran wrote:
In general it is a slow hobby. Most people have one or two games per month, so while annoying the current mess means around 3-6 games until the next balance "patch" for most players, and most of them aren't going to be against Eldar or GSC.

Tournament play is an entirely different issue altogether, but most players aren't tournament players.

Yeah that is if you play at home, with small group of people as a 40+ year old, that is doing sofisticated things. At stores, you soon find out that the bad armies are doing bad against ALL armies, it is hard to avoid easy to pick up and popular armies, and that the difference between tournament and non tournament lists is often skin deep. And then having 4 games per months, and being blown off the table in every one makes for a very bad game. It becomes even worse, when you realise that most of the top armies aren't getting and update in the next 6 months, neither does your own army. Then it really becomes an enjoyable thing. And from a student perspective, summer is the time where you can put in 1-2 games per day, it is The Time to play w40k, and for some people GW f'ed it up. Being told that maybe GW will fix the problems, when past editions show you that GW does not have a good record doing that, does not help. It helps even less when people playing the good and fun armies are telling you to chill and "wait and see".

I mean, the discussion should ramp up, not down, the longer the state of affairs lasts. People should be discussing other ways to play the game, or developing a community ruleset, or even just discussing letting 10th be in the rear view mirror.

But I think there is a general "don't be negative" attitude on a lot of platforms, and some of the others have awkward censorship applied...

....and then there is the nerd tendency to "double down". I have a hunch that when the game is actually bad, certain personalities become extremely *positive*, and when the game is going well, they're more able to be balanced/negative.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean, the discussion should ramp up, not down, the longer the state of affairs lasts. People should be discussing other ways to play the game, or developing a community ruleset, or even just discussing letting 10th be in the rear view mirror.

But I think there is a general "don't be negative" attitude on a lot of platforms, and some of the others have awkward censorship applied...

....and then there is the nerd tendency to "double down". I have a hunch that when the game is actually bad, certain personalities become extremely *positive*, and when the game is going well, they're more able to be balanced/negative.

A lot of people see the game through the filter of their own game experiences. People can very readily defend a games balance state when they are winning with their army(ies). Similarly many will blame the game balance if they are losing. It should be important to note that some people also fixate on things, so if they win 10 matches and lose 2 they fixate on the losses; same also for wins; some people can fixate on the 2 wins they got and overlook the 10 losses they had.


Another aspect is that wargaming has no real skill measuring capacity outside of winning major tournaments which is basically a very limited market for people it applies too. The vast majority of players have no real capacity to measure their performance as a player. As such its very easy for people to both get an inflated and deflated perception of their game talent.

This can then mess with balance a lot because a person might lose a lot of games with their army and blame balance, when in reality they are simply less skilled than their opponent(s). And the reverse is also true, someone can win loads of matches and assume that the game balance is good or too good for their army; but in reality its that they are simply much better players than their opponents.



This is oft why its hard to get hard data for game balance because people pick up false information and interpretations of their own experiences all the time. Heck even in video games you get the same thing; I've seen people cry wolf that an AI is cheating and getting free armies and units in strategy games; only for the conversation to reveal that its actually that they player doesn't know some fundamental game mechanics (this can be as simple as not knowing how fog-of-war works; or hidden armies or even how to work their game economy)




Ontop of all that there are those who DO understand the game state and their own skill, but will still defend a "broken" element of game balance because they see it as part of the game. Identifying how to win by using the cheesy army is a "game skill" for them and they play into it; build that army and want that "I win" button. They want to know "the best army to build to win". They don't want a challenge in finding it; nor the scary potential that every army (well build) will have an equal footing. This kind of mindset tends to completely overlook that, at the competitive end (where those pepole often are), if there is a very broken force, then everyone will end up competing with it so they end up right back at the "every army is equal" situation anyway.

But what is there to discuss? Aeldari are warping the Meta. They are too good at all the things you need to do to win missions. They need a good strong beating with the nerfbat while the below 45% factions all need a good boost.

Aeldari: Nerf the Detachment ability to 1 re-reoll to Hit or Wound per unit. 20% across the board points increase. Think that will be enough?

20% across the board points increase? What a sledgehammer unthinking and typically GW approach that would be.

This is why I hate what tournament gaming has done to 40k. Because a group of chuckleheads abused a specific combination of rules, units that I have (like a Wraithknight that's a HTH fighter) will suffer as a result, when that unit wasn't the problem in the first place.

They never fix the problem. They massively over-react with kneejerk and outright stupid changes (like the suggested across-the-board points rise).

Things like the Wraithknight and Yncarne will get nerfed in September. Other stuff will likely get hit as well such as the Nightspinner and Fire Prism.

A lot of folks know this is coming.

What is dirty, in my mind, is GW advertising to buy a Wraithknight when they know they are going to nerf it.

The real question will be when in September.

 alextroy wrote:
But what is there to discuss? Aeldari are warping the Meta. They are too good at all the things you need to do to win missions. They need a good strong beating with the nerfbat while the below 45% factions all need a good boost.

Aeldari: Nerf the Detachment ability to 1 re-reoll to Hit or Wound per unit. 20% across the board points increase. Think that will be enough?

What do you have against my poor Rangers??