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It's not so much changing of stats but how the game functions. Eg 10th edition has removed the psychic phase from the game. There's no real "reason" for this save that its different to earlier editions of the game.

GW basically just juggles around how the game mechanically works at its core each edition. IT generates a "need" to rebuy all the material to keep up which is why GW likes it (nice guaranteed 3 year profit boost); but on the flipside it means that despite being a 30 year old game; the rules are only 3 years old.

So GW's overall game quality never improves because the changes are more at random. Removing the psychic phase isn't the result of 27 years of major problems being resolved by its removal as part of a calculated measure; its just done because they can.

 Overread wrote:
It's not so much changing of stats but how the game functions. Eg 10th edition has removed the psychic phase from the game. There's no real "reason" for this save that its different to earlier editions of the game.

GW basically just juggles around how the game mechanically works at its core each edition. IT generates a "need" to rebuy all the material to keep up which is why GW likes it (nice guaranteed 3 year profit boost); but on the flipside it means that despite being a 30 year old game; the rules are only 3 years old.

So GW's overall game quality never improves because the changes are more at random. Removing the psychic phase isn't the result of 27 years of major problems being resolved by its removal as part of a calculated measure; its just done because they can.

There was a very common complaint that some armies were bored/unable to compete/felt neglected due to little to no psychic phase presence (tau, DE, sisters, WE, necrons).

Dudeface wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's not so much changing of stats but how the game functions. Eg 10th edition has removed the psychic phase from the game. There's no real "reason" for this save that its different to earlier editions of the game.

GW basically just juggles around how the game mechanically works at its core each edition. IT generates a "need" to rebuy all the material to keep up which is why GW likes it (nice guaranteed 3 year profit boost); but on the flipside it means that despite being a 30 year old game; the rules are only 3 years old.

So GW's overall game quality never improves because the changes are more at random. Removing the psychic phase isn't the result of 27 years of major problems being resolved by its removal as part of a calculated measure; its just done because they can.

There was a very common complaint that some armies were bored/unable to compete/felt neglected due to little to no psychic phase presence (tau, DE, sisters, WE, necrons).

They could have expanded it to a command phase, there is plenty in those army’s that could use a dedicated phase to clean things up.

Apple fox wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's not so much changing of stats but how the game functions. Eg 10th edition has removed the psychic phase from the game. There's no real "reason" for this save that its different to earlier editions of the game.

GW basically just juggles around how the game mechanically works at its core each edition. IT generates a "need" to rebuy all the material to keep up which is why GW likes it (nice guaranteed 3 year profit boost); but on the flipside it means that despite being a 30 year old game; the rules are only 3 years old.

So GW's overall game quality never improves because the changes are more at random. Removing the psychic phase isn't the result of 27 years of major problems being resolved by its removal as part of a calculated measure; its just done because they can.

There was a very common complaint that some armies were bored/unable to compete/felt neglected due to little to no psychic phase presence (tau, DE, sisters, WE, necrons).

They could have expanded it to a command phase, there is plenty in those army’s that could use a dedicated phase to clean things up.

You'd still be forced to change the mechanic not to exclude a bunch of factions, irrespective of the "when".

Dudeface wrote:
There was a very common complaint that some armies were bored/unable to compete/felt neglected due to little to no psychic phase presence (tau, DE, sisters, WE, necrons).

for the same reason you could remove a dedicated melee phase and just put the stuff into the movement phase if it happens

"not everyone has something to do in that phase" does not link to "remove the phase and put the stuff that was done there into other phases" as the only solution

so we still have factions that do nothing with physic powers, this was not improved, and that those that do nothing can just skip the phase, well you don't need to act in the opponent's phase anyway so this is not a problem

its ok, 11th will bring the Psychic phase back again

leopard wrote:
its ok, 11th will bring the Psychic phase back again

Yeah but then in 12th edition they'll introduce the Null phase for non psychic factions to have a phase

 Overread wrote:

leopard wrote:
its ok, 11th will bring the Psychic phase back again

Yeah but then in 12th edition they'll introduce the Null phase for non psychic factions to have a phase

Null phase, where nothing happens, but marines can avoid it on a 2+, with a re-roll

Dudeface wrote:

There was a very common complaint that some armies were bored/unable to compete/felt neglected due to little to no psychic phase presence (tau, DE, sisters, WE, necrons).

And that's a valid complaint... But one that is better resolved by giving those factions something worthwhile to do in that phase rather than by rewriting the core rules, IMO.

Again it comes down to learning the wrong lessons.

There was too much psychic bloat in 9th? Marines had 100-ish powers, many of the psychic races had a whole lot of powers, and there was a whole phase of the game that certain armies just didn't get to participate in other than rolling the occasional saving throw.

GW's solution? Gut psychic powers so much that the "Psyker" or "Psychic" tag is actually only ever a negative, so that there's no choice in psychic powers, and some powers don't even function unless the character is leading a unit (which is also a problem with the character rules in 10th - characters that don't lead units, unless they are designed that way, might as well not exist).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again it comes down to learning the wrong lessons.

There was too much psychic bloat in 9th? Marines had 100-ish powers, many of the psychic races had a whole lot of powers, and there was a whole phase of the game that certain armies just didn't get to participate in other than rolling the occasional saving throw.

GW's solution? Gut psychic powers so much that the "Psyker" or "Psychic" tag is actually only ever a negative, so that there's no choice in psychic powers, and some powers don't even function unless the character is leading a unit (which is also a problem with the character rules in 10th - characters that don't lead units, unless they are designed that way, might as well not exist).

This goes back to GW's completely incoherent design process. It seems pretty clear to me that in order to juice sales, GW offers new rules and units with special powers, but doesn't really have a par in mind, so you get wild power differentials.

That is to say, if a class of unit is created that gets its own phase, all lists should have something that can participate. The suggestion that it could be a "command" phase so non-psyker units can play makes sense.

But that's now how GW rolls, and just from reading about all the things that are now in the game is a huge deterrent to me even thinking about getting current. I followed a link to someone doing a battle report, and did not understand anything that was happening. It's new rules with some of the same figures.

 tauist wrote:
I dont like the churn, especially since 10th edition might be the last edition to support firstborn (via Legends).

I'm just glad I'd already decided to retire my firstborn Ultramarines. Out of 34 games of 9th edition I only played them twice and they lost both times. They'd already become uncompetitive. 10th edition should have been the edition to squat them, rather than releasing index cards for them then discontinuing the models a few weeks later. That made no sense at all. Mind you, not just releasing truescale marines in 8th edition in the first place instead of all this Primaris made no sense at all. All it led to was codex bloat, incompatible units and lots of false reassurance that Primaris won't be replacing firtsborn. I suspect that by 11th edition there will just be Primaris truescale marines, and the Primaris designation will be dropped.

 Bosskelot wrote:
I was actually super ready for 8th to end because it was a giant mess but 9th could have and should have stayed around for much longer.

I agree that 8th edition was bloated by the end, and that 9th edition was in a good place, but I did find the 9th edition rules pretty complex, so I can see why GW decided to simplify 10th edition. I've enjoyed the games of 10th edition I've played so far, but I'll need to play a few more (and use all of my armies) to see if i prefer it to 9th edition.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
the "Psyker" or "Psychic" tag is actually only ever a negative

That's not the case for TSons. There are some really useful buffs for PSYCHIC weapons (and also a strat to make bolt weapons PSYCHIC to use with those buffs).

It feels like the change in 7th-8th was good, even if 8th had significant issues.

The change in 9th was 8.5, a refined edition that started off strong had a VERY rocky middle with OP armies taking months to balance, and ended with what I consider to be the most balanced 40k has ever been at any point in its history.

I'd call 10th churn. The bulk of these changes did not require that we start from scratch. This should have been 9.5, like 9th was 8.5. We could have gone to Index hammer where the Indices were the 9th edition codices with USRs and the various quality of life changes (weapons broken out like in Kill Team, Battleshock, OC, etc) applied. Strip out all but six stratagems core to the faction. Streamline the army/faction rules like 10th did (but don't arbitrarily limit them to 1 then give Tyranids 2 right out the gate). Stream line allied units like 10th did. Assign leader rules to characters and adjust abilities. Keep the removal of the psychic phase, make anything that did mortals a shooting attack like in 10th, buffs go to command phase. What a great change that was by the way, no joke. Things that don't interact with your opponent (mortals) are generally bad.

But no, we had to churn it and make everyone (including and especially the writers!) start from scratch.

We gave up the best balance this game has ever had for this mess, it didn't have to be this way at all, and its increasingly tempting to just put out a call for folks who want to play modified 9th edition locally. You can capture the vehicle/monster changes by making those things bracket only at the lowest bracket and have -1 to wound until bracketing. Easy, done, didn't need to completely screw up the balance.

The only bonus is GW might have started to realise that lots of expansion books aren't popular. I got a feeling that come the end of 9th they were starting to feel that bit of feedback.

New core rules and codex is fine; but once you start having to buy multiple expansion books to run 1 army and your opponent has several more to run theirs; suddenly the game is losing its fun because of all the book-keeping.

It also undermines GW's FAQ/Errata production because that adds even more documentation on top which gets even more confusing because each publication gets its own (which they should).


we can just hope GW realises the solution is less books rather than "ok lets keep making books but also nudge everyone to use the App to make hte game work"

Dudeface 811321 11583235 wrote:

There was a very common complaint that some armies were bored/unable to compete/felt neglected due to little to no psychic phase presence (tau, DE, sisters, WE, necrons).

and the fix to this was not giving them something instead, but rather removing stuff from psychic heavy armies. Or to be more precise from one army, because someone at the studio decided that 1ksons without a psychic phase would be wack, so he just designed the army to have a psychic phase, even if there isn't one in the core rules.
Right now having a psychic trait on anything, is a way to give buffs to your enemy. It is a litteral nerf trait, that exist to make an army worse.

I got started with 3rd. Played actively for the entire edition. I practically lived at DakkaDakka. I didn't mind 4th so much because the changes to vehicles and combat had already been added at the end of 3rd. I played a few hundred games of 4th.
When 5th dropped and changed the rules of terrain to true line of sight, all the terrain at my flgs became useless. I quit 40k completely after 1 game and didn't return until the very tail end of 7th because I happened to have an Eldar army that was all the rage (wave serpents and scatterbikes). That lasted about 3 games before no one wanted to play against it any more.
By the time 8th dropped a few friends FINALLY got into 40k but by then I just didn't care.
I played 3 games of 9th. Worst version of 40k ever. I honestly can't understand how anyone could enjoy it. I just assume the people that like it all started after 5th and probably learned of 40k through videogames (that's not a dig at anyone, just the way it seems to me).
10th is kind of what I've been waiting for (a return to 3rd edition) but it's missed the mark almost entirely.
At this point I'm done. I'm trying to get rid of all my Warhammer stuff. I just stopped caring on every level. I don't like the game, I don't like the direction GW has been going, I don't like the culture around the hobby anymore.
Where once upon a time Warhammer was the coolest thing ever to me, it's now become a deep regret and it feels like I've wasted 25 years of my life.

 Overread wrote:
The only bonus is GW might have started to realise that lots of expansion books aren't popular. I got a feeling that come the end of 9th they were starting to feel that bit of feedback.

New core rules and codex is fine; but once you start having to buy multiple expansion books to run 1 army and your opponent has several more to run theirs; suddenly the game is losing its fun because of all the book-keeping.

It also undermines GW's FAQ/Errata production because that adds even more documentation on top which gets even more confusing because each publication gets its own (which they should).


we can just hope GW realises the solution is less books rather than "ok lets keep making books but also nudge everyone to use the App to make hte game work"

What gives you the idea that 10th ed is not going to have codex, supplements, sesonal rules packs etc? They are not doing it for AoS, and w40k and AoS enchange core rule ideas, when ever an edition drops. There is already take that, because of the unbalances faction "objectives" cause in AoS, next year edition is going to have the same card system w40k has now. And the rumors aren't coming from "guy on the internet", but named people who know playtesters and AoS designers, who themselfs were one of either at some point etc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again it comes down to learning the wrong lessons.

There was too much psychic bloat in 9th? Marines had 100-ish powers, many of the psychic races had a whole lot of powers, and there was a whole phase of the game that certain armies just didn't get to participate in other than rolling the occasional saving throw.

GW's solution? Gut psychic powers so much that the "Psyker" or "Psychic" tag is actually only ever a negative, so that there's no choice in psychic powers, and some powers don't even function unless the character is leading a unit (which is also a problem with the character rules in 10th - characters that don't lead units, unless they are designed that way, might as well not exist).

And what makes it even more absurd is that we already did this same dance with the change from 2nd to 3rd edition, where Space Marine Librarians (as perhaps the most egrarious example) went from having access to a wide range of varied abilities to having an in-built heavy bolter. Everybody hated it, and they gradually worked proper psychic powers back into the game as a result. So they're not just learning the wrong lessons, they're also ignoring that they already learnt the right lesson years ago...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
The only bonus is GW might have started to realise that lots of expansion books aren't popular. I got a feeling that come the end of 9th they were starting to feel that bit of feedback.

New core rules and codex is fine; but once you start having to buy multiple expansion books to run 1 army and your opponent has several more to run theirs; suddenly the game is losing its fun because of all the book-keeping.

I feel like this is another of those 'wrong lesson' things, though, although on this one I might be skewed by personal preference. I'm all for expansion books... but they should be optional material for playing out specific campaigns and the like, rather than required to run an army.

Although I'll admit that my interest in buying optional books also decreases the more compulsory books there are to buy first.

 insaniak wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again it comes down to learning the wrong lessons.

There was too much psychic bloat in 9th? Marines had 100-ish powers, many of the psychic races had a whole lot of powers, and there was a whole phase of the game that certain armies just didn't get to participate in other than rolling the occasional saving throw.

GW's solution? Gut psychic powers so much that the "Psyker" or "Psychic" tag is actually only ever a negative, so that there's no choice in psychic powers, and some powers don't even function unless the character is leading a unit (which is also a problem with the character rules in 10th - characters that don't lead units, unless they are designed that way, might as well not exist).

And what makes it even more absurd is that we already did this same dance with the change from 2nd to 3rd edition, where Space Marine Librarians (as perhaps the most egrarious example) went from having access to a wide range of varied abilities to having an in-built heavy bolter. Everybody hated it, and they gradually worked proper psychic powers back into the game as a result. So they're not just learning the wrong lessons, they're also ignoring that they already learnt the right lesson years ago...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
The only bonus is GW might have started to realise that lots of expansion books aren't popular. I got a feeling that come the end of 9th they were starting to feel that bit of feedback.

New core rules and codex is fine; but once you start having to buy multiple expansion books to run 1 army and your opponent has several more to run theirs; suddenly the game is losing its fun because of all the book-keeping.

I feel like this is another of those 'wrong lesson' things, though, although on this one I might be skewed by personal preference. I'm all for expansion books... but they should be optional material for playing out specific campaigns and the like, rather than required to run an army.

Although I'll admit that my interest in buying optional books also decreases the more compulsory books there are to buy first.

I for one love it when my Psyker casts "Slugga Pistol but with extra AP"

 insaniak wrote:
And what makes it even more absurd is that we already did this same dance with the change from 2nd to 3rd edition, where Space Marine Librarians (as perhaps the most egrarious example) went from having access to a wide range of varied abilities to having an in-built heavy bolter. Everybody hated it, and they gradually worked proper psychic powers back into the game as a result. So they're not just learning the wrong lessons, they're also ignoring that they already learnt the right lesson years ago...

Which brings us back to the whole "they don't iterate" issue.

I'll say it again: 40ks core rules should be like BattleTech. So refined and buffed to a mirror finish that the changes over the years are minimal. Now I fully acknowledge that BTech, from a unit perspective, is far simpler than 40k - there are only two "factions", and even then they all pretty much have the exact same weapons and equipment, just one side has better versions of them - so there is a lot more going on in 40k as Tyranids don't have any common weaponry/equipment that they share with Eldar or Orks or Knights, for example.

But even so, the constant need to reinvent the wheel every time they re-do something creates a maddening level of unnecessary change. A cynic might even go so far as to say that it's intentional, but Hanlon's Razor says otherwise.

 vict0988 wrote:
Anyone care to educate me on what things changed for the sake of change? It seems like a recurring criticism. Is it the PL thing which led to a lot of stat changes to equalise the value of weapons? Is it stuff like lowering the range of Immortal weapons 6"? I see weapon ranges being too long for the size of the table criticized every once in a while, although I can see how not having that problem in 9th would make any such reductions feel dumb and random. There must be at least 3 other important things right? Fly I certainly can see, but what else is totally random?

I don't see it as change for the sake of change, I see more that GW has several ideas/gimmicks/whatever you want to call them - and they usually just can't make them work, but they keep trying. I suspect that drives edition churn as much as anything else.

How do you feel about edition churn?

Annoyed. well i was until i decided to step off and go back to playing an older edition of 40K.

I understand the economic reasons why GW is addicted to the churn. but i also know it is unnecessary.

You could keep a wargame with the same basic rule set with only minor tweaks without invalidating any faction or model. BattleTech is a shining example of this. the core rules are mostly unchanged in the same span of time GW has gone through 10 editions of 40K. all the models from every era/setting are still useable and the miniature line is just as massive. to address the "variety" or "growth" there is an entire sub set of official rules that are "optional" for players to use at their own discretion. as well as a set of variations of the game such as alpha strike for a specialist games style approach to the system.

The great thing about playing an older edition of 40K is that the game is both fun and there is no concern over GW changing things, invalidating rules or models or entire armies.

3rd edition was ages ago, I think it's safe to say any lessons learned would be forgotten in most industries. All the psychic powers were removed to reduce bloat because the community complained tonnes about bloat and imbalanced options. The level of criticism towards GW's disciplines was insane IMO, the removal is the deserved punishment.

People cheered when they got another 6 OP Stratagems in 8th/9th as well, that doesn't mean removing most Strats wasn't the right option. GW can always release a psychic supplement with a GT pack.

 vict0988 wrote:
3rd edition was ages ago, I think it's safe to say any lessons learned would be forgotten in most industries. All the psychic powers were removed to reduce bloat because the community complained tonnes about bloat and imbalanced options. The level of criticism towards GW's disciplines was insane IMO, the removal is the deserved punishment.

People cheered when they got another 6 OP Stratagems in 8th/9th as well, that doesn't mean removing most Strats wasn't the right option. GW can always release a psychic supplement with a GT pack.

The players shouldn’t be punished for bad rules, GW should just learn to do better.

I think it's natural for there to be a lot of salt about the latest edition, especially when it's just landed. Psychic and battleshock are handled differently for sure, but I wouldn't say worse. The rules organisation is definitely better than 9th though - with a few index cards I can actually find the rules for my units during a game without cross-referencing several books and my notes on which of the 50-odd stratagems are relevant.

When I played TSons in 9th edition my opponent spent ages waiting for me to complete the psychic phase so I can see why GW wants to try something different. As for GK, I think the focus on teleporting rather than psychic is fun. They still have psychic too of course. I've not yet played my Chaos Knights but I'm disappointed that their army and detachment rule is all battleshock-focused. I'll see how it plays before making further comment, but it seems like it's not as strong as other factions.

Apple fox wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
3rd edition was ages ago, I think it's safe to say any lessons learned would be forgotten in most industries. All the psychic powers were removed to reduce bloat because the community complained tonnes about bloat and imbalanced options. The level of criticism towards GW's disciplines was insane IMO, the removal is the deserved punishment.

People cheered when they got another 6 OP Stratagems in 8th/9th as well, that doesn't mean removing most Strats wasn't the right option. GW can always release a psychic supplement with a GT pack.

The players shouldn’t be punished for bad rules, GW should just learn to do better.

And if the bad rules are a result of the comnunity noise?

 vict0988 wrote:
3rd edition was ages ago, I think it's safe to say any lessons learned would be forgotten in most industries. All the psychic powers were removed to reduce bloat because the community complained tonnes about bloat and imbalanced options. The level of criticism towards GW's disciplines was insane IMO, the removal is the deserved punishment.

People cheered when they got another 6 OP Stratagems in 8th/9th as well, that doesn't mean removing most Strats wasn't the right option. GW can always release a psychic supplement with a GT pack.

Going back to the simple, but essential truth that while the comapany remains, staff change and removing or moving one or two key executives can totally shift the focus in one way or another. It would be interesting to have a summary of GW's personnel over the years.

Thing is this isn't griping just about the newest edition changes; its about the speed of changes. New editions of core rules every 3 years is fast and yet carries an inherent problem that so long as each new edition is basically a new game; all the balance improvements, all the refinements, all the tweaks and feedback from the previous game - is all thrown out the window.

It creates an endless cycle of "new game, new issues". Yes there are good things that come along with each edition, but again because each new edition is a rebuild the good things get left out too.

Dudeface wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
3rd edition was ages ago, I think it's safe to say any lessons learned would be forgotten in most industries. All the psychic powers were removed to reduce bloat because the community complained tonnes about bloat and imbalanced options. The level of criticism towards GW's disciplines was insane IMO, the removal is the deserved punishment.

People cheered when they got another 6 OP Stratagems in 8th/9th as well, that doesn't mean removing most Strats wasn't the right option. GW can always release a psychic supplement with a GT pack.

The players shouldn’t be punished for bad rules, GW should just learn to do better.

And if the bad rules are a result of the comnunity noise?

Then hire competent management to sort through the noise, it’s their Job at a certain point they should be able to do it.

A lot of the noise is entirely reflective of how bad the rules are, they put out bad rules. Then get bad feedback as players work through the mess.

What was the signal about psychic powers that got lost in the noise?