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Sisters are fanatic,truly so, but dying in droves is the guards job... Or pdf.

While not dying in droves, Sisters do have a tendency to get themselves killed.

Fanatics don't tend to live long after all.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Sisters are fanatic,truly so, but dying in droves is the guards job... Or pdf

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Isn't that fitting Sister's gameplay though? Dying in droves for the cause, getting a miracle that causes the enemy plan to fail, and the few survivors walking away from the battle ready to tell tales of divine intervention and martyrdom by their fellow sisters.

It's an Order of Our Martyred Lady thing, specifically. I mean, all sisters respect their Martyrs... But OoOML take Martyrdom to the next level.

Right now, of course, the only detachment we have is the one designed to suit OoOML.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Sisters are fanatic,truly so, but dying in droves is the guards job... Or pdf

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Another reason why the R&H list was superior to the guard dex, atleast you could field and replace enough man on the table.

Honestly i feel a Lot of factions haven't been handled well on the rules side on the tabletop in correlation to lore really starting with 4th csm onwards.

Then in 5th quality in regards to balance for factions also decayed and 6/7 was just a shitshow in the basegame that covered the degeneration in faction rules design.

8 onwards simplified the rules too much in the base area which leads to overcompensation bloat on the faction side whilest not resolving the core issues provoked by the removal of mechanics...

Then there is the bad to wound table still creating issues.

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

man, its a fething GAME, of course its not gonna be a true representation of the ridiculous fluff. PLEASE tell me your comment isnt advocating for it to actually represent the fluff.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

man, its a fething GAME, of course its not gonna be a true representation of the ridiculous fluff. PLEASE tell me your comment isnt advocating for it to actually represent the fluff.

My comment is advocating to recognize the tabletop cannot represent the fluff either way. A hundred termagants is nothing in the lore yet a significant force on the tabletop. Ten marines is nothing on the tabletop but a significant force on the lore.

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

I always rationalized this as many marines being rendered combat ineffective after a battle without being outright killed. That does fix other issues of scale though and I agree that the tabletop is well divorced from the fluff.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

I always rationalized this as many marines being rendered combat ineffective after a battle without being outright killed. That does fix other issues of scale though and I agree that the tabletop is well divorced from the fluff.

Yeah, that's an easy abstraction.

A Guardsman takes a bolter and is removed from the table? Almost certainly dead.
A Marine takes a bolter and is removed from the table? Combat-ineffective, but they'll be back.

It works less well when it's higher-powered weapons, though.
Guardsman takes a melta to the face? Dead.
Marine takes a melta to the face? Kinda hard to walk that off.

It also doesn't work in melee.

A Marine being combat ineffective while being surrounded by World Eaters/Daemons/Orks/Tyranids?

That's a very dead Marine.

EDIT: Although I guess that is still is kinda lore friendly with the Fall of Malvolion being maybe the best example of how getting a hundred Marines killed in a few minutes.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

man, its a fething GAME, of course its not gonna be a true representation of the ridiculous fluff. PLEASE tell me your comment isnt advocating for it to actually represent the fluff.

Frankly it could be, and it wouldn't even be that hard to do so, the issue is that 40k is, even when completely throwing out the baby with the bathwater, still dragged down by insisting on certain traditional stats for units instead of embracing a total rescaling of everything. Best point of this being properly done is probably Epic, where Marines actually feel like Marines and Terminators trudge through macro weapon fire with greater reliability than most vehicles.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

I always rationalized this as many marines being rendered combat ineffective after a battle without being outright killed. That does fix other issues of scale though and I agree that the tabletop is well divorced from the fluff.

Now I admit I haven't read the greatest array of BL novels, but I don't think the lore routinely shows Marines surviving tank blasts to the face either. In the novels the situation where marines feel badass is when they're room clearing or ambushing a smattering of cultists. As soon as the big guns come out, and the Marines aren't in heavy fortifications, they start dying pretty quick.

On the tabletop we're deploying armies often in LOS to each other, and there are lots of high powered weapons around. That Marines start getting killed is totally lore accurate. The issue is more that merely deploying as we do represents some sort of catastrophe that's already taken place. C n C effed up to get us there in the first place.

Well there is the further issue that tank blasts, either the old templates rules or the current D6 random shots, treat every hit as a direct hit.

Meanwhile in reality only one marine would get a direct hit by the tank projectile and everyone else would get hit by the blast which would have a fraction of the power.

So I expect a Marine to die to a direct hit from a 120mm tank round. But his buddies? they may be thrown around by the blast but likely would survive it.

EDIT: Which is actually a thing in Genefather

Rockets streaked from the carapaces of Vanitas and Danubia. Vanitas’ repeater battlecannon pumped, spitting shells at the foe. Mud and water fountained high where they hit. Heretic Astartes were lofted skywards or knocked off their feet, but it took more than mere explosives to fell a man blessed by the Emperor and the Dark Gods, and most of them hauled themselves back onto their feet.

 Tyran wrote:
Well there is the further issue that tank blasts, either the old templates rules or the current D6 random shots, treat every hit as a direct hit.

Meanwhile in reality only one marine would get a direct hit by the tank projectile and everyone else would get hit by the blast which would have a fraction of the power.

So I expect a Marine to die to a direct hit from a 120mm tank round. But his buddies? they may be thrown around by the blast but likely would survive it.

EDIT: Which is actually a thing in Genefather

Rockets streaked from the carapaces of Vanitas and Danubia. Vanitas’ repeater battlecannon pumped, spitting shells at the foe. Mud and water fountained high where they hit. Heretic Astartes were lofted skywards or knocked off their feet, but it took more than mere explosives to fell a man blessed by the Emperor and the Dark Gods, and most of them hauled themselves back onto their feet.

I guess I disagree. The blast of the Battlecannon has been good at killing Marines in the game since it's inception. Real life antipersonnel munitions are horrific things too. My interpretation is that the author of that passage is writing for rule of cool. One guy got hit, most were out of the killzone, and the other guy/s under the blast template got lucky.

Large blast with high strenght and good AP were cancer as far as I'm concerned.

Something the HH2 writers seem to agree with considering all the nerfs blast weapons got in that edition.

 Tyran wrote:
Large blast with high strenght and good AP were cancer as far as I'm concerned.

Something the HH2 writers seem to agree with considering all the nerfs blast weapons got in that edition.

It works fine when you can't get too many on the table. It's never really the stats of a weapon, but more how many of them you can spam and their ease of use, IMO.

Like AP3 Battlecannons were great in 3rd-4th edition because there weren't many of them, units couldn't move and fire with them, and there were mechanics to suppress them (Stunning/Shaking a vehicle, even if you didn't destroy them). Later editions we got Riptides dancing around throwing large Blast templates llike nobody's business. That's when it sucks.

Was it ever a thing in older editions that blast templates would have different stats for center hole vs the radius, or was the specific to WHFB?

Quite liked that stone throwers would do a strength 10 hit that ignored armor and did d6 wounds to the unlucky guy that got hit by the rock, but the shrapnel was usually much weaker.

One thing HH 2.0 could certainly benefit from with how anemic their blast templates are right now, and seems fitting for the reality of how these weapons operate as described by others.

Not... that that has much to do with Sisters of Battle, though...

 Rihgu wrote:
Was it ever a thing in older editions that blast templates would have different stats for center hole vs the radius, or was the specific to WHFB?

There was one apocalypse template that worked like that, but overall no they used the same stats for center and radius... except against vehicles.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Well there is the further issue that tank blasts, either the old templates rules or the current D6 random shots, treat every hit as a direct hit.

Meanwhile in reality only one marine would get a direct hit by the tank projectile and everyone else would get hit by the blast which would have a fraction of the power.

So I expect a Marine to die to a direct hit from a 120mm tank round. But his buddies? they may be thrown around by the blast but likely would survive it.

EDIT: Which is actually a thing in Genefather

Rockets streaked from the carapaces of Vanitas and Danubia. Vanitas’ repeater battlecannon pumped, spitting shells at the foe. Mud and water fountained high where they hit. Heretic Astartes were lofted skywards or knocked off their feet, but it took more than mere explosives to fell a man blessed by the Emperor and the Dark Gods, and most of them hauled themselves back onto their feet.

I guess I disagree. The blast of the Battlecannon has been good at killing Marines in the game since it's inception. Real life antipersonnel munitions are horrific things too. My interpretation is that the author of that passage is writing for rule of cool. One guy got hit, most were out of the killzone, and the other guy/s under the blast template got lucky.

This is more an issue of one of the chronically poor understandings of explosives on part of the rules writers. A bit similar to how some artillery works in WHFB, the central point of impact of the blast template should be S8, but as mere high explosives the surrounding area of the strike should be far less harmful against anything with serious armor. Pretty sure that's how catapult templates are resolved in WHFB usually.

^Or it's just abstracted out for the sake of simplicity. I mean, if a 120mm shell hits a guy should we even be rolling to wound?

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Or it's just abstracted out for the sake of simplicity. I mean, if a 120mm shell hits a guy should we even be rolling to wound?

Yes, since to wound and to hit are part of the same system of abstraction as the game should be running on a 1d100, with the two folding together for what otherwise would be one roll. That's why instant death used to exist however, to prevent silly gak like a death ball hero being able to shrug off artillery hits even if their saves. Which is also why it was silly that wounds weren't increased in the old system rather than the new one, since it was pitifully easy to resolve the issue of small arms being bad at killing tanky things but high powered armor piercing weapons shredding them outright. Instead of needing bad ideas like 'damage' stats.

^I must admit I'm having trouble parsing the intent of that post.

It's been like 10 posts in this Sisters of Battle thread since anyone even said the words 'Sisters of Battle'.

Since this has denigrated into more useless FAAC whining, should probably just close the thread.

ERJAK wrote:
It's been like 10 posts in this Sisters of Battle thread since anyone even said the words 'Sisters of Battle'.

Since this has denigrated into more useless FAAC whining, should probably just close the thread.

What is a FAAC?

Fluffy at all cost? But that is how we use it here and it is an insult, so am not sure if people can use it.

 Rihgu wrote:
Was it ever a thing in older editions that blast templates would have different stats for center hole vs the radius, or was the specific to WHFB?

Quite liked that stone throwers would do a strength 10 hit that ignored armor and did d6 wounds to the unlucky guy that got hit by the rock, but the shrapnel was usually much weaker.

One thing HH 2.0 could certainly benefit from with how anemic their blast templates are right now, and seems fitting for the reality of how these weapons operate as described by others.

Not... that that has much to do with Sisters of Battle, though...

The Particle Whip from the 3rd Edition Necron Codex was S9, AP3 Ordnance, Large Blast and was AP1 for anything under the center whole regardless of unit type.

Since then the Particle whip has been mostly relegated to anti-infantry except in 9th when it was boosted to S12 AP-3 Damage 3 which made it feel closer to its original power back in 3rd.

The lore reason for this? The Particle whip hits the target much like an actual whip, striking a very small point which causes a shock wave (blast) from there. Something newer writers have probably forgotten about.

 Noir Eternal wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Was it ever a thing in older editions that blast templates would have different stats for center hole vs the radius, or was the specific to WHFB?

Quite liked that stone throwers would do a strength 10 hit that ignored armor and did d6 wounds to the unlucky guy that got hit by the rock, but the shrapnel was usually much weaker.

One thing HH 2.0 could certainly benefit from with how anemic their blast templates are right now, and seems fitting for the reality of how these weapons operate as described by others.

Not... that that has much to do with Sisters of Battle, though...

The Particle Whip from the 3rd Edition Necron Codex was S9, AP3 Ordnance, Large Blast and was AP1 for anything under the center whole regardless of unit type.

Since then the Particle whip has been mostly relegated to anti-infantry except in 9th when it was boosted to S12 AP-3 Damage 3 which made it feel closer to its original power back in 3rd.

The lore reason for this? The Particle whip hits the target much like an actual whip, striking a very small point which causes a shock wave (blast) from there. Something newer writers have probably forgotten about.

The other rules for blast weapons was that if it hit a vehicle, the vehicle had to be under the center hole--otherwise it did damage to that vehicle at half strength, which was essentially almost a 0 chance of doing diddly.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Nobody ever dies in proper droves on the table anyway. A SoB player getting tabled won't ever lose more than 150 models total. By 40k standards that's nothing.

Not true, a Space Marine player getting tabled is a crippling blow that will take centuries to recover from if ever as some loses cannot be replaced (Terminator suits and dreads)

A Custodes player being tabled is pretty much an unheard tragedy.

I always rationalized this as many marines being rendered combat ineffective after a battle without being outright killed. That does fix other issues of scale though and I agree that the tabletop is well divorced from the fluff.

And the fact that people are seriously arguing that it's 'lore accurate' that marines are now resistant to anti tank weapons, is a classic case of fan-cum-writer flanderisation, fanwankery to make marines even more juvenilely OP. A casualty from small arms? Sure, marines can survive those. A melta gun to the face? No. But then orks can also survive small arms fire, necrons too, and dark eldar seem to ignore it. Eldar have advanced psychoreactive suits that can bind their injuries. But they all die to AT weapons.

A space marine hit by an anti tank weapon is dead (and always has been), none of this 'genes of the emperor' crap...


Space marines have to got to be one of the most fascinating scifi concepts - they are everything and the kitchen sink even if contradictory in order to make them supa cool for customers. Limited numbers - except the imperial population is so large that their recruitment pool is effectively limitless (and thus the limit on their numbers has 0 effect).

It's like the writers took the concept of the mary sue and decided to distill it down into a whole 40k faction, all their downsides are actually upsides, all their skills are overblown.

I just can't look at marines in modern 40k with any seriousness whatsoever, because fan apologism just makes them unpalatable an unbearable. Any discussion of them just sounds like my dad can beat up your dad.

Whose argued Marines should be immune to anti-tank weapons? I've not seen a single person say that