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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kingpbjames wrote:
Forums are a different beast than those heavily moderated social medias. I think only Reddit rivals it in functionality but I've read far better, in-depth discussions here than any thread I've seen there.

I think I'd prefer a heavier hand on moderation as opposed to some of the behaviour I've seen here.

The warhammer subreddits are a horrible place to actually discuss things due to the echo chamber effect that the upvote/downvote system generates. If a thread gets popular then the brainless hive mind swarms in and downvotes anything that goes against the mob mentality. That said the main subreddits are mostly just people posting painted model pictures.

I don't find Reddit to be useful for much information beyond the most current zeitgheist. Want to know something other than the most recent release? Sorry that's hundreds of posts ago,or a carefully constructed search. Even if you do find the relevant topic,you won't get any responses because it's not at the top.

I remember when moving over here from Warseer thinking what a positive breath of fresh air it is. Now Warseer that place was angry

I've always considered Reddit to be the equivalent of full body cancer of forums, as no matter the subject (geopolitics, wargaming, firearms) the echo chamber effect added to the sheer douchebagness of many a poster makes the experience at best useless, at worst painful to me. Without learning much anyways.

I pretty sure I remember a few times where it came up that dakka got a surge of negativity right after warseer closed as some of its angrier posters ended up here. Although I can't assess any of this myself.

Given that 10th Ed didn't really fix any of the problems people had with the overall game or direction GW is going in during 8th/9th then presumably people are just sick of rehashing the same discussions over and over again.

There probably isn't much discussion because all the life and character has been systematically erased from 40k, leaving only a pile of brown sludge.

I'm sure it's functional but I didn't get into a setting like 40k for a game that's every bit as enjoyable and exciting as downing a bucket of wallpaper paste.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kingpbjames wrote:
Forums are a different beast than those heavily moderated social medias. I think only Reddit rivals it in functionality but I've read far better, in-depth discussions here than any thread I've seen there.

I think I'd prefer a heavier hand on moderation as opposed to some of the behaviour I've seen here.

Please no. One of the nicest things about Dakka is that the mods take a largely hands-off approach.

So many other forums that are policed to a ridiculous degree by people who were given a little power and immediately started acting like little Hitlers.

It's a combination of bland core rules, bland indexes and a forum with a (well deserved) reputation for negativity and really abhorrent views.

Plus the codexes so far have been exceptionally boring and not all that interesting to talk about. They have been for the most part [Your Index + 4/5 extra detachments]. So if you're already down about your index and feel it has problems then new codexes on the horizon aren't exactly going to be a good vehicle for building hype or reigniting interest. Say what you want about 9th but seeing GW's willingness to mess with statlines and make improvements to units from their 3rd-8th edition values was legitimately exciting. As a Drukhari player how can you be excited for a future codex considering the treatment codexes have been getting so far, the Admech one especially?

"really abhorrent views"? Dakka has always had people with a wide range of views, but I haven't seen anyone advocating violence or anything here. Pretty sure they'd get moderated out.

Reddit is too much of an intentional echo chamber, though all online communities suffer from that eventually (dakka included). But it's designed in on Reddit.

I tried discord for a while for RPG stuff. But a more obnoxious and monetised version of IRC is not really appealing to me, forums have a different purpose.

People who think Dakka is a cesspool of negativity have lived a very sheltered life on the internet.

 Da Boss wrote:
"really abhorrent views"? Dakka has always had people with a wide range of views, but I haven't seen anyone advocating violence or anything here. Pretty sure they'd get moderated out.

Reddit is too much of an intentional echo chamber, though all online communities suffer from that eventually (dakka included). But it's designed in on Reddit.

I tried discord for a while for RPG stuff. But a more obnoxious and monetised version of IRC is not really appealing to me, forums have a different purpose.

Anything with an Algorithm will turn into an echo chamber by design. Anything with an upvote system will facilitate this internally.

Forums insofar don't suffer from it, but are also not really monetisable due to the fact of engagement being facilitateable through algorithms ergo advert exposure.

I don't feel dakka's particularly home to many wierdos, they might be a few, or some insufferable posters, but by and large i feel discussions remain quite civil ans reasonable, if sometimes heated.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Given that 10th Ed didn't really fix any of the problems people had with the overall game or direction GW is going in during 8th/9th then presumably people are just sick of rehashing the same discussions over and over again.

There was a pretty active thread about whether 10th had destroyed the spirit of the game.

It seems to me that traffic also moves here depending on where the good discussion topic are. The 40k forums will be hopping if someone has something interesting to say, but it will cool down if there aren't any good discussions.

I do think "edition fatigue" is something of a thing, and the fact that the game has weathered 10 editions kind of dampens enthusiasm. Back in the day, when people thought there might be a "definitive" edition, I sensed a lot more passion.

I'm certain edition fatigue will be a thing, in the sense that in the end, it doesn't seem to me that the core philosophy of GW about the successive editions of 40k actually change, so at heart, what has been broadly said for 8th and 9th remain relatively similar safe for rules specific, which, considering the very simple frame of 10th rules, is probably not as arcane as it used to be. Criticism (bad or constructive) drains the most ink but when you end up repeating the same stuff over and over again there comes a moment when there isn't much left to talk about.

40k drives a wargaming forum anyway I guess. By virtue of being the most well known. Although there are so many other cool games and aspects of our hobby that don't need to be GW tied but those don't get nearly enough attention, alas.

Dudeface 812319 11618351 wrote:

On the contrary, the current rules and codex design seems to be preventing the constant "omg what's the new hotness, what must we go buy now!!!!" trends that drove a lot of the conversation and hype, because remarkably, a lack of codex creep is killing off outrage and fewer people are scheming into the night to come up with "the list" due to everything in the codex being different from it's prior state. Stability in the game is creating quiet and stability in the community maybe?

Index comes out, all the classic marines in it. Scouts really good, RAS really good, people swarm out to buy them for the new edition, which isn't easy with how bad GW supply is. Other people buy in to the new termintors and sterguards with their new good rules. Codex comes out. Classic marine stuff removed, bike armies dead (am not sure how this is around the world, but here Mounted Combat of any kind has a TON of fans, no matter what game), new terminators nerfed, new sternguard nerfed. The "chapter" detachments half are bad, one is good, armies to be played are same looking. No bone thrown to BA/DA/SW, no one wants to invest in to The Way to play SW, out of fear that TWC will suffer the fate of bikers. Although the no one is no one outside of people who really want to play SW at tournaments.

Lack of codex creep is always a thing in early 3-4 books of any edition, or at least that was the case in 8th and 9th. That is why the initial power level and options of early books are so important, because if they are mid for early edition, they will be very bad by the end of it, especialy when the crazy books start to come out. Also you know what is the most stable thing? Death, death is the most stable thing. When enough people decide that an edition is the way it is, and the hype dies, then all the non super fans leave, and if the state continious for long enough even the super fans start to leave too. It happened to other hobbies, it can happen to GW games too.

WFB was like that, and had a huge entry cost for new players too. And w40k seems to oddly mirror that. How much does it cost to start a votan army. GW "fixing" of stuff seems to not to get in to rules, the thing that most often is the real problem, but they rather throw a blanket of "free" 200pts on an army and call it a day. But those 200pts aren't free from the players perspective, at least not as far money goes. Now I am sure GW loves the fact that people need to buy more and that their collections get invalidated. But at some point, especialy when people can't buy the stuff that is non optional to play an army, a lot of people will just quit or start buying recasts etc. But recasts often make people leave GW games and jump on to stuff like OPR, or play games they can play at 1/4th or even 1/5th of the cost of a w40k army. And unlike with a 1000$+ investment, switching it up or even dropping a 150-250$ investment does not sting as much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Please no. One of the nicest things about Dakka is that the mods take a largely hands-off approach.

So many other forums that are policed to a ridiculous degree by people who were given a little power and immediately started acting like little Hitlers.

Well there are subreddits which are heavy moderated, even extremly moderated. They are fun to read, but not that fun to engage with Sigmarxism is one of the best things one can read for either trying to wake up or to have a good chuckle. Although if one wants to real insanity expiriance any longer existing Star Wars or Marvel/DC reddits is the best. Dakka is the same kind of echo chamber as any other places that has practicaly no new users coming. I mean to a degree, I don't even think we have to post long threads. We could just do a 1/2 or agree/disagree posts, and we more or less know what other people would write/say/think. Dakka is good for enjoyment, looking at models painted by other people and this is probably just for me personaly, to see how english is used properly.

Always think the echo chamber nature of social media is a bit oversstated. Always seems to me the algorithm is more likely to throw people who hate eachother up against eachother than keep them away!

I never really posted much here due to the overwhelming negativity. I mostly stop by to read the Ork tactics thread, and hyperbole like "10e destroyed the spirit of the game" makes me nope right back out again. I'm a veteran of Warseer as well, and while that was bad, I also remember a lot more enthusiasm and creative posts between the whining and raging. In comparison, Dakka often feels like a handful of Grognards circling the drain. In the meantime, the 40K community is growing and I'm certainly enjoying 10e a lot more than 9e, so I just take my hobby joy elsewhere.

As someone who used post regularly, but now does so rarely, I'll say that the reason is that 40k has moved beyond me. The 9th edition CSM codex left me cold, and 10th hasn't fixed any of the issues that caused that. I'm perfectly happy playing 30k. I honestly don't care what happens in 40k anymore, and the lack of posts proves that.

There is an interesting take on the internet and echo chambers here




Dakka is fine, and a comfortable place to return to when the rest of the internet is all poopy

I have to say that I'm puzzled by the echo chamber accusation.

I can think of very few threads where there has been any sort of unanimous opinion.

I think the most echo-chambery aspects is we tend to skew older and perhaps less happy with the modern direction of the game.

It's a lot better than Reddit or something where popular posts get pushed up by default and unpopular posts get hidden.

 vipoid wrote:
I have to say that I'm puzzled by the echo chamber accusation.

I can think of very few threads where there has been any sort of unanimous opinion.

It's a complaining against the generally lightly moderated Dakka. Basically, some people expect a heavily moderated board that reflects their overall positive reflection of current 40k. Their feelings are hurt if they see otherwise. Thus the complaints about "negativity" on Dakka .

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I have to say that I'm puzzled by the echo chamber accusation.

I can think of very few threads where there has been any sort of unanimous opinion.

It's a complaining against the generally lightly moderated Dakka. Basically, some people expect a heavily moderated board that reflects their overall positive reflection of current 40k. Their feelings are hurt if they see otherwise. Thus the complaints about "negativity" on Dakka .

I think Dakka is fine. Milder than Warseer, but I liked dropping in before it died. (Warseer also had a politics forum, which was something else, let me tell you.)

As to posting, it seems to have a fair pace - some threads churn along with people posting in real time, others are the ones where you post, go away, and come back and see the replies.

In addition to the rise of social media, I think two other factors are in play. The first is that the internet isn't new. Forums were these cool things where you can meet up with fans of obscure games from around the world. Your current teenage/new gamer has never not had internet, or been without social media. So like anything else, it's taken for granted.

But for people of a certain age, forums were an outlet and if you go back 20 years, many of the users joining up were ones whose connection was finally decent enough to enable steady use, or who used computers for work and didn't realize forums were even a thing.

The other aspect is that GW is just doing less. Go back 20 years and you had 40k, WHFB and LotR, the Specialist Games were still fresh and active, 30k was emerging, etc.

Within those lines the movement was considerable. The shift from 2nd to 4th editions of 40k was huge, with major new factions, changes to core mechanics, lots to talk about. Similarly going from 5th to 7th WFHB was signfiicant. The game went from units that rarely broke 16 models into the fabled Death Stars. Card-based magic to dice.

LotR releases were also anticipated because stuff was coming out that wasn't in the movies.

Add in the constant price hikes, staff departures, rumors of financial disaster, and it literally was Interesting Times.

Now? Not so much, which is why I think the artisanal threads and minor games see so much traffic.

Hmmm......fully agreed Commissar. Fully agreed.

Yeah, he nailed a fair few things. But I also would tend to agree on your commentary about negativity being mostly a consequence of freer speech on dakka. This time as opposed to, for example discord servers. While I'm not on a wargaming discord, I'm on a few others were people with diverging views tend to quickly get silenced, mobbed, or banned, so in the end yeah, pretty much everyone left vibes the same way.

One difference I have noticed is in how the P&M board is used. My perception is that the numbers of conversion threads has dropped off a lot. It might be getting picked up by bigger traffic in P&M blogs, but maybe not. A gradual casualty of the "no model no rules" and the dropping of a lot of options in the newer kits perhaps? Or I just have rose tinted specs

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I have to say that I'm puzzled by the echo chamber accusation.

I can think of very few threads where there has been any sort of unanimous opinion.

It's a complaining against the generally lightly moderated Dakka. Basically, some people expect a heavily moderated board that reflects their overall positive reflection of current 40k. Their feelings are hurt if they see otherwise. Thus the complaints about "negativity" on Dakka .

And the "abhorrent views" too. JFC, that one was a knee slapper...

Oh noes, someone said some bad things about Senpai GW!

 Flinty wrote:
One difference I have noticed is in how the P&M board is used. My perception is that the numbers of conversion threads has dropped off a lot. It might be getting picked up by bigger traffic in P&M blogs, but maybe not. A gradual casualty of the "no model no rules" and the dropping of a lot of options in the newer kits perhaps? Or I just have rose tinted specs

No, you're right. I'm an avid converter and have seen a major dropoff of quantity of conversions online. When you see Primaris Captain #13 for the nth time online it tends to get a bit repetitive and just highlights the homogenisation of (IMO), one of the best aspects of this hobby.

Modern GW models are intended to discourage kitbashing and conversion most of the time as are there rules (from what I know) but there are still kits aimed at that sort of thing being produced for stuff like Stargrave, Frostgrave and Oathmark.

Some great kitbashing and conversion being done in the non-Peter Jackson inspired LOTR wargaming blogs around.

 Da Boss wrote:
Modern GW models are intended to discourage kitbashing and conversion most of the time as are there rules (from what I know) but there are still kits aimed at that sort of thing being produced for stuff like Stargrave, Frostgrave and Oathmark.

Some great kitbashing and conversion being done in the non-Peter Jackson inspired LOTR wargaming blogs around.

Actually making me realise I haven't bought any new model from GW for at least the past 2 to 3 years, got everything second hand.

But that's sad to here that the new kits discourage conversions...

Complete tripe. You can still absolutely kitbash, you just can't swap Marine torso and legs anymore which is apparently the only thing that counts as kitbashing.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
But for people of a certain age, forums were an outlet and if you go back 20 years, many of the users joining up were ones whose connection was finally decent enough to enable steady use, or who used computers for work and didn't realize forums were even a thing.

I think I joined my first forums back in 2001 in middle school when I started to have fairly regular access to the internet. Many of those forums are long gone now and the few that are left have often whittled their active members down to a fraction of what they had at their peak.