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Title says it all. With 10th edition buffing the Toughness of all vehicles, I'm finding dealing with vehicles with a T of 10 or more really challenging to deal with en masse. Lascannons have super swingy Damage output, Grav has a poor range and low AP.. Infantry melee weapons have a hard time wounding, anything other than a Thunder Hammer seems weaksauce

How do you deal with T 10+ vehicles in your games when there's more than one or two of them? Without spending a ton of points.. Detachment shenanigans? Kitting key units with certain character (buffs)? Armiger Knights as allies?

First off, do you need to deal with them? Can you win the game without killing them?
Yes, they'll be wiping out your troops, but can you claim victory by avoiding them?
Can you drop reserves behind them, to pull them from your main objectives?

It sounds like you are playing an Imperial army. Which one? Thunderhammer suggests Marines.

I'm playing loyalist Marines, but I am looking for AntiTank ideas for any faction really. I'm trying to understand how GW expects people to be able to deal with tanks in general in this edition, regardless of faction.

"Ignoring tanks altogether" works as long as there are one or two tanks, but avoiding four or more is impossible with the small table sizes in modern 40K

Guess observing LI games has twisted my brain to a setting where the idea that one needs half a dozen Lascannon shots to down something like a huimble Rhino just feels.. off, youknow? Therefore, I'm sure I'm missing something obvious from either the unit/wargear selections on offer, or do not understand how to effectively coax the detachment abilities etc

OK, thanks for the extra info.
What do you mean by 'low points value games'? 1000 points? Just to get an idea on the number of units to look at.

From my time playing Marines, I took missile launchers for half my tactical squads. Krak might still not be strong enough against T10 (It isn't if still S9).
Also, Psykers. Do Librarians do anything against tanks? Smite looks to do something, if you can roll those 6s.
The +1 to Wound rolls from Chaplains should help for any melee weapons of S6 and up.
I don't have the codex, so I'm going off the Index cards.

The OC value in 10th edition was what I was specifically referring to, about claiming victory. That or Battleline. A small squad should be able to out-score a tank on an objective.

if your opponents routinely bring 4 battle tanks to a small game, they wont have many points left for other things like screening or scoring so you need to exploit that.

Cheapish things that hit hard to counter the tanks would be things like 3 eradicators coming on from strategic reserves to get straight into range, or a squad of chainfist terminators arriving by rapid ingress to get an easy charge (drop down behind a wall to block line of sight if you can, then jump out next turn).

Cheapish things for being sneaky and scoring would be scouts and the combi weapon lieutenant (lone operative).

Taking a few lascannons here and there also never hurts.

At the moment I'm playing a lot of Eldar & Drukari.
I don't have much issue with T10+ vehicles.

In my Drukari I'm fielding various mixes of Talos & Scourges.
2 units of the scourges are armed with Dark Lances. I keep them in deep strike until T2, see where they need to be, drop in, spend pain tokens to allow them re-rolls in the shooting, & light the target(s) up.
Meanwhile the Talos units are sporting either Heat Lances or Haywire blasters on their tales.
I don't expect melee attacks to be effective vs most vehicles.

My Eldar? I've built them in 4 1k pt sections.
*Section #1: Rangers, Shroud Runners, & for the AT work I've included 3 squads of Harliquinn Skyweavers with Haywire Blasters. Sometimes the Skyweavers are held in reserve, other times they hide behind terrain. Fate Dice make sure the target takes those Dev wounds
*Section 2: Fire Dragons mounted in wave serpents. + Fate Dice.
*section 3: Wraithguard in wave serpents. + Fate dice
*section 4: Other Eldar stuff - Avatar, Wraith Lords with Brightlances, support weapons, various characters, etc.
Other than the avatar? I don't melee vehicles unless it's a last ditch effort.

Those Eldar & Drukhari weapons sound great, and pain token / fate dice shenanigans will help 5+ to wound rolls tremendously no doubt

Terminators with chain fists teleporting and then charging sounds like something that could work indeed. So that's why the new Indomi kit came with chainfists for everyone, to counter the 10th ed vehicles..

Keep those ideas coming! Good stuff

To clariy, low points value games = games below 1500 points (750-1500)

I already altered one of my 750 points lists, and got a significant theoretical AT boost into a 760 point list. Termie Chaplain leading a squad of chainfist terminators aint no joke against vehicles I was also considering a dreadnought, which is 135pts, but the 4+ invulns and deep strike on the terminators is probably worth the extra 50 points (no synergy with the chappie either with the dread)

The Grav Cannons have that shorter range, but the math on them still puts them ahead of Lascannons if you make the effort to get them there. You could always Drop Pod them in, and if you're only bothering with 5 man Dev Squads you can get 2 units in a single Pod. 8 Grav Cannons is sure to be a bad day for someone. If I were doing this I'd try to bring Lascannons in the back field too, and reinforce the Drop-Grav with that longer ranged support.

Multi Meltas remain good with the numbers too. Personally I'd just bring a mix of all three and deploy accordingly. The nice thing about Grav and Meltas is their multiple shots allow them to pull double-duty against non Vehicles too.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Grav Cannons have that shorter range, but the math on them still puts them ahead of Lascannons if you make the effort to get them there. You could always Drop Pod them in, and if you're only bothering with 5 man Dev Squads you can get 2 units in a single Pod. 8 Grav Cannons is sure to be a bad day for someone. If I were doing this I'd try to bring Lascannons in the back field too, and reinforce the Drop-Grav with that longer ranged support.

Multi Meltas remain good with the numbers too. Personally I'd just bring a mix of all three and deploy accordingly. The nice thing about Grav and Meltas is their multiple shots allow them to pull double-duty against non Vehicles too.

Against a T7-11 vehicle, you're looking at...

Math contained within.


Summary: Grav-Cannons expect to do just about as well or better than Lascannons against Vehicles, even if the Las get Heavy and the Grav does not.
Monsters are a problem if you rely on Grav, though.

Was the math really needed to determine this? No, but I like math.

Most of my armies prioritize loading up on as much AT as they can because I hate feeling helpless against tanks. Space elves are pretty good at fielding lots of AT in smaller games. War walkers with bright lances are cheap and benefit tremendously from the rerolls provided by their detachment. Ditto vypers, though they're less cost-effective. Dragons, especially in a falcon, are good at their job. Drukhari just have dark lances all over the place.

And the thing about smaller games is that those anti-tank weapons aren't *that* terrible at helping against non-horde infantry. Like, if I have to "waste" a lance shot on a space marine and you only have like, 20 marines on the table? That's still 5% of your marines gone to a single attack. So I can lean into anti-tank guns without worrying that they'll be wasted in a common matchup.

I haven't played my marines at all this edition, but my inclination would be to take some lascannon devastators, mix some lascannons into my tactical squads, and probably bring along my anti-tank dreadnaughts... then just oath of moment the thing I want to kill each turn.

Demolisher cannons? IDK.

Demolisher Cannon looks dope, indeed. At 190 points for a Vindicator, its on the more expensive side of AT choices, but could be oneshotting T10 tanks with some hot dice. If it weren't for the relatively short range, I'd consider replacing my artillery goto (Whirlwind) with one..

Play the better anti tank tank. Now the ball is in their court.

Good contenders are the space marine gladiator lancer or the custodian caladius. Even the plain landraider is a good choise with its godhammer lascannons.

Necron have some fun options.

Doomstalker is a beautiful modal and the Doomsday blaster does d6+1 S14 shots. 135pts, very long range, and it can kill infantry or vehicles or monsters.

Scarab Swarms in particular are built for killing vehicles and are very cheap. Just get close and they can self destruct to inflict mortal wounds on a nearby target and it gets bonus damage against vehicles specifically. Have a spyder follow them around the board so you can regain a swarm every round. 155pts to have 6 scarab swarms with a spyder, very good bargain.

Heavy Destroyers with gauss destructors are also very anti-tank, they are S14 and reroll 1's on wound rolls against vehicles. My only beef with them is they are kinda pricy at 50pts each while they only get 1 ranged shot with their destructors, but they can do the job pretty well.

 Dork Eldar wrote:
Necron have some fun options.

Doomstalker is a beautiful modal and the Doomsday blaster does d6+1 S14 shots. 135pts, very long range, and it can kill infantry or vehicles or monsters.

Scarab Swarms in particular are built for killing vehicles and are very cheap. Just get close and they can self destruct to inflict mortal wounds on a nearby target and it gets bonus damage against vehicles specifically. Have a spyder follow them around the board so you can regain a swarm every round. 155pts to have 6 scarab swarms with a spyder, very good bargain.

Heavy Destroyers with gauss destructors are also very anti-tank, they are S14 and reroll 1's on wound rolls against vehicles. My only beef with them is they are kinda pricy at 50pts each while they only get 1 ranged shot with their destructors, but they can do the job pretty well.

Just got my first game in with a doomstalker yesterday, and I think it needs a buddy.

The grenades and tank shock strats are good ways of doing mortals with almost any army. Also look for the anti-vehicle and devastating wounds keywords



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oh and lethal hits

 PaddyMick wrote:
The grenades and tank shock strats are good ways of doing mortals with almost any army. Also look for the anti-vehicle and devastating wounds keywords



Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and lethal hits

How many mortal wounds can you realistically score to a vehicle using the Grenades stratagem? If you cannot deal enough damage in one turn. the tank will retaliate against the infantry (and if it has Heavy Flamer sponsons, that infantry unit is in trouble). 6 times 4+ means 0-6 mortals, averaging to 3, that's not a lot against many vehicles with a T of 10+ which often have 10+ wounds as well..

Good thing to keep in mind though; In my last game, I had a single model from a squad remaining against a tank locked in melee.. I could have gone to tactical doctrine (was playing Gladius det), fallen back, and used the grenades strat, that would have done at least something, instead of just dying with no chance of scoring any damage

Who says the Grenade is the soul damage source its a supplement. in my sisters list I have meltas for some damage but I Grenade every turn and they avg 15 across the game.

I'm also not trying to kill every tank on the board usually just the one or two most threatening and yes sometimes you have to sacrifice a squad so the following turn you kill the tank

You can also just out objective control

Sisters are a bitt of an odd army as the moment as I understand it. It is very attrition based. And with miracle dice you can milk units more then usual.

Thousand Sons have some ok'ish options.

Mutaliths, Forgefiends, Predator Annihilators, Ahriman, etc.

It also helps that they're all fairly multipurpose (even the lascannon tank), so are usually handy to have 1-2 of anyway, depending on what ones you want. Does open you up to anti-tank hits yourself though, especially in low point games, which can be very swingy.

You'll never keep enough cabal points on the board to remove armour saves or doombolts that regularly (besides Ahriman's 1-off), so you don't have to value them as highly as you would in bigger games.

Also, never forget your little super-heroes, the Tzaangor Enlightened. Can they hurt tanks? Not really. Can they dance around tanks, and win through VPs? Yeah. Probably the best 45pts you can spend on "anti-tank" army performance.in the entire list.

I don't have much experience in 10th but my main enemy for any game I've played so far is Grey Knights rocking a Dreadknight & a Thunderhawk Trasport in 1,500 PTS games. I've chipped the Thunderhawk down over 2-3 turns with just a Predator Annihilator a few times (3 turn one He got lucky rolls or it would have died on my 2nd try, granted he failed it's last save to a Chaplain Bolter round that game so hilarity all around) & the Dreadknight has died in melee vs a Chaplain lead full Bladeguard squad cause +1 to wound on D2 swords is funny (I'd say this ones 50/50 odds since they crumpled him one game then semi-failed in another).

Don't forget that the Razorback gives re-roll wound rolls to the squad, probably Devastator's, that got out that turn vs what the Razorback shot at, so if "Drop Pod Melta/Grav Suprise" it's off the menu that can be a interesting mobile backup option (& it can even select a Twin-Linked 1-shot Lascannon as a dedicated Anti-Tank option).

Also sometime weight of fire just works cause if you force enough saves on something with a 2+ save it's gona fail them eventually & since split-fire is a thing we can do might as well chuck those 0AP/-1AP Bolter's at something if they don't have a better target.

 tauist wrote:
I'm playing loyalist Marines, but I am looking for AntiTank ideas for any faction really. I'm trying to understand how GW expects people to be able to deal with tanks in general in this edition, regardless of faction.

"Ignoring tanks altogether" works as long as there are one or two tanks, but avoiding four or more is impossible with the small table sizes in modern 40K

Guess observing LI games has twisted my brain to a setting where the idea that one needs half a dozen Lascannon shots to down something like a huimble Rhino just feels.. off, youknow? Therefore, I'm sure I'm missing something obvious from either the unit/wargear selections on offer, or do not understand how to effectively coax the detachment abilities etc

The simplest answer to your question is to take tanks of your own. They rebuilt the system this edition, and as normally happens when they do that, melee was the red headed step child. They rebuilt the system in what 7th? 8th? And they forgot about all the "bonus" attacks various units got and had to bandaid it with "Shock Assault". I would expect to see a bandaid for melee vs vehicle later in the edition or early in the next one. For now my suggestion would be Chain Fists and Dev/Mortal Wounds.


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 tauist wrote:
Demolisher Cannon looks dope, indeed. At 190 points for a Vindicator, its on the more expensive side of AT choices, but could be oneshotting T10 tanks with some hot dice. If it weren't for the relatively short range, I'd consider replacing my artillery goto (Whirlwind) with one..

Don't forget the Gladiator Lancer and Predator Annihilator. The Annihilator is cheapest and has a good quantity of quality output. The Lancer able to reroll damage (among other things) is arguably worth the points increase and slight decrease in shots.

Tyranids have one of the weakest anti armour options of all armies, in a vehicle heavy meta edition. They lack tank shock and grenades. Their heavy venom cannons are S9, and their only ranged anti armour weapons are the tyrannofex (with a highly swingy 2D6 damage 2 shot gun) and zoanthropes. They need to battleshock tanks and have a neurolictor within 12" to give the entire army +1 to wound. Which isnt easy to do.

sambojin wrote:
Thousand Sons have some ok'ish options.

Mutaliths, Forgefiends, Predator Annihilators, Ahriman, etc.

It also helps that they're all fairly multipurpose (even the lascannon tank), so are usually handy to have 1-2 of anyway, depending on what ones you want. Does open you up to anti-tank hits yourself though, especially in low point games, which can be very swingy.

You'll never keep enough cabal points on the board to remove armour saves or doombolts that regularly (besides Ahriman's 1-off), so you don't have to value them as highly as you would in bigger games.

Also, never forget your little super-heroes, the Tzaangor Enlightened. Can they hurt tanks? Not really. Can they dance around tanks, and win through VPs? Yeah. Probably the best 45pts you can spend on "anti-tank" army performance.in the entire list.

Force staves pick up DW. Ahriman and a squad sorcerer hitting a vehicle on an objective ( likely in a small game ) can go fishing.

5 * .833 * .333 * 3 = 4.2
3 * .666 * .333 * 2 = 1.3

That's a decent amount of hurt for 235 points and comes close to 4 lascannons. You just have to be brave enough to charge.

A tank shooting into it's own combat doesn't generally do much. You only have to worry about dreadnoughts in that regard.


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IloveIceTea wrote:
Tyranids have one of the weakest anti armour options of all armies, in a vehicle heavy meta edition. They lack tank shock and grenades. Their heavy venom cannons are S9, and their only ranged anti armour weapons are the tyrannofex (with a highly swingy 2D6 damage 2 shot gun) and zoanthropes. They need to battleshock tanks and have a neurolictor within 12" to give the entire army +1 to wound. Which isnt easy to do.

A Broodlood and 10 Genestealers can drop 11 wounds on T10 3+ for 230 points.

3 Hive Guard with SC do 5 damage for 110. Pretty short range though.