Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2023/10/17 05:56:07
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
They moved the WS/BS to the weapon instead of the operator, which they could have and did artificially accomplish in 9th (powerfist hitting on a 4+ is so different to a ws 3+ subtract 1 powerfist!). They moved a load of rules from slightly renamed copy/pastes to USR aaaand that's about it really? Oh they simplified cover back down.
Well, they also eliminated an entire phase of the game (psychic) and rebuilt another entire phase of the game (morale); the missions for the base game are now generated by a card deck, they eliminated subfaction traits for every faction in the game to the point where now any space Marine is equally a Space Wolf, and a Blood Angel, and a Dark Angel and Ultramarine depending on which detachment the player chooses; they eliminated an entire game mode and created another; they removed a game size, they made vehicles relevant again, reduced by more than 80% the number of strats available to a player during any given game and reworked CP to make strats even less important, and they went through weapon profiles with the biggest consolidation hammer we've seen in a good long time, and then made what was left over FREE....
There have been only 3 edition changes greater than those from 9th-10th: 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and 7th-8th
.
Psychic phase is a fair point but I tend to forget that as it's been out of the game for more editions than in at this point. Morale is still a 2d6 roll compared to a ld stat, the affect is different but it doesn't feel to use, which is important. Vehicles being made relevant is purely due to stat shuffling so no rules changes there per-se.
The rest of that it outside of the rules, the reason 10th doesn't feel that removed from 9th is that imo the biggest changes are in the codex and force structure, not part of the core rules.
I'll add that the loss of subfactions is a real sore point for some, as is the reduction of strats. Some people heavily valued those to scheme and stack for gotchas, that thought process was a lot of their enjoyment in the game. However it was too much cognitive load imo and subfactions are a fairly recent thing for a lot of armies and they are almost certainly something that needed points differences due to how massively they swung balance on some units. So I understand why they went.
For what it's worth, 6th to 7th added the psychic phase, fortifications, lords of war, normalised/broadened allies and added detachments. I'd argue that had more of an impact on the game than 9th to 10th.
2023/10/17 06:00:04
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
GW is going towards more balance to please the "tournament players". This also means less randomness in the game and less difference between armies.
Oh, I assure you that it's not just tournament players that may have a preference towards an intellectual challenge of a strategy game where you can enjoy your good moves being consistently rewarded (and lament your bad moves being consistently punished) instead of a random fest where you just watch the game play itself.
I also assure you that wh40k is very much at the latter end of this spectrum, regardless of edition. My point of reference are for example modern euro games which have no randomness whatsoever (being neatly designed they don't need tons of random to obfuscate imbalances in the system designers can't be bothered to fix). If you compare wh40k's relationship with randomness to games such as Brass or Concordia or Food Chain Magnate it is much more similar to Snakes&Ladders than any of these titles, whether in 2nd, 5th or current edition.
2023/10/17 08:00:28
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
With respect to amount of discussion here, one relevant note is that forums are broadly obsolete -- there are definitely some big ones out there but by and large conversations are moving to other options -- reddit, Discord, video content, etc.
I think this is a very negative development in some ways and has quite worsened the level of discussion available for at least some games, but I also think that's sort of the "online cultural moment" that we're in -- sadly, forums like these are rather outmoded now.
2023/10/17 10:53:18
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
One thing that’s hurt the soul of 40k is the invasion of reality into the fantasy.
At the start it was a sandbox. A loose frame to tell your story. Your Dudes, your collection of minis and their escapades across the battlefield. You had structure, but choices and options.
As the years have gone by, we’ve had less and less of that. The turning point was the Chapterhouse lawsuit, but that was just the start. No model, no rules is a blight on modeling and creativity. There is no need to kitbash anymore. You still can, but it’s purely aesthetic these days.
Yes, it makes it simpler for new players. No need to source obscure bits or fiddle with a hobby knife. But it also means that a lot of iconic options that help define the lore of the game and flavors of certain factions are not available, simply because GW doesn’t include that option in the currently produced kit.
And you end up with silly restrictions based on sprues. An example from the most recent kit I bought, the new Sternguard kit. The sarge can have either a combi weapon or a special ammo bolter. He can swap that for a CC toy, but he can also take a CC weapon in addition to his rifle, but only with a basic rifle, not the combi. The is because that’s the option that has the sling bit in the box. No lore or balance reasons.
Marketing, sales, and corporate are sticking their fingers into my fantasy and messing it up. Whenever you have things in- game that can’t either be explained away with lore resons (The Codex prohibits this action) or game balance ones (If we allow this option it would overlap with rule x to create an infinite kill combo) it breaks the immersion.
Kingsley wrote: With respect to amount of discussion here, one relevant note is that forums are broadly obsolete -- there are definitely some big ones out there but by and large conversations are moving to other options -- reddit, Discord, video content, etc.
I think this is a very negative development in some ways and has quite worsened the level of discussion available for at least some games, but I also think that's sort of the "online cultural moment" that we're in -- sadly, forums like these are rather outmoded now.
I have been posting on forums longer than I've had an email address. I was a forumite before it was cool, and will continue to use em after the bandwagons have moved on. The combined voices of the masses always end up approaching meaningless noise, in that regard the quality of discussion outweighs the quantity of it every single time
You could also argue that games such as 40K are outmoded and computer and video games are king - and again, does it even matter?
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2023/10/17 13:04:36
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
This gonna always be a loss of soul when a small thing made with friends and passion reaches global corporation levels. As the old guard retire and the people in charge become more interested in profits and sustainability there's no more room for risks or niche releases and appealing to the lowest common denominator becomes more important than making an official model for something because someone came up with some cool fluff.
2023/10/17 13:22:01
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
I use reddit and facebook groups for discussion, but I prefer dakka. The forum/message board format is better for long term storage and reference of content and information. I can and regularly do pull up stuff that was posted here 10-15 years ago for reference in discussions on certain topics.
The search functionality of platforms like facebook and reddit is very poor and content posted there is basically lost to the ether after some time, good luck finding it. The increased usage of these platforms (as well as Twitter/X and Discord) has been awful in my view, as content and information shared on these platforms is segregated/unindexed on search engines and requires separate searches to pull up.
15-20 years ago, if I cooked up a bitchin' conversion of an Ork Stompa or whatever and posted it online to my forums, that content would basically live there forever so long as those servers/forums continued to be maintained, and searching for "Ork Stompa Conversion" on google could reasonably be expected to result in a hit for photos of that conversion, and potentially even the post where I explain how I did it.
Today, if I posted that conversion to Facebook/Discord/Twitter/Reddit, the only way anyone would ever be able to reference back to it in 15-20 years time is if they searched that specific platform for that information with the exact right search terms (facebook in particular seems finnicky about what/how it indexes stuff, I could use exact words from a post and not find what I'm looking for if I don't utilize the exact keywords that facebook seems to actually index by). Whats worse is that as far as Facebook and Discord are concerned, is you would need to search in a specific group or channel to find it. If you're a member of Ork Converters Anonymous channel, but I only posted the photos into Big Meks Konvershun Korner channel, you're not going to ever find that content.
Reddit and Twitter are a bit more forgiving as they do get indexed to search engines, but only if the posts reach a certain threshold of page views (which seems to be a bit higher than the threshold used for typical forums, or forum posts are otherwise more likely to hit that threshold than twitter/reddit are as it generally seems the indexing of dakka and other forums is more complete than reddit/twitter). Twitter posts are generally more difficult to search in my experience due to the way people share content to the platform - someone sharing photos of their Ork stompa conversion is less likely to post something like "Check out my cool ork stompa converted from a Khorne Lord of Skulls" and more likely to just post "#Orks #Stompa #Conversion #Warhammer40k" which are nonspecific generic terms that will produce thousands if not millions of hits that you need to parse through in order to find the one specific thing you are looking for. The use of natural language and the discussion that evolves in forum threads makes it much easier to search using even ballpark similar language or referencing snippets that were added in comments rather than the original post, etc., whereas Twitter and hashtag-centric platforms rely on exact ter inology.of the originating post and comments/replies don't usually improve searchability, etc.
Reddit on the other hand, its been my experience that if its not indexed by google you will never find it as reddits own internal search features don't seem to work very well. I have at times searched for reddit posts using reddits search features and bene unable to generate any search results at all, and then take the same search string to google and find exactly what I am looking for at the top of my results.
etc etc
Point is, forums are better for the internet and information retention than the other platforms that people have migrated to.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/17 13:42:32
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
My favourite thing about forums is the fact that they are self contained small ponds, unlike their modern alternatives. I use a different nickname for all my forums I visit, making much more difficult for any potential stalkers to "deep profile" me. I've always thought privacy is a fundamental human right and these endelss datahives such as Reddit, Meta & Youtube dont seem to be too concerned about gakking on my privacy for profit
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2023/10/17 14:12:57
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
Ah, see I use the same screenname everywhere, though I've tried to segregate it from my real world identity as best as possible (inevitably over the years I fethed up somewhere along the way and I'm sure they are bridged together somewhere). I know others do the same as I've interacted with fellow dakkites on reddit and discord in the past (I do use discord for "other" games where there is not active discussion on my preferred channels).
Interestingly though, on multiple occasions I've recognized fellow dakkites on facebook, which is a more surprising thing as they are usually going by real names. I think for the most part its been because someone posts a thread on dakka and then posts a very similar/identical post on facebook (I thinkc thats how I ID'd HBMC once),then there was that time I spotted JohnHwangDD on FB because of his username (that or theres someone else out there with the same name who is also a 40k fan from California and its just a hell of a coincidence), pretty sure I spotted Kid_Kyoto on there too as the number of American 40k fans currently living in Egypt who have previously resided in China, etc. can't be too large of a number.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/17 14:41:30
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
The_Real_Chris wrote: Oh forums are far superior for discussion - social media seems to be more about conversation and reaction.
So I have always been happy to see threads resurface if that discussion continues.
Agreed. AMG (the current developers of the X-Wing miniatures game) recently set up a Discord. The old forums disappeared a couple of years ago. The Discord is unusable, IMO. A single "General Discussion" channel with everyone posting about random stuff and no real organisation or categorisation makes it completely pointless except doe having areal-time conversation with someone. Even a more focussed, local Discord has similar problems. My local club's Discord has fairly low traffic, but it's still a pain to find stuff to respond to.
The decline of forums is frustrating to me because I think they provide a genuinely useful user experience that none of the alternatives can match. Seems like I'm in the minority, judging by the way things are going.
2023/10/17 14:43:24
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
The_Real_Chris wrote: Oh forums are far superior for discussion - social media seems to be more about conversation and reaction.
So I have always been happy to see threads resurface if that discussion continues.
Agreed. AMG (the current developers of the X-Wing miniatures game) recently set up a Discord. The old forums disappeared a couple of years ago. The Discord is unusable, IMO. A single "General Discussion" channel with everyone posting about random stuff and no real organisation or categorisation makes it completely pointless except doe having areal-time conversation with someone. Even a more focussed, local Discord has similar problems. My local club's Discord has fairly low traffic, but it's still a pain to find stuff to respond to.
The decline of forums is frustrating to me because I think they provide a genuinely useful user experience that none of the alternatives can match. Seems like I'm in the minority, judging by the way things are going.
thats a problem with how the discord servers are setup, not with discord as a whole. You can trivially separate conversation in multiple different groups, and even start actual threads for when the conversation goes on a tangeant
2023/10/17 14:43:26
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
chaos0xomega wrote: Ah, see I use the same screenname everywhere, though I've tried to segregate it from my real world identity as best as possible (inevitably over the years I fethed up somewhere along the way and I'm sure they are bridged together somewhere). I know others do the same as I've interacted with fellow dakkites on reddit and discord in the past (I do use discord for "other" games where there is not active discussion on my preferred channels).
Interestingly though, on multiple occasions I've recognized fellow dakkites on facebook, which is a more surprising thing as they are usually going by real names. I think for the most part its been because someone posts a thread on dakka and then posts a very similar/identical post on facebook (I thinkc thats how I ID'd HBMC once),then there was that time I spotted JohnHwangDD on FB because of his username (that or theres someone else out there with the same name who is also a 40k fan from California and its just a hell of a coincidence), pretty sure I spotted Kid_Kyoto on there too as the number of American 40k fans currently living in Egypt who have previously resided in China, etc. can't be too large of a number.
Ha, similar story here. I was looking up a Judge Dredd comic on Amazon the other day and ended up reading Kid Kyoto's reviews of some tube socks.
chaos0xomega wrote: Ah, see I use the same screenname everywhere, though I've tried to segregate it from my real world identity as best as possible (inevitably over the years I fethed up somewhere along the way and I'm sure they are bridged together somewhere). I know others do the same as I've interacted with fellow dakkites on reddit and discord in the past (I do use discord for "other" games where there is not active discussion on my preferred channels).
Interestingly though, on multiple occasions I've recognized fellow dakkites on facebook, which is a more surprising thing as they are usually going by real names. I think for the most part its been because someone posts a thread on dakka and then posts a very similar/identical post on facebook (I thinkc thats how I ID'd HBMC once),then there was that time I spotted JohnHwangDD on FB because of his username (that or theres someone else out there with the same name who is also a 40k fan from California and its just a hell of a coincidence), pretty sure I spotted Kid_Kyoto on there too as the number of American 40k fans currently living in Egypt who have previously resided in China, etc. can't be too large of a number.
Ha, similar story here. I was looking up a Judge Dredd comic on Amazon the other day and ended up reading Kid Kyoto's reviews of some tube socks.
LMFAO. Something similar happened to me. Forget if it was Kid Kyoto or someone else, but it was someone from dakka who I stumbled upon somewhere else online in a completely unrelated context (dont remember what exactly). It was bizarre, small world as they say lol.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/17 15:53:08
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
The_Real_Chris wrote: Oh forums are far superior for discussion - social media seems to be more about conversation and reaction.
So I have always been happy to see threads resurface if that discussion continues.
At the risk of contributing to topic drift, I entirely agree. I have no presence on Social Media. Discord only works for small groups. I have a couple Discords for actual gaming clubs, and channels focused on a specific game, manufacturer or podcast. Once a Discord gets too big it becomes useless. As an example, I only use the OPR Discord for asking rules questions and occasionally skimming it for inspiration. There is zero ability to have an extended topical conversation there and while they do have a traditional forum, it is much less used.
When it comes to extended discussions and posting anything of lasting value I generally narrow it down to my blog, Dakka and Lead Adventure. Maybe I won't get as much immediate feedback as at a social media but at least my material is preserved, easily searchable, and likely to be available for an extended amount of time.
As for ID, I use my same handle at most forums and it's not hard to figure out who I am IRL via my blogs. I'm not going to give my personal life or information about my family away on social media, but real anonymity is unattainable.
For me, the 'soul' of 40K was a light beer-and-pretzels wargame with the zany sci-fi/fantasy stuff layered on top. It was exactly the sort of game you'd get by taking a bunch of guys who had grown up playing WW2 historicals and then having them design sci-fi. Over time it slowly bloated in complexity and cognitive load until being hard reset by the reimagining in 8th- but in the interest of simplifying the core mechanics, it stripped out and pared down a lot of those mechanics that reflected its historical origins and made it feel like a wargame.
That's an interesting desire. You have stated clearly what I wish the soul of 40k was and what eventually drove me into the warm arms of One Page Rules' "Grimdark Future". However, when it comes to 40k, I don't think "...a light beer and pretzels" experience was originally (or perhaps ever) the case. Maybe it leaned that way a bit that at the beginning of 3rd and 8th (and briefly 10th) editions with their simpler rules and basic army lists, but it wasn't long before those gave way to bloat just as 10th seems to be. If "Soul" is connected in any way to the early forms of a thing, then it bears remembering that neither Rogue Trader nor 2nd Edition were streamlined games and both further complicated themselves rather quickly with layers of rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/17 16:18:17
For me, the 'soul' of 40K was a light beer-and-pretzels wargame with the zany sci-fi/fantasy stuff layered on top. It was exactly the sort of game you'd get by taking a bunch of guys who had grown up playing WW2 historicals and then having them design sci-fi. Over time it slowly bloated in complexity and cognitive load until being hard reset by the reimagining in 8th- but in the interest of simplifying the core mechanics, it stripped out and pared down a lot of those mechanics that reflected its historical origins and made it feel like a wargame.
That's an interesting desire. You have stated clearly what I wish the soul of 40k was and what eventually drove me into the warm arms of One Page Rules' "Grimdark Future". However, when it comes to 40k, I don't think "...a light beer and pretzels" experience was originally (or perhaps ever) the case. Maybe it leaned that way a bit that at the beginning of 3rd and 8th (and briefly 10th) editions with their simpler rules and basic army lists, but it wasn't long before those gave way to bloat just as 10th seems to be. If "Soul" is connected in any way to the early forms of a thing, then it bears remembering that neither Rogue Trader nor 2nd Edition were streamlined games and both further complicated themselves rather quickly with layers of rules.
I will freely agree that RT and 2nd were not exactly streamlined games and more representative of where 40K originated. But I came to 40K at the start of 3rd Ed, having cut my teeth on my dad's old copy of Advanced Squad Leader. For me, 40K's defining era was 3rd-5th, as a fairly light wargame still anchored in 1980s design principles but spearheaded by developers who designed for effect over tedious simulation. A double-sided quick reference sheet encapsulated all the core rules, and I could viably play the game mostly just using the one-page unit and wargear reference page at the back of my codex.
This is, of course, a purely subjective thing. Someone who came to 40K in 7th Ed and appreciated the sheer wealth of options and mechanics will have a different idea of what the 'soul' of 40K is, as will someone who started in 8th.
Like I said, I don't actually mind the more streamlined, less wargame and more war-themed-game approach. I just wish GW would holistically design around that ethos and make the core rules fun and engaging in their own right, not so bare-bones and dull that the game outright needs special rules to have any depth while still requiring a gakload of rolling to resolve anything. Grimdark Future is (deliberately) very light on chrome, but I find that its activation structure and limitations on what units can do in any given turn make for impactful decision-making, while being quicker to actually play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/17 17:11:56
I agree with catbarf wholeheartedly. There are aspects of 8th/9th/10th i like. There are aspects of 4th and 5th I like... theres not much of 6th and 7th I like lol. Implementation is of rules in the latest editions though leaves something to be desired IMO.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/17 21:49:58
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
I will freely agree that RT and 2nd were not exactly streamlined games and more representative of where 40K originated. But I came to 40K at the start of 3rd Ed, having cut my teeth on my dad's old copy of Advanced Squad Leader. For me, 40K's defining era was 3rd-5th, as a fairly light wargame still anchored in 1980s design principles but spearheaded by developers who designed for effect over tedious simulation. A double-sided quick reference sheet encapsulated all the core rules, and I could viably play the game mostly just using the one-page unit and wargear reference page at the back of my codex.
That is really good context to consider. 3rd edition was pretty streamlined. However, even RT and 2nd might seem like lighter fare if one's background at the time in was heavy games like ASL, Tractics, Starfleet Battles, etc....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/17 21:50:25
With the caveat that I find One Page Rules get stale quickly - yes, there's a legitimate tactical puzzle there, but it's always the same puzzle. With all units ultimately coming out of the same point buy table and all behaving in the same way, the breadth of possible interactions is small.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/17 22:26:25
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2023/10/18 00:36:04
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
With the caveat that I find One Page Rules get stale quickly - yes, there's a legitimate tactical puzzle there, but it's always the same puzzle. With all units ultimately coming out of the same point buy table and all behaving in the same way, the breadth of possible interactions is small.
Grimdark Future is a great game and I don't find it gets stale if you also use the points calculator to make new units... but that's in regards to the '2.x' edition. I cannot stand the new edition whatsoever, especially with how the maximum range of any weapon, including artillery, was capped at a pitiful 36". I have no idea what's going on with their design philosophy but they seem to chase casual play at the expense of being a proper wargame harder than even GW does now.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2023/10/18 00:56:04
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
^I agree that OPR doesn't quite have the crunch I'm looking for. But modern 40k doesn't either
"Peak 40k" being 3rd - 5th is understandable, but I'd have to include 2nd, even though it's on a totally different set of rules. Core factions were solidified, tournaments were played, and the WD battle reports were just perfection.
It's not something I've thought of recently, but I do distinctly remember 3rd and 4th edition being playable with the Quick Reference sheets and the compiled rules at the back of the codex. You'd occasionally have to leaf elsewhere but mostly just in edge scenarios, as most of the game and its interactions were very cut and dry.
I didn't play 5th but, by the time I'd dipped my toes into 6th later on, that was no longer the case.
With the caveat that I find One Page Rules get stale quickly - yes, there's a legitimate tactical puzzle there, but it's always the same puzzle. With all units ultimately coming out of the same point buy table and all behaving in the same way, the breadth of possible interactions is small.
I do think that there is always going to be some difference in opinion between those who are fine with simplicity in their army lists and those who want RPG style flavor.
I will say though that army lists aren't necessarily the best place to find variations on the tactical puzzle. Far better, I think to find that in the playing out of interesting scenarios. That may require reading outside the rulebook and having negotiations with your opponent but that's ok. By comparison, I think GW Codices reward list building far more than they encourage tactical play.
It's not something I've thought of recently, but I do distinctly remember 3rd and 4th edition being playable with the Quick Reference sheets and the compiled rules at the back of the codex. You'd occasionally have to leaf elsewhere but mostly just in edge scenarios, as most of the game and its interactions were very cut and dry.
I didn't play 5th but, by the time I'd dipped my toes into 6th later on, that was no longer the case.
For 3rd at least, there's a few hiccups regarding grenades, mainly because they're not placed in one spot but spread across the book. Frag is in assault, Krak is in vehicle, but that's the biggest hiccup.
2023/10/18 01:36:23
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
I do think that there is always going to be some difference in opinion between those who are fine with simplicity in their army lists and those who want RPG style flavor.
This guy gets it.
2023/10/18 01:38:35
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
Insectum7 wrote: ^I agree that OPR doesn't quite have the crunch I'm looking for. But modern 40k doesn't either
"Peak 40k" being 3rd - 5th is understandable, but I'd have to include 2nd, even though it's on a totally different set of rules. Core factions were solidified, tournaments were played, and the WD battle reports were just perfection.
I find 2nd ed mechanically fascinating. I've only read the rules and have never played it, its hard for me to say it was a *good* game per se, but the designers came up with some pretty fun mechanics.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/18 01:51:37
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
I do think that there is always going to be some difference in opinion between those who are fine with simplicity in their army lists and those who want RPG style flavor.
This guy gets it.
I'm not so sure. That might be a tremendous overgeneralization.
There is a vast gulf between 2nd ed or RT era design, and just how simplified OPR is. Arguably 3rd-era 40k is right in the middle between the two, where army lists are still simple, but there's still a ton of flavor to go around, because interesting tactival interactions still are made possible with increased resolution in the core rules. I'd even say that era offered detail if you wanted it, but you could also get by without it.
Insectum7 wrote: ^I agree that OPR doesn't quite have the crunch I'm looking for. But modern 40k doesn't either
"Peak 40k" being 3rd - 5th is understandable, but I'd have to include 2nd, even though it's on a totally different set of rules. Core factions were solidified, tournaments were played, and the WD battle reports were just perfection.
I find 2nd ed mechanically fascinating. I've only read the rules and have never played it, its hard for me to say it was a *good* game per se, but the designers came up with some pretty fun mechanics.
It's greatest strength was flavor. It was otherwise both great and incredibly clunky. Very gritty and tactile, and sorta hard to explain. The detail meant that you often couldn't help but tell a great story. I do recommend trying it if you can.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/18 01:58:40
I'll echo the sentiments earlier that this boils down to the fundamental dichotomy between more 'flavor' -- AKA more material for imagination, storytelling, and role playing -- vs more gameplay -- the pure enjoyment of solving an interesting but totally abstract puzzle.
GW wants Heresy to be the more RP-oriented space marine game and 40k to be the competitive gameplay-oriented space marine game. Unfortunately that means if you like RP but don't like space marines, you're outta luck. For that group 10e would certainly feel like it's losing its soul. It all just depends on your personal preferences.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/18 02:54:29
2023/10/18 02:57:12
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
I feel it's more that GW vacillates between the two extremes, seemingly at random, and with no real indication that they understand what they're doing or why they're doing it.
10th saw a reduction in bloat, but, typically, went too far and saw them remove too many things that didn't need such massive reductions (removal of combi-weapons and certain specialised melee weapons, the complete lack of variety and choice with psychic powers).
We're veering very close to the "simulation vs abstraction" argument, and that's an ugly place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/18 02:57:35