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In fact iirc in waaagh da orks there was even an actual family system in the ork society but this for once is no longer cannon, as far as I am aware.

The mobs are only the slightest reminder of this in my opinion although they arguably inherited the role of foremost social groups.

Voss wrote:
Its weird that they even need a currency or economy.

If your ladz don't eat, they can't fight. If they don't have gunz, they can't fight. Orks don't do much that isn't fighting, so... yeah.

Having 'em be armed and fed is part of being a boss, and that's why you're raiding and getting grots and humies to make stuff, isn't it?

I'm sort of in two minds about Teef, tbh. A lot of the lore suggests orks also barter quite a bit, though obviously that wouldn't create ideal conditions for trade - how exactly does one decide how many pints of fungus beer a snazzwagon should cost, for instance? In this scenario, a commodity that can be universally used to represent the prices of other commodities is quite handy in that circumstance.

That said, if food and the basics aren't really an issue for orks and they tend to scrounge/improvise a lot of their weaponry, then presumably the need to supply all your needs through purchasing stuff you yourself don't make doesn't apply, in which case ork Teef don't really occupy the same niche that currencies we're familiar with do.

I guess, ultimately, it comes down to whether the fluff indicates that individual orks are largely self-sufficient (albeit in a barebones way, like the peasants of olde), or whether they're more like modern societies, where most everything you need to have to buy but the quality of that stuff tends to be higher.

As for them having an economy in general, that's not as hard to wrap your head around. All an economy is, when you get down to it, is the way society organises the production and distribution of the stuff people want/need. Any sufficiently large population's going to develop certain forms of economic activity in order to meet its needs, and I guess the orks are no exception given the lore and this thread!

Orks have an appreciation of luxury though.

A shiny shoota with extra loud bits is valued more than a standard shoota.

A buggy with a dead nice red paint job is valued more than a buggy without a red paint job, indeed a red paint job can be an after-market mod, increasing its value.

There is still barter “trade you this ‘Umie weapon for that Buggy”, but Teef provide a baseline of value. So if the capture weapon is a functioning Battle Cannon, that would be widely agreed to be worth in the region of X Teef. The buggy might also have a commonly accepted value of around Y Teef.

It’s worth noting coinage and thus fiat currency is the hallmark of actual civilisation. An economic base which helps rationalise the value of all other items.

Wiki wrote: The Mesopotamian civilization developed a large-scale economy based on commodity money. The shekel was the unit of weight and currency, first recorded c. 3000 BC,[dubious – discuss] which was nominally equivalent to a specific weight of barley that was the preexisting and parallel form of currency.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks have an appreciation of luxury though.

A shiny shoota with extra loud bits is valued more than a standard shoota.

A buggy with a dead nice red paint job is valued more than a buggy without a red paint job, indeed a red paint job can be an after-market mod, increasing its value.

There is still barter “trade you this ‘Umie weapon for that Buggy”, but Teef provide a baseline of value. So if the capture weapon is a functioning Battle Cannon, that would be widely agreed to be worth in the region of X Teef. The buggy might also have a commonly accepted value of around Y Teef.

It’s worth noting coinage and thus fiat currency is the hallmark of actual civilisation. An economic base which helps rationalise the value of all other items.

Wiki wrote: The Mesopotamian civilization developed a large-scale economy based on commodity money. The shekel was the unit of weight and currency, first recorded c. 3000 BC,[dubious – discuss] which was nominally equivalent to a specific weight of barley that was the preexisting and parallel form of currency.

Sure, and it's clear that orks love a bit of flash - who amongst us doesn't, I suppose?

I guess what I'm thinking is whether or not ork society is dominated by commodity production, or whether large bits of it are arguably based on production for direct consumption rather than exchange. As you say, virtually every society in the real world develops coinage at a certain point because there's always scope for a bit of merchant-work given a certain level of productive activity, but there's a difference between coinage being used "at the margins" in order to sell/buy stuff produced in surplus or luxuries, and it being the primary lubricant in the economy as it is today.

It's interesting to consider that orks as written may really only need Teef for luxuries and not the basics - which would be quite fitting, really, as again a lot of ork kultur places a huge emphasis on showing off how 'ard and great you are!

YeeeMako wrote:

That said, if food and the basics aren't really an issue for orks and they tend to scrounge/improvise a lot of their weaponry, then presumably the need to supply all your needs through purchasing stuff you yourself don't make doesn't apply, in which case ork Teef don't really occupy the same niche that currencies we're familiar with do.

I guess, ultimately, it comes down to whether the fluff indicates that individual orks are largely self-sufficient (albeit in a barebones way, like the peasants of olde), or whether they're more like modern societies, where most everything you need to have to buy but the quality of that stuff tends to be higher.

Orks have a couple of slave castes (grots and snotlings) to do the majority of economic production and activity. It is quite likely that orks largely just get waited on by the minions swarming around them for basic needs. These underlings (particularly grots) have a vested interest in keeping their masters happy, because they are on the menu themselves if they underperform!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

It’s worth noting coinage and thus fiat currency is the hallmark of actual civilisation. An economic base which helps rationalise the value of all other items.

I think this is a very bold statement. Gift economies also function well in complex societies.

Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.

From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).

There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.

From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).

There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.

Apropos of nothing but I'm having the time of my life in this thread. Never has a bit of idle chatter about little plastic fellas felt so much like them Greek fellas debating out the mysteries of the universe

But as to this, I think Haighus has given us the solution to this above - it's true, I recall some fluff basically noting that most Boyz are pretty lazy when not actually fighting, but having large slave-classes to do all the work for you means that they don't really *have* to be energetic so long as you give the grotz a good thumpin' every now and again to show 'em who's boss.

In that sense, I guess orks are not self-reliant in the sense of providing everything they need themselves, nor do they work like peasants - as a family or communal unit to produce things that largely get consumed directly by said unit - but neither are they consuming entirely via commodity production either. Instead they just bully the grotz into making the basic stuff for them (occasionally eating the grotz, depending on) and anything more luxurious they trade for using Teef or very occasionally through bartering.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.

From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).

There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.

The logical conclusion is therefore that meks have a worse pain tolerance to compensate their increased dexterity. Would go some way to explaining why they respond to be beaten back into line by da boss...


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 YeeeMako wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.

From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).

There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.

Apropos of nothing but I'm having the time of my life in this thread. Never has a bit of idle chatter about little plastic fellas felt so much like them Greek fellas debating out the mysteries of the universe

But as to this, I think Haighus has given us the solution to this above - it's true, I recall some fluff basically noting that most Boyz are pretty lazy when not actually fighting, but having large slave-classes to do all the work for you means that they don't really *have* to be energetic so long as you give the grotz a good thumpin' every now and again to show 'em who's boss.

In that sense, I guess orks are not self-reliant in the sense of providing everything they need themselves, nor do they work like peasants - as a family or communal unit to produce things that largely get consumed directly by said unit - but neither are they consuming entirely via commodity production either. Instead they just bully the grotz into making the basic stuff for them (occasionally eating the grotz, depending on) and anything more luxurious they trade for using Teef or very occasionally through bartering.

Hmm... in a way, Ork society is a bit like classical Spartan society. A comparitively-small warlike upper class that has the leisure time to devote to fighting, served by an abundant slave caste that does all the work to afford that leisure time for the upper class.

Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.

Meks, like other Oddboyz, are something of a protected class.

Even the most obtuse Warboss can appreciate the need for their boys to be well armed. And that means having Meks around.

As such, they’re described as having a bit more leeway, with their more eccentric efforts being seen as a good laugh (provided it happens to someone else). Provided whatever the Boss ordered more-or-less does what was promised? You’re pretty safe, even if his second in command was given some unexpected and highly experimental rocket legs you didn’t exactly explain how to safely operate.

The Meks need everyone else to bring them scrap and pay for their wares. Everyone else needs the Meks to keep the warband fighting. As such, they don’t see quite the same day to day personal violence as non-Oddboyz.

Hence a Big Mek is rarely a Warboss, but can be noticeably bigger than other Meks.

The usual punishment is exile, rather than death. Probably after a good kicking though.

Runtherdz ensure the overall running of Ork society by keeping the runts in line.

Doks do the patching up and help keep everyone more or less healthy.

Weird Boyz are actively shunned, because you’re only a moment over excitement away from others catching a nasty case of exploding head.

And so they all have their “except me” type cards which can shelter them from a certain amount of grief. Besides, catch a Mek or Painboy doing something naughty, and you can probably persuade a favour or what have you in return for not saying anything.

 Haighus wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.

From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).

There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.

The logical conclusion is therefore that meks have a worse pain tolerance to compensate their increased dexterity. Would go some way to explaining why they respond to be beaten back into line by da boss...

Nothing is said about this possibility as far as I am aware, but, it is true of the gretchins: hence why they can craft basic items, as they nonetheless lack true intelligence over more acute cunning.

So while it's not stated anywhere, this is a pretty reasonable leap of logic to me.

Some more interesting snippets from the Waaagh! Ghazghull supplement.

Firstly, this one is regarding Ghazghull's response to hit-and-run attacks from a Bad Moon Warlord whilst still on his homeworld of Urk, a backwater Ork world (so not much above feral Orks until after the events of this battle when Ghaz unified the world into a Waaagh!). Ghaz is obviously exceptionally gifted on a strategic and tactical level, but even the Bad Moons here are displaying a grasp of decent tactics beyond simply charging the enemy (hit-and-run against a superior-but-less-mobile enemy) and sufficient awareness of logistics to keep refuelling their battlewagons at supply dumps. At least until Ghaz targeted them and blew them up:


This next one is a solid example of enslaving humans and coopting human factories to produce Ork war materiel. In this case, Hive Volcanus in the Second War for Armageddon:


Thirdly, the last snippet relates to the discussion about Ork population growth and the resources that is based upon. Whilst I stand by my earlier point that Orkoid ecosystems can probably derive energy and biomass from a great variety of sources likely including photosynthesis, I think the following quote strongly suggests Orkoid ecosystems can also grow with energy from the Warp itself. I cannot see what else is likely to explain a population boom upon an ancient, lifeless space hulk that otherwise would not provide significant biomass. Orks are an intrinsically psychic race so this is plausible, especially for a Waaagh! currently travelling through the Warp where ork psychic activity will be at its strongest. Also references swarms of grots:

Some great finds here, I have to say! That last point is particularly interesting - it seems as if the larger the Waaagh! energy in an area (or, if you want to be boring in your terms, the larger the footprint of the collective ork psychic energy) the quicker the ork population grows.

That seems to me to imply a certain connection between warp energy and growth, as you say, although it's also possible that there are other things at play. Perhaps what's happening is that as orks spore, they also unwittingly "terraform" wherever they are so that it fits their needs - so even a place which appears relatively barren at first will soon be quite suitable to house a sizeable orkoid population within a generation or two. Perhaps the warp's role in that is to simply speed this process up a touch?

The first Xenobiology book explained that Orks held in isolation would wither and die.

Which is suggestive they need other Orks around for health. So more Orks = more Orks does make sense.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The first Xenobiology book explained that Orks held in isolation would wither and die.

Which is suggestive they need other Orks around for health. So more Orks = more Orks does make sense.

Genetor-Major Lukas Anzion (an Imperial xenobiologist) reports the same finding of lone Orks withering and dying (from the Ork 3rd edition codex).

That thread's no longer a discussion, is it a lecture and I love it.

I skipped on the fact orks die if separated from their kin, although I've got the 3rd edition ork codex. Fascinating finding!

Regarding spore growth, maybe the waarp plays on spore releasing/ activating, helping them grow to maturity regardless of the environment through latent psychic means?




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The waarp? Halfway between warp and waaagh, i'm leaving that typo

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
That thread's no longer a discussion, is it a lecture and I love it.

I skipped on the fact orks die if separated from their kin, although I've got the 3rd edition ork codex. Fascinating finding!

Regarding spore growth, maybe the waarp plays on spore releasing/ activating, helping them grow to maturity regardless of the environment through latent psychic means?

That codex has some great lore snippets, well worth a thorough read!

I suspect Orkoids generally need both favourable realspace environmental conditions (dank, shaded environments) and the psychic link with sufficient other orkoid matter nearby to form a viable early ecosystem (at least based on the theories of Anzion). However, the importance of the realspace environment may diminish as the psychic presence grows stronger, as seen on the space hulk quote above.

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The waarp? Halfway between warp and waaagh, i'm leaving that typo

Hehe

I'll give it a reread yeah, in fact i've got the 3rd, 4th, and 7th edition codices for orks. Well i've got like 80 percent of 3rd to 7th books prior to gathering storm

Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.

If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.

If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.

Tbh I was leaning this way myself. I do think it sounds like it plays a role to have access to the warp, but as an auxiliary process to the general ork spore cycle. Given the description of what Ghazghull and the Ladz went through in that text, it does seem like they got into a lot of scraps; orks spore massively when they die, iirc, though I can't remember which Codex that's stated in. If a load of them die but they win the fight overall, the mixture of sporing and Waaagh! energy increase from the confidence boost might result in a hell of a lot more orks than they started with.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.

If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.

My conclusion is more that the Warp is acting as the raw resources to build more Orks in the otherwise barren setting of a lifeless space hulk. There is going to be neglible biomass on the hull, so what is the Ork horde using to grow with? See Flinty's earlier queries about how Orkoid ecosystems actually sustain in otherwise inhospitable settings.

Undoubtedly the excitement of the Waaagh!, the constant fighting with daemons, and the preachings of Ghaz will have triggered the growth in population. But what is fueling it? Orkoid ecosystems would still need raw materials to grow if they were purely biological in the realspace sense. On a planet, this is simple- the natural resources of the planet can be used and fixed into Orkoid matter. But a lifeless space hulk is majority metal. Ergo, the Warp is likely providing raw material in a manner similar to wraithbone.

...similar to wraithbone, a highly-durable material used by another creation of the Old Ones. Hmm...

Dunno where this idea suddenly came from, but I now want a Frankenork, where a Painboy, tired of being clevver but weedy, steadily acquires “spare bitz” to build himself a bigger bod.

Of course, the final instalment, his bonce, would be in the hands of his ‘Loyal’ Grot Orderlies….

 Haighus wrote:


...similar to wraithbone, a highly-durable material used by another creation of the Old Ones. Hmm...

And wasn't the harnessing of the warp the big ace up the Old Ones' sleeves in their war against the Necrons, a war for which the orks may or may not have been originally created? Fellas, it's all coming together...

 Haighus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.

If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.

My conclusion is more that the Warp is acting as the raw resources to build more Orks in the otherwise barren setting of a lifeless space hulk. There is going to be neglible biomass on the hull, so what is the Ork horde using to grow with? See Flinty's earlier queries about how Orkoid ecosystems actually sustain in otherwise inhospitable settings.

Undoubtedly the excitement of the Waaagh!, the constant fighting with daemons, and the preachings of Ghaz will have triggered the growth in population. But what is fueling it? Orkoid ecosystems would still need raw materials to grow if they were purely biological in the realspace sense. On a planet, this is simple- the natural resources of the planet can be used and fixed into Orkoid matter. But a lifeless space hulk is majority metal. Ergo, the Warp is likely providing raw material in a manner similar to wraithbone.

...similar to wraithbone, a highly-durable material used by another creation of the Old Ones. Hmm...

I would lean on the other hand on the idea of either a trigger mecanism to boost spore reproduction or a warp vitamin helping the spore survive until they reahc maturity. So not the raw material but a useful help in development.

I'd say this because the orks are only latent psykers. That aligns perfectly with the idea that more ork equals more orks because they combine their latent psychic abilities to that end, unknowingly. If survival is compromised, as is the case in a barren space derelict, or if the fiht escalate enough, then uncounsciensly the orks would trigger their own magic, an effect of whcih could be to cause spore to survive and mature magically wit only the bare minimum biomass. In case of our derelicts or space hulks, the one the ork themselves brought with them.

But since it's not stated clearly to my knowledge i'm both feet in the realm of hypothesis.

Thinking about it, and unless I'm wrong, a Space Hulk is a mix of all kinds of things, right? Yeah, it's fused-up spaceships, but also small asteroids and other stuff - a mix of purely mechanical and "organic" stuff in the sense that soil is organic. If we assume that ork spores (like most moulds, as some bathrooms I've had the displeasure of visiting have shown) can grow in some pretty ludicrous places, it's possible that a Space Hulk isn't quite the hostile environment for them that it would be for a human group.

Yeah. Spacehulks are odd things. Yes they’re the decaying remains of space faring craft, but they’re so much more.

The bodies of the crews? Something gonna happen to them. And if it’s airtight where they died, you might get one of those bottle biome things going on, just on a bigger scale.

As someone currently battling damp and mildew in his home (coastal town, basement flat), that stuff is tenacious when left to its own devices.

Yey, though probably scarce at the scale of it, nonetheless their will be some biomass left to eat. But then the psychic abilities of the ork might kick in to boost the process, as psykers of other races may use biomancy. sorta

Depends entirely on how efficient the Ork biology is.

Astartes for instance are canonically noted as having a super efficient digestive system. Not only can they eat stuff that’d outright kill a baseline human in nasty ways? They don’t produce a huge amount of waste - though one presumes that varies depending on exactly what they’ve just scoffed. But for “prime cuts”, what we might get say, 2,000 calories out of? An Astartes might wring 3,000 calories out of through ruthless biological efficiency.

Orks may be the same, especially with a fungal and plant part able to presumably do some kind of photosynthesis.

 YeeeMako wrote:
Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.

Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.

Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books

 Flinty wrote:

 YeeeMako wrote:
Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.

Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.

Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books

I mean, yeah, obviously, but I'd also be the first to admit I like making daft jokes eh!