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GW routinely sells overpriced alternative models for models that are part of kits. They often think that people will want cool models just because they are cool. Do any of these ring a bell?
Not that it doesn't suck that you don't get us the models as intended without Legends, but Legends aren't exactly a new concept.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

So... use the champion as... a champion. Use telion as a sniper. Ta-dah..

I have the snipers. I have Champion, and will have another when I get the Heroes squad. 10 scouts with one sniper will run me what 40 bucks for an entire box? Telion runs 40 bucks by himself? What part of this is too complicated for you? They sold these things knowning they were about to squat them.

The champion was never a general release model in the first place and it's actually more surprising they gave out public rules for that model. Other than that people are suggesting ways you can use your minis still and you're just giving them snark responses about how much you spent.

Further to this, the MTO was run from 20th May to 29th May which is before the release of the Marine index (9th June). You obviously didn't buy Telion because "Sniper scouts were good" as you postulated on the previous page.

Regards future use, pad out the base for Telion and use him as a phobos lieutenant/captain (assuming you won't use legends, which you can). Again pad out the bases to the appropriate volume and put the sniper scouts on a 40mm to use as eliminators (what I'm doing). Use them all as scouts! Just keep them all armed with bolters so there's no confusion and keep using them.

Things like this can/do suck but on this occasion it feels you're having an unreasonable grump for the sakes of not reading the room when it came to the minis you ordered.

 alextroy wrote:
GW routinely sells overpriced alternative models for models that are part of kits. They often think that people will want cool models just because they are cool. Do any of these ring a bell?

None of those four minis have anything to do with what Breton is talking about.

Dudeface wrote:
The champion was never a general release model in the first place...

Right up until the moment when he suddenly was, and anyone could buy him.

Me: I get your frustration, but.. what did you THINK was going to happen with Made to Order?

Breton: Who buys it then? The new player, maybe someone who started at the end of 9th or who played once and now is returning.

Fair point

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
GW routinely sells overpriced alternative models for models that are part of kits. They often think that people will want cool models just because they are cool. Do any of these ring a bell?

None of those four minis have anything to do with what Breton is talking about.

Dudeface wrote:
The champion was never a general release model in the first place...

Right up until the moment when he suddenly was, and anyone could buy him.

And here is the reason event minis now are boring alternate sculpts.

Make something that's cool and limited? People complain.

Make it cool and widely available for a direct only 9 day window and people expect it to be evergreen.

Make a display piece with no rules? Worthless according to some.

Make a display piece with rules? Locking options away.

The safest option: here's an extra exo-champion, generic vampire or random Sargent (although I think there was expectations of rules there).

Is this the complaining about complaining pitch again?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Is this the complaining about complaining pitch again?

Not exactly, just exasperation that well never see fun one off limited ed minis that push the envelope because of threads like this basically.

It's not entirely unfounded but it is a subjective thing.

Cool and limited isn't the problem.
The problem is, when limited should be in a somewhat equally accessible form like a limited mini in a preorder and gw then ignores the scallping issue of their site..

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cool and limited isn't the problem.
The problem is, when limited should be in a somewhat equally accessible form like a limited mini in a preorder and gw then ignores the scallping issue of their site..

That's a very different problem and thankfully not something relevant to the issue here.

Still ties in though.
Even in book form with special issue codices.

It's fomo with suggested fake availability.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

So... use the champion as... a champion. Use telion as a sniper. Ta-dah..

I have the snipers. I have Champion, and will have another when I get the Heroes squad. 10 scouts with one sniper will run me what 40 bucks for an entire box? Telion runs 40 bucks by himself? What part of this is too complicated for you? They sold these things knowning they were about to squat them.

Its not complicated at all. You have the models you bought and ways to use them. There literally is no problem.
If you don't think they're worth the money you paid, that's a different issue (and, imo, entirely a budgeting problem)

Many dudes at my store have 10-30 sniper scouts, multiple RAS units and the two WS players have full bike armies. Their entire collections are now not legal to play. Even if someone allowed them to legends, which people here would not, they would still have huge chunks of their collections voided.

And not everyone here has 6+ different armies to jump to, in case the one they picked becomes legal for regular play.

Karol wrote:
Many dudes at my store have 10-30 sniper scouts, multiple RAS units and the two WS players have full bike armies. Their entire collections are now not legal to play. Even if someone allowed them to legends, which people here would not, they would still have huge chunks of their collections voided.

And not everyone here has 6+ different armies to jump to, in case the one they picked becomes legal for regular play.

sigh...

Am I not wrong? GW updates the rules, gives land speeders, scouts, RAS good rules. They also bring back termintors and sternguard, but don't call them "primaris" termintors or sternguard, which gave hope to people that had bike armies and the like. Then the same people saw the units in indexs. It is even more a gakky move, then what GW pulled with all the contemptor dreadnoughts and tanks from FW, they made in to plastic. Told people that they could use them, people bought them, then removed them from the game.

And what is worse, they only do stuff like that to for marines. They didn't phase out ork boys when snaggas came out. Didn't replace eldar with everything Inari etc.

The only thing that comes close is IG regiments they just stopped producing. But those at least people can still use as cadians. Can't use speeders, scouts or bikers, or all the characters with TH or mounted on bikes, because there is no legal way to do it.

And it even shows in the marine codex. Whole "white scar" detachment mentions mounted stuff all the time, but while adding 4 types of Lt, chaplains etc somehow forgot that marines, after the purge, have one mounted character a chaplain.

Karol wrote:And what is worse, they only do stuff like that to for marines. They didn't phase out ork boys when snaggas came out. Didn't replace eldar with everything Inari etc.

Ah. The sad thing is, I think you're serious, because you aren't familiar enough with the game or its history.

Orks have lost a LOT of units over the years. A sheer mindboggling amount of kits and bits.

Chaos has been a hot mess of loss and regret for... 6 editions now.

Eldar have been a minefield of neglect and stasis, Ynnari were, as far as can be told, a reboot aborted at the last minute and it took years for kits to start coming out again.

Marines are getting a trim for the first time since around 3rd edition (where they lost hand flamers for a time), because their favored child status left them a bloated mess that even GW couldn't juggle anymore.

And 'lose' is very much dubious because, despite all the moaning, official direction is Marines can use X for Y without issue.

---
No, this isn't a recurring situation for marines that other armies don't experience..

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Many dudes at my store have 10-30 sniper scouts, multiple RAS units and the two WS players have full bike armies. Their entire collections are now not legal to play. Even if someone allowed them to legends, which people here would not, they would still have huge chunks of their collections voided.

And not everyone here has 6+ different armies to jump to, in case the one they picked becomes legal for regular play.

sigh...

There were Necron Pariahs.
I used to be able to field Plague Marines with Plasma pistols, or a squad of 5 with two Meltas.
Beast Snaggas are more comparible to the Black Templar Squad than to Primaris. They're a subfaction unit.

A "meta" that apparently allows and encourages recasts all the time but doesn't allow legends is not worth talking about.

Scares me that people are so quick to dismiss people's concerns about invalidated models, up to the point of basically screeching "Just use them as something else, dummy!" like that was acceptable or even desirable outcome.

The new Marine Codex invalidates anywhere up to 50%-60% of my Ultramarines, much like the first Death Guard Codex invalidated about 70% of my Death Guard, and the World Eater Codex invalidated almost my entire WE army.

This is not something I can just 'counts as' my way out of, and it's not something that I should just shut up and accept.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scares me that people are so quick to dismiss people's concerns about invalidated models, up to the point of basically screeching "Just use them as something else, dummy!" like that was acceptable or even desirable outcome.

The new Marine Codex invalidates anywhere up to 50%-60% of my Ultramarines, much like the first Death Guard Codex invalidated about 70% of my Death Guard, and the World Eater Codex invalidated almost my entire WE army.

This is not something I can just 'counts as' my way out of, and it's not something that I should just shut up and accept.

Yeah, this.

I think its because the entire community is being impacted by the invalidations in some capacity, across a spectrum of what that means, and as a result theres maybe less sympathy to go around than there should be. Those of us that had 9 deff dreds in an ork army for example, just lost access to 6 of them. Votann players that ran a Hearthkyn horde or whatever had their squad sizes cut in half. If you used to field your chaos space marines in units of 20, now you're fielding them in units of 10, etc.

Its a pervasive and progressive thing thats been ongoing for years at this point. Most of us are suffering it in small incremental steps over time which desensitizes us to it as it stays at the level of a nuisance or annoyance rather than rising to outrage. The examples you indicated are the other extreme that are happening more suddenly in larger chunks, where it is outrageous. The incremental crowd struggles to sympathize with it, because they've been desensitized to it over time and are accustomed to it, when they see the outrage they scoff at it as entitlement or whining - not realizing that the sudden invalidation of a large chunk of army is different than losing access to the second special weapon in each of your troops squads, etc.

Being reduced from 9 to 3 Deffdreads is a little different from being reduced from 30 to 0 Assault Mariens. Or to 0 bikes. 0 Ironclads.

And then there's the sheer inconsistency of it:

1. Jump Pack Captain can have TH/SS, even though it's not in the kit.
2. Jump Pack Assault Intercessor Sergeant cannot have a TH, even though non-jump pack Assault Intercessor Sergeant can (it's in that kit).
3. Regular Intercessor Sergeant can have a TH... but it's not part of his kit, he has to borrow it from the Assault Intercessor kit.
4. Devastator Sergeant can't have a Storm Bolter, which is part of his kit.

It's abso-fething-lutely maddening, and it's almost more annoying that losing units wholesale, as what's leftover just invalidates so many more models.

I love this model. I've had it for ages. I've used it as a Captain for years, and even a Lieutenant in more recent years. Completely illegal. No amount of people groaning about 'Counts As' will ever convince me to count this as a Primaris Captain with a Bolt Rifle. He's not a Primaris Marine. He doesn't have a Bolt Rifle. I have enough less time for the "Well ackshually!" crowd crowing about how 'Primaris' isn't a thing anymore.

As far as reduction in choices (the Deff Dread example), I'm the guy with 15 standard Leman Russes (plus all the others) making up 3 complete Armoured Companies. I own 6 Demolishers and 4 Vanquishers. Only way to bring more than 3 of each is with the tank commander. I literally cannot bring more than 4 stock Russes as a result. The removal of Squadrons guts my army. I feel your pain there, but the pain of that isn't worse than those suffering the complete loss of substantial parts of their army. A Russ still exists. A Deff Dread still exists. Scout Bikes and Land Speeder Tornadoes? No such luck.

If GW just took that extra step and made Detachments something that also determined army structure (ie. handed out Battleline), then so many of these issues would go away.

There will be an Armoured Company detachment in the upcoming Guard 'Dex. There will be a Ghost Warrior detachment in the new Eldar 'Dex. Hell, there may even be a Dread Mob detachment in the new Ork 'Dex.

But because GW didn't take that one step further, the Armoured Company detachment won't let me field my Armoured Company, the Ghost Walker detachment won't let me bring all my Wraithguard/Wraithlords, and a Dread Mob won't suddenly make more Deff Dreads appear out of thin air. We'll just get Strats with keywords on them (just as Tyranids did - whose Crusher Stampede rule only affects Carnifexes if you take the minimum amount of them... ).

Being reduced from 9 to 3 Deffdreads is a little different from being reduced from 30 to 0 Assault Mariens. Or to 0 bikes. 0 Ironclads.

Yes, thats kind of literally my point. It is different, but they also exist on the same spectrum of gakky practices and those who have suffered under the former struggle to be sympathetic to the latter as a result of equivocating the two.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Scares me that people are so quick to dismiss people's concerns about invalidated models, up to the point of basically screeching "Just use them as something else, dummy!" like that was acceptable or even desirable outcome.

The new Marine Codex invalidates anywhere up to 50%-60% of my Ultramarines, much like the first Death Guard Codex invalidated about 70% of my Death Guard, and the World Eater Codex invalidated almost my entire WE army.

This is not something I can just 'counts as' my way out of, and it's not something that I should just shut up and accept.

This is extremely infuriating. My Salamanders are in the same boat.


I don't WANT to run stuff as something else.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scares me that people are so quick to dismiss people's concerns about invalidated models, up to the point of basically screeching "Just use them as something else, dummy!" like that was acceptable or even desirable outcome.

The new Marine Codex invalidates anywhere up to 50%-60% of my Ultramarines, much like the first Death Guard Codex invalidated about 70% of my Death Guard, and the World Eater Codex invalidated almost my entire WE army.

This is not something I can just 'counts as' my way out of, and it's not something that I should just shut up and accept.

Then what will you do about it if you're unwilling to adapt to the current status quo? Will you simply never field the minis again?

^Play a different ruleset. Earlier edition, Grimdark Future, create my own ruleset, etc.

Not spend money on GW.

Dudeface wrote:
Then what will you do about it if you're unwilling to adapt to the current status quo? Will you simply never field the minis again?

What do you suggest I do.

And before you answer, let's consider that these two options are unacceptable solutions:

1. 'Counts As'.
2. Play 30k.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then what will you do about it if you're unwilling to adapt to the current status quo? Will you simply never field the minis again?

What do you suggest I do.

And before you answer, let's consider that these two options are unacceptable solutions:

1. 'Counts As'.
2. Play 30k.

I'd suggest you play with legends once they're available. However your restrictions are self imposed here and you have to acknowledge that.

Ultimately I think it sounds like it might be time for you to leave the game, which is sad, but you're backed into a position you'll never be happy and at that point it's not worth your time if it doesn't bring joy.

Restrictions are not merely "self imposed". For those of us who are used to playing 'tournament-adjacent' the no-Legends-supported can be very much not by our choice.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Restrictions are not merely "self imposed". For those of us who are used to playing 'tournament-adjacent' the no-Legends-supported can be very much not by our choice.

Then don't play them in tournaments, that's a self imposed limitation. Or get TO authorisation for proxies if needed and that doesn't offend your sensibilities too much.

Lol, freaking playing by the rules is a "self-imposed limitation" if you stretch far enough. You could be riding a bike or eating food...

Because those are not rules but guidelines
GW is a model company, not a gaming company, they only make good models but not games