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And I am less than enthused with GW right now. Running a special Made To Order of stuff that is going to be dropped to Legends when the codex ships in a few months is more than a little dirty.

I also noticed Astrogranite is finally back in stock, but the better "thicker" Astrogranite Debris is Out Of Stock Online No Longer available. Which is strange because I was on a Notify Me list from GW themselves and I'm pretty sure they never told me it was going to be discontinued.

On the other hand, this makes it a whole lot easier to figure out how they expect us to paint all these Strike Force Agastus, Task Force Leviathan's and so on - we're supposed to switch to Astrogranite/whatever not the thicker version.

Obligatory legends is only for tournaments comment lol

Yeah I'm none too pleased about the Company Champion being forcibly put inside this awkward 4-man mixed ability squad.

The only upside is that the Apothecary didn't get assimilated by this unit.

Unit gets moved to special order/"rotation".

*looks at Chaos Lord with Jump Pack* *Looks at new Jump Pack Loyalist Scum character*.

I feel your pain./s

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah I'm none too pleased about the Company Champion being forcibly put inside this awkward 4-man mixed ability squad.

The only upside is that the Apothecary didn't get assimilated by this unit.

I'm much less annoyed by the Champion than Chronus and Telion. Its one thing to move a preexisting model into a unit - its another to sell a special run of models you're about to invalidate. That's a pretty hefty bait and switch.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Unit gets moved to special order/"rotation".

*looks at Chaos Lord with Jump Pack* *Looks at new Jump Pack Loyalist Scum character*.

I feel your pain./s

Only when they reopen the Chaos Lord with Jump pack for special orders then move him to Legends when the shipment arrives.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Unit gets moved to special order/"rotation".

*looks at Chaos Lord with Jump Pack* *Looks at new Jump Pack Loyalist Scum character*.

I feel your pain./s

Removal is bad, especialy when it makes no sense at all. As there is a special character lord with a jump pack for csm. Or a GK special character with an actual thunder hammer, but marines were really done dirty. First GW releases the index with rules fo scouts, bikers, land speeders, assault space marines etc. They nerf the rules for other things that people played, and some of the stuff like sniper scouts or RAS were actualy good units. They don't tell people they are about to remove to use in to legends or even that there is such a risk. I personaly know two people who bought RAS and sniper scouts, with the mind set that, if GW were to remove them, they wouldn't put them in to the index. And then they legend them, followed by total removal in the codex. And they do it in a not so long ,for GW, time.

But it is what it is. Some people get armies they can play and have fun for multiple editions, others have to rebuy armies twice and edition just trying to keep up with the meta , and there still is a chance that the armies they buy will never be fun. The thing wouldn't make people so angry, if all armies were getting the same or at least similar treatment.

It was obvious to anybody with their eyes open that firstborn units were/are on a one-way train to Legends/the dustbin of history.

I too feel salty for the Legending, so much so that I already purchased a copy of 2nd edition. I'll be going to the vintage rules and will only buy models from now on, since GW has made it clear that investing further in their rulebooks is a waste of money. Endless churn will make sure that you will need to rebuy stuff you dont even want to field, just to be able to play the current game, and enough is enough. I'm getting off the treadmill.

And yes, the writing on the wall was pointing towards firstborn going into HH2, but up until the most recent Legendings, GW pretended these HH2 models would also get rules for 40K, so I wasn't worried about firstborn getting invalidated per se.. which embitters me even more

Mostly they now did to Firstborn what they should have done right from the start and what they do when releasing new kits for every other faction: just give them an updated datasheet with the new options.
The real problem is the new no models no rules/ rules follow kit policy that invalidates many options that prior editions had. Having legends rules for jump Marines only happened because of production issues, it's no way different than new Kommandos or what have you, GW just made it a problem for Marines because of their unnecessary Primaris thing. For once Chaos was lucky as their new Plague Marines or CSM that also dwarfed their predecessors didn't need an explanation and were simply the new kit.

I get your frustration, but.. what did you THINK was going to happen with Made to Order?

GW giveth, GW taketh away.

As others said though - did you really not expect this? The models were made to order/no longer being actively stocked for a reason, surely you must have considered that?

stroller wrote:
I get your frustration, but.. what did you THINK was going to happen with Made to Order?

Well imagine this, you wait to see what happens in 10th. Don't buy stuff at the end of 9th. 10th drops you see termintors, sternguard, there is all the units you want in the index. To make it even more fun some of those units are actualy fun and worth playing. Someone who played for multiple editions, may have still said I will wait till the codex drops. But a multi edition sm player ain't buying new classic marine models . Who buys it then? The new player, maybe someone who started at the end of 9th or who played once and now is returning. And then GW shows them the rules, the points costs and they are good, why wouldn't they buy the models. If GW didn't phase out termintors and sternguard why would they do it now? I mean they had 2 editions to do it and they didn't.

Looking at all the datasheet changes the new Codex introduced, and I'm feeling even saltier than before. Sure enough, many sheets lost their "Primaris" prefix from the title, but this doesn't suggest what people earlier were saying, that this now means you can use whaetever models to represent them, because all the datasheets that lost Primaris from their title also gained the TACTICUS keyword. Add insult to injury, Devs lost access to Heavy Flamers and many of the more powerful melee options were dropped, making units such as devs basically Charge fodder for any opponent..

What GW effectively did here was a major squatting of the firstborn datasheets. Good luck trying to fit any of the new units into Rhinos (with the exception of HQs) - they are all just Tacticus now aka Primaris

Uh, I'd get the complaint of dropping Dreadnoughts, Hunter/Stalker etc.

But Made to Order? Yea no gak are they dropping units that aren't even in production

Wayniac wrote:
Obligatory legends is only for tournaments comment lol

Figured this needed to be said again because literally everybody missed it the first time around.

Lemondish wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Obligatory legends is only for tournaments comment lol

Figured this needed to be said again because literally everybody missed it the first time around.

I mean I was 100% being sarcastic because I've never met anyone who would allow legends even in a friendly game....

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It was obvious to anybody with their eyes open that firstborn units were/are on a one-way train to Legends/the dustbin of history.

It's still difficult to believe they wont be back at some point. In term of the 40k timeline we've got a couple hundred years of HH/Legion Space Marines, a couple hundred years (maybe less?) Of post Cawl Primaris drivel . . . And a span of 10,000 years in between, where the Codex Astartes with Tactical, Assault, Devastator are literally holy scripture. Not to mention representing the OG Marines in RL, the long-time face of the game, with Tacticals being the best selling kit of all time.

The situation is bananas.


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Wayniac wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Obligatory legends is only for tournaments comment lol

Figured this needed to be said again because literally everybody missed it the first time around.

I mean I was 100% being sarcastic because I've never met anyone who would allow legends even in a friendly game....

Really? That's kinda wild.

I guess so but yeah even the casual players are like well legends are not allowed for play even though it's really just not allowed in tournaments. It's basically if the tournaments don't allow it it doesn't exist even when they're not playing tournament games.

Wayniac wrote:
I mean I was 100% being sarcastic because I've never met anyone who would allow legends even in a friendly game....

That's really sad.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
...I mean I was 100% being sarcastic because I've never met anyone who would allow legends even in a friendly game....

Really? That's kinda wild.

People who aren't experienced with Warhammer assume that GW knows what they're doing and are making intelligent balance decisions to make the game better, and people who are experienced with Warhammer either place more value on adhering to the tournament standard than having a good time, or have quit.

(Disclaimer: I'm being hyperbolic, I am aware of the existence of a small minority of people who manage to play Warhammer for a long time without having their brains entirely taken over by "tournament play is superior!")

Wayniac wrote:
I guess so but yeah even the casual players are like well legends are not allowed for play even though it's really just not allowed in tournaments. It's basically if the tournaments don't allow it it doesn't exist even when they're not playing tournament games.

So when you play one of these people in a non-tourny game just include a Legends unit.
Use 1 unit that you know they were perfectly fine playing against the day before it became a Legends.

When they object? Point to what GW has written at the beginning of the Legends entry.
As in pull it up & show them.

Challenge them on it!
A) ask why they'll follow every other rule as written - except this one.
B) insist upon knowing why they believe that THEY get to dictate wich rules get followed/ignored. There are two of you involved afterall.....
C) if they insist upon you not using x? Then pick one of their units (something comparable if possible) & insist they not use that.
D) and if they still insist? Pack your stuff up & walk away. {Bonus if the other person is actually inconvenienced by suddenly not having a game to play.}

My hope is that as more & more people find themselves inconvenienced by having stuff moved to Legends that they will reconsider their
stupid anti-Legend stances.
(It sure worked on the one CSM player at the shop when their jump-lord went "Legenday" last edition. And some of the SM/CSM players this edition suddenly started singing a whole different tune when thier FW/HH2 pieces were shunted off to Legends. Especially the ones with more finite hobby budgets. )

stroller wrote:
I get your frustration, but.. what did you THINK was going to happen with Made to Order?

Mostly I assumed if they bothered to Make To Order, the models would last at least another edition or more because a bunch of players just put in a special order for those models.

While i feel for people who have their models Legended or made totally invalid, MTO is primarily for hobbyist not players. There are an opportunity to get those models you missed before, not to give you modern game pieces. Some of the MTO models were totally invalid in the game when they go on MTO.

 alextroy wrote:
While i feel for people who have their models Legended or made totally invalid, MTO is primarily for hobbyist not players. There are an opportunity to get those models you missed before, not to give you modern game pieces. Some of the MTO models were totally invalid in the game when they go on MTO.

If they're valid when they go on MTO, they should still be valid when they're delivered - and probably for at least the rest of the edition. Likewise Scouts etc that were valid for the PDF release should have been valid for the rest of the edition. Removals should be done at the very beginning or very end of an edition. There's a strong bait-and-switch vibe going on here.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It was obvious to anybody with their eyes open that firstborn units were/are on a one-way train to Legends/the dustbin of history.

Depends on your timescale, really. Within ~10 years they'll have started to remake firstborn kits and sell them to the hobby latecomers who nursed full-Primaris armies.

 Altruizine wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It was obvious to anybody with their eyes open that firstborn units were/are on a one-way train to Legends/the dustbin of history.

Depends on your timescale, really. Within ~10 years they'll have started to remake firstborn kits and sell them to the hobby latecomers who nursed full-Primaris armies.

Truth be told I think that's somewhat irrelevant - They put their thumb on the scales of demand - they made Sniper Scouts really good in the PDF, then offered Telion the Sniper Scout character on Made To Order. Before Squatting both.

They made a PDF Sheet for the Primaris Champion, then put him on Made To Order, before putting him in the Company Heroes Squad.

It's still difficult to believe they wont be back at some point. In term of the 40k timeline we've got a couple hundred years of HH/Legion Space Marines, a couple hundred years (maybe less?) Of post Cawl Primaris drivel . . . And a span of 10,000 years in between, where the Codex Astartes with Tactical, Assault, Devastator are literally holy scripture. Not to mention representing the OG Marines in RL, the long-time face of the game, with Tacticals being the best selling kit of all time.

If it wasn't so incongruous with their background I would be fine with it. But they literally have thousand year old vehicles. Relics being wheeled out. Now they have managed to re-equip everyone in a few decades and they have decided to stop using all the stuff in the warehouse?

Could someone summarise for me what old marine units have been removed from the codex? Not fussed about wargear options.

Land speeders have gone, what else?

 tauist wrote:
Looking at all the datasheet changes the new Codex introduced, and I'm feeling even saltier than before. Sure enough, many sheets lost their "Primaris" prefix from the title, but this doesn't suggest what people earlier were saying, that this now means you can use whaetever models to represent them, because all the datasheets that lost Primaris from their title also gained the TACTICUS keyword. Add insult to injury, Devs lost access to Heavy Flamers and many of the more powerful melee options were dropped, making units such as devs basically Charge fodder for any opponent..

What GW effectively did here was a major squatting of the firstborn datasheets. Good luck trying to fit any of the new units into Rhinos (with the exception of HQs) - they are all just Tacticus now aka Primaris

Honestly, when it comes to models & keywords... so what? I'm not sure why you feel the Tacitus keyword matters for anything but squads getting in rhinos (which _is_ dumb, but characters have that exception, so it 100% doesn't matter that the characters have the 'tacitus' keyword). Using old marines as is just... isn't a problem.

Breton wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It was obvious to anybody with their eyes open that firstborn units were/are on a one-way train to Legends/the dustbin of history.

Depends on your timescale, really. Within ~10 years they'll have started to remake firstborn kits and sell them to the hobby latecomers who nursed full-Primaris armies.

Truth be told I think that's somewhat irrelevant - They put their thumb on the scales of demand - they made Sniper Scouts really good in the PDF, then offered Telion the Sniper Scout character on Made To Order. Before Squatting both.

They made a PDF Sheet for the Primaris Champion, then put him on Made To Order, before putting him in the Company Heroes Squad.

So... use the champion as... a champion. Use telion as a sniper. Ta-dah..

 tauist wrote:
I too feel salty for the Legending, so much so that I already purchased a copy of 2nd edition. I'll be going to the vintage rules and will only buy models from now on, since GW has made it clear that investing further in their rulebooks is a waste of money. Endless churn will make sure that you will need to rebuy stuff you dont even want to field, just to be able to play the current game, and enough is enough. I'm getting off the treadmill.

And yes, the writing on the wall was pointing towards firstborn going into HH2, but up until the most recent Legendings, GW pretended these HH2 models would also get rules for 40K, so I wasn't worried about firstborn getting invalidated per se.. which embitters me even more

Just hope you dont play against any of the factions in 2e that playing with a normal faction will feel more like a practical joke than a game.

The balance in that system was...uh..."interesting."

Khorne Daemons and Eldar in particular are a very *very* unenjoyable experience as an opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just to introduce you momentarily to the "fun" of 2nd edition balance:

Lets say your opponent is playing an army of Khorne Daemons using the Daemon World army list. They've got access to a little unit called Bloodletters.

Bloodletters are 20 points apiece, and come in minimum unit sizes of 3. They have a 4+ invulnerable save, and if they fail that, they don't die, they get knocked over and you roll a die for them in the Rally phase. On a 4+, they get right back up, and of course, don't take any leadership tests (that they wouldnt fail anyway because LD10) so the shooting from an average squad will be super overkill to the 3 4+ invuln saves and then the squad will just respawn 1-2 members who will keep coming at you no matter what you do.

Voss wrote:

So... use the champion as... a champion. Use telion as a sniper. Ta-dah..

I have the snipers. I have Champion, and will have another when I get the Heroes squad. 10 scouts with one sniper will run me what 40 bucks for an entire box? Telion runs 40 bucks by himself? What part of this is too complicated for you? They sold these things knowning they were about to squat them.