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I’m not going to lie; the idea of converting a Golden Girls squad makes me happy.

Picture it: Terra, 30948…

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

This is also why I think representation matters not just directly to those being represented, but also for the way those people are perceived by everyone else. When the 'other' is properly represented in the media we consume, it eventually stops being 'other'.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Unfortunately for me one of the first great examples for positive minority representation that comes to mind is The Cosby Show, which of course now makes me wince. :/

Damnit.

Ummmm.......maybe think of the Jeffersons, instead?

A good idea, but for better or for worse Cosby is the one my family watched.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

This is also why I think representation matters not just directly to those being represented, but also for the way those people are perceived by everyone else. When the 'other' is properly represented in the media we consume, it eventually stops being 'other'.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Unfortunately for me one of the first great examples for positive minority representation that comes to mind is The Cosby Show, which of course now makes me wince. :/

Damnit.

Ummmm.......maybe think of the Jeffersons, instead?

A good idea, but for better or for worse Cosby is the one my family watched.

I see with some of my younger friends it’s Blizzard, clearly a lot of passionate people working for the company that want to do the best.
And management that needs a thorough shake through.

Also this made it onto the defranco show on YouTube, a little embarrassing.
I have some thoughts, which I may write up later.

Here we go, down into the fire and the flames, but frig it. I hate doing this; I don't want the anxiety and waste my time debating again online. But here we go.

Female Custodes shouldn't be a thing. There, I said it: one compelling lore argument is that the big reason why the Emperor made the Astartes only male is because he was afraid that if they were made both out of males and females is the danger they might find a way to reproduce. This would mean if they could create Space Marine children, they would, in all likelihood, take control over humanity.

So, if the Emperor felt that way about the Astartes, wouldn't he have the same sentiment toward the Custodes?

Now, on to the "real world" reason why there shouldn't be female Space Marines or Custodes. I find it incredibly ironic and hypocritical that the people who accuse those of not liking the Femcustodes do so out of a "lack of empathy" because their wish to have female Astartes and Custodes shows an incredible level of lack of empathy. The definition of empathy or one of them is (and this is the definition they refer to is: "Capacity to understand another person's point of view or the result of such understanding." This is also shown by using such demeaning terms as "incel", "misogynist", and assuming race, gender, etc.

This shows that they need to have shallow physical similarities, such as race and gender, to identify with a character or faction, etc and believe that a lot of people who share these facets need these things as much. Those who agree with them but do not share these things show a level of arrogance that they believe people who are part of minorities need to share such skin-deep similarities to identify with these things. Yes, there are people who are women who demand female Astartes, by the Emperor. I've seen many online, and some have shown an incredible level of bigotry and misandry. But in truth, each person, whether they be a minority or not, is an individual, and many can identify with people who have different skin tones, genders, etc. I'll use myself as one example; I sympathise a lot with Nico Robin from One Piece not because I have an equally tragic backstory (I've had a bad one, sure, but not the same) but because we're both bookish introverts with a thirst for knowledge and love for weird things most people find ugly, etc. The difference in gender and that she's an animated character is irrelevant.

Another incredibly anecdotal example, which I feel is a powerful one, is a few years back, I got a PM on fanfiction dot net from a man telling me that he named his son after the main character from my Secret War stories, Attelus Kaltos; he also happened to be black and from Africa. Why did he do this? Because he found identification with Attelus, who so happened to be a pale, white dude. He empathised with Attelus' struggles and outlooks. If he cared about the level of melanin in the skin of a character over their personality and strifes, he would've named his son after Marcel Torris, who so happened to have similar levels of melanin. Do the people who want not to have female Custodes are they superhuman Adonises? No, well, probably not. I haven't met any of them face-to-face, but that doesn't stop them from liking them or maybe even finding something of their personalities in them.

We find this again and again in 40k, the personalities aligning with a faction so choosing them. The big, loud guy who loved the Orks so collects them, yelling WAAAGHHH! When declaring it during their game of 40k.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people love to see themselves physically represented in fiction, and that's an understandable sentiment, but there are other ways to get that. Make your own Space Marine chapter of female marines and give them heads with feminine features, and if you really want to, green stuff on boob plates. More power to you! They're your minis and headcanon. Paint your marines like the pride flag or Trans flag. Sure, idiots like me might find it a bit cringeworthy, but that's your prerogative. Your minis are your minis, and that's that. Many struggles are inherent due to your gender or skin colour, but a lot of fiction is allegorical. The X-men is allegorical to the struggle of black people fighting for equal rights in the 20th century. But do you think that having a female Custodes would have any struggles that are in line with a woman of the current year? Frig no, she'd be just like the other Custodes, dutiful to a greater or lesser extent, big, strong etc. Because all the change is that she might have slightly more feminine features and maybe boob plates and longer hair, and that'd be it! The change is superficial and drains out some of the uniqueness of the setting. Why? I'm pretty sure there aren't many Science Fantasy settings that have four gendered factions, two of which work closely with one another, and this, I believe, decreases representation if you make even one of them mixed because it allows four unique options for people to play. Making them more like Spartans, or as people have pointed out, Stormcast Eternals. Also, the big reason why people liked female Stormcast Eternals is because there's no need for extensive and painstaking genetic modification to make them; it's just pure magic to make them.

I now go back, again, to the obvious lack of empathy of people who celebrate this change and/or demand female Space Marines and likely why they argue from a "real world" perspective while those who don't like it argue from a lore perspective? It's because, in all likelihood, those who don't want the change love the lore and accept it for what it is. They hold it in much higher regard and very likely see how shallow this change it, even if on a subconscious level. The pro-change side seems to lack the empathy to even try to understand why people don't want the change. This is one of the many reasons why this change shouldn't happen; the change is to appeal to people who believe their perspective is above all others and won't even try to emphasise with their detractors, which is a damned red flag if you ask me.

Thank you for reading my big wall of text, and I hope you're having a good day.

You got a reference for that baby thing, heard it said a lot but never seen it written anywhere, I’m not a reader of the heresy books so could easy have missed it.

As for the rest of your post, you are truly missing the point of representation and how it works.

It’s been said plenty on here already but “just make your marines” female doesn’t work. Because the community lambasts anyone who does. From not getting games to getting vile hate messages online. It isn’t that simple.

One thing that gives me hope for his community is over the years each time the topic comes up it is a bit less toxic and more accepting. We are making progress. A few years again I raised a thread about female marines and it was shut in minutes because of the horrific stuff said in it. Now for the most part we can have the discussion. Still no compelling reason to keep the lore as is but a more civilised discussion. And it’s great to see more people on here who are able to open about who they are, still work to do but this move by gw is a good one, please marines next.

Andykp wrote:

Spoiler:

 Adrassil wrote:
Here we go, down into the fire and the flames, but frig it. I hate doing this; I don't want the anxiety and waste my time debating again online. But here we go.

Female Custodes shouldn't be a thing. There, I said it: one compelling lore argument is that the big reason why the Emperor made the Astartes only male is because he was afraid that if they were made both out of males and females is the danger they might find a way to reproduce. This would mean if they could create Space Marine children, they would, in all likelihood, take control over humanity.

So, if the Emperor felt that way about the Astartes, wouldn't he have the same sentiment toward the Custodes?

Now, on to the "real world" reason why there shouldn't be female Space Marines or Custodes. I find it incredibly ironic and hypocritical that the people who accuse those of not liking the Femcustodes do so out of a "lack of empathy" because their wish to have female Astartes and Custodes shows an incredible level of lack of empathy. The definition of empathy or one of them is (and this is the definition they refer to is: "Capacity to understand another person's point of view or the result of such understanding." This is also shown by using such demeaning terms as "incel", "misogynist", and assuming race, gender, etc.

This shows that they need to have shallow physical similarities, such as race and gender, to identify with a character or faction, etc and believe that a lot of people who share these facets need these things as much. Those who agree with them but do not share these things show a level of arrogance that they believe people who are part of minorities need to share such skin-deep similarities to identify with these things. Yes, there are people who are women who demand female Astartes, by the Emperor. I've seen many online, and some have shown an incredible level of bigotry and misandry. But in truth, each person, whether they be a minority or not, is an individual, and many can identify with people who have different skin tones, genders, etc. I'll use myself as one example; I sympathise a lot with Nico Robin from One Piece not because I have an equally tragic backstory (I've had a bad one, sure, but not the same) but because we're both bookish introverts with a thirst for knowledge and love for weird things most people find ugly, etc. The difference in gender and that she's an animated character is irrelevant.

Another incredibly anecdotal example, which I feel is a powerful one, is a few years back, I got a PM on fanfiction dot net from a man telling me that he named his son after the main character from my Secret War stories, Attelus Kaltos; he also happened to be black and from Africa. Why did he do this? Because he found identification with Attelus, who so happened to be a pale, white dude. He empathised with Attelus' struggles and outlooks. If he cared about the level of melanin in the skin of a character over their personality and strifes, he would've named his son after Marcel Torris, who so happened to have similar levels of melanin. Do the people who want not to have female Custodes are they superhuman Adonises? No, well, probably not. I haven't met any of them face-to-face, but that doesn't stop them from liking them or maybe even finding something of their personalities in them.

We find this again and again in 40k, the personalities aligning with a faction so choosing them. The big, loud guy who loved the Orks so collects them, yelling WAAAGHHH! When declaring it during their game of 40k.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people love to see themselves physically represented in fiction, and that's an understandable sentiment, but there are other ways to get that. Make your own Space Marine chapter of female marines and give them heads with feminine features, and if you really want to, green stuff on boob plates. More power to you! They're your minis and headcanon. Paint your marines like the pride flag or Trans flag. Sure, idiots like me might find it a bit cringeworthy, but that's your prerogative. Your minis are your minis, and that's that. Many struggles are inherent due to your gender or skin colour, but a lot of fiction is allegorical. The X-men is allegorical to the struggle of black people fighting for equal rights in the 20th century. But do you think that having a female Custodes would have any struggles that are in line with a woman of the current year? Frig no, she'd be just like the other Custodes, dutiful to a greater or lesser extent, big, strong etc. Because all the change is that she might have slightly more feminine features and maybe boob plates and longer hair, and that'd be it! The change is superficial and drains out some of the uniqueness of the setting. Why? I'm pretty sure there aren't many Science Fantasy settings that have four gendered factions, two of which work closely with one another, and this, I believe, decreases representation if you make even one of them mixed because it allows four unique options for people to play. Making them more like Spartans, or as people have pointed out, Stormcast Eternals. Also, the big reason why people liked female Stormcast Eternals is because there's no need for extensive and painstaking genetic modification to make them; it's just pure magic to make them.

I now go back, again, to the obvious lack of empathy of people who celebrate this change and/or demand female Space Marines and likely why they argue from a "real world" perspective while those who don't like it argue from a lore perspective? It's because, in all likelihood, those who don't want the change love the lore and accept it for what it is. They hold it in much higher regard and very likely see how shallow this change it, even if on a subconscious level. The pro-change side seems to lack the empathy to even try to understand why people don't want the change. This is one of the many reasons why this change shouldn't happen; the change is to appeal to people who believe their perspective is above all others and won't even try to emphasise with their detractors, which is a damned red flag if you ask me.

Thank you for reading my big wall of text, and I hope you're having a good day.

You got a reference for that baby thing, heard it said a lot but never seen it written anywhere, I’m not a reader of the heresy books so could easy have missed it.

As for the rest of your post, you are truly missing the point of representation and how it works.

It’s been said plenty on here already but “just make your marines” female doesn’t work. Because the community lambasts anyone who does. From not getting games to getting vile hate messages online. It isn’t that simple.

One thing that gives me hope for his community is over the years each time the topic comes up it is a bit less toxic and more accepting. We are making progress. A few years again I raised a thread about female marines and it was shut in minutes because of the horrific stuff said in it. Now for the most part we can have the discussion. Still no compelling reason to keep the lore as is but a more civilised discussion. And it’s great to see more people on here who are able to open about who they are, still work to do but this move by gw is a good one, please marines next.

Only the Emperor himself has any understanding of the gene-alchemy. Some Custodes probably understand enough to work it, but have no desire to try and alter it.

 Adrassil wrote:


Female Custodes shouldn't be a thing. There, I said it: one compelling lore argument is that the big reason why the Emperor made the Astartes only male is because he was afraid that if they were made both out of males and females is the danger they might find a way to reproduce. This would mean if they could create Space Marine children, they would, in all likelihood, take control over humanity.

I don't think this is actually a lore argument though. Don't get me wrong, it is a plausible explanation for things depicted in the lore, but unless it actually appears in the lore, it is not a lore argument, no matter how plausibly it might explain things that do appear in the lore.

 Adrassil wrote:


Now, on to the "real world" reason why there shouldn't be female Space Marines or Custodes. I find it incredibly ironic and hypocritical that the people who accuse those of not liking the Femcustodes do so out of a "lack of empathy" because their wish to have female Astartes and Custodes shows an incredible level of lack of empathy. The definition of empathy or one of them is (and this is the definition they refer to is: "Capacity to understand another person's point of view or the result of such understanding." This is also shown by using such demeaning terms as "incel", "misogynist", and assuming race, gender, etc.

Some people on the pro-fem side have described others as having a lack of empathy (I think- more on this later), and some of us have made assumptions about both gender and race of posters based on what they post. However, I mentioned earlier in the thread that I don't think I've actually seen anyone in this thread use the term incel or misogyny other than those who say people here are calling them incels or misogynists.

Now a couple caveats on that: the thread is long enough now that rechecking the whole thing is burdensome, and I'm not going to do it- I'm sure I've read every post in the thread at least once, and I don't remember it, but of course I could have missed something, especially if any posts have been removed by mods. If someone else feels the need, please correct me if I'm wrong (and quote the offence as proof). Also, we may have said that there are misogynists and incels in the hobby, some of whom play in stores and consciously or unconsciously make women feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, but that is not the same as accusing a fellow Dakkanaught of being an incel or a misogynist.

To get back to the empathy issue: I find it useful to differentiate between intellectual understanding and visceral understanding. The first is a product of the mind; the second is better descried as being a product of the heart.... Although that isn't really accurate, because the actual organ of the heart is not responsible for emotions at all, despite what romantics say.

Those who consider themselves empathic can intellectually understand the PTSD of a soldier who comes back from a theatre of war changed. We feel sympathy, we alter our behaviour to make that person feel safe and welcome in our company, and we defend them when others criticize them for actions that result from their PTSD because we understand their circumstances. But it's all just intellectual understanding.

The person who has the visceral understanding? That's the person who has also been to war and come home changed.

The difference between the two is that if they're out for a walk with their soldier friend, and a car backfires loudly and causes their friend to hit the deck, the one with intellectual understanding will get it; the one with visceral understanding will hit the deck with their friend, likely covering or being covered by them, because they've fething been there. They don't just get it, they've lived it.

There is a difference, and no matter who proud ANY of us (including myself) are of our powers of empathy, I think it's prudent to acknowledge that in most cases, empathy provides intellectual understanding at best.

 Adrassil wrote:

This shows that they need to have shallow physical similarities, such as race and gender, to identify with a character or faction, etc and believe that a lot of people who share these facets need these things as much.

I don't think people are actually saying this either.

Yes, people feel more included when they see a model in the game or a character in the lore who shares their physical characteristics, and yes, that will make them more likely to develop a lasting interest in the hobby- but that's not the same as "needing the model or character to share their characteristics in order to relate to it."

I think that one thing affecting everyone in the debate, and really, any debate in the media-driven, online world of the 21st century (again, myself included) is that when we react to people who take the opposite point of view, we aren't just reacting to that person and what they specifically have said- we're reacting to ALL of the people who take the opposite point of view and EVERYTHING that ALL of them have said. This is how we become polarized... Or radicalized, depending upon context and your point of view.

[

 Adrassil wrote:
I now go back, again, to the obvious lack of empathy of people who celebrate this change and/or demand female Space Marines and likely why they argue from a "real world" perspective while those who don't like it argue from a lore perspective? It's because, in all likelihood, those who don't want the change love the lore and accept it for what it is. They hold it in much higher regard and very likely see how shallow this change it, even if on a subconscious level. The pro-change side seems to lack the empathy to even try to understand why people don't want the change. This is one of the many reasons why this change shouldn't happen; the change is to appeal to people who believe their perspective is above all others and won't even try to emphasise with their detractors, which is a damned red flag if you ask me.

You make a well reasoned post, but this bit screams of "be tolerant of my intolerance"

Not all viewpoints deserve equal treatment.

Sarigar wrote:
Well, in 35 years of playing this game, I've encountered very few women who play. Generally, it was a spouse or significant other who would play for a bit and quit. Overall, they weren't interested in the game.

Granted, this is just the U.S. in multiple states but I'd imagine there is not a lot of women who play 40K in other countries.

Like many IPs, companies are trying to expand their audience to make more money. The challenge seems to be the more the company changes things to try and appeal to more people, it tends to have the opposite effect and appeal to less people. It is not about taking a comic and making it a movie. It is making significant changes to the core of the characters that is off-putting. It becomes bland and simply uninteresting.

I don't really care for this type of business as it feels very lazy and lacks a lot of creativity which is what made many of these IPs so popular and beloved.

40K is transitioning to become a lifestyle brand, though I guess it could be argued it already is. Do they make 40K plushies?

Because men would make inappropriate jokes, hit on them, and occasionally actively harass and threaten them.

there are a lot of women gamers, of all sorts. Gary Gygax literally said the same thing that you did right here about DnD. Which now has a SIGNIFICANT amount of women playing it. Why was gygax wrong? Because Gygax was a misogynist.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

Gaen wrote:
As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".

there's a reason i don't play at my local gamestore but gladly engage with the hobby in spaces where i feel more comfortable (including this place, most of the time)

Dakkadakka is a bastion for more conservative gamers who don't want women in the hobby though.

I mean it's better than twitter or reddit, but those bars are subterranean.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Adrassil wrote:
I now go back, again, to the obvious lack of empathy of people who celebrate this change and/or demand female Space Marines and likely why they argue from a "real world" perspective while those who don't like it argue from a lore perspective? It's because, in all likelihood, those who don't want the change love the lore and accept it for what it is. They hold it in much higher regard and very likely see how shallow this change it, even if on a subconscious level. The pro-change side seems to lack the empathy to even try to understand why people don't want the change. This is one of the many reasons why this change shouldn't happen; the change is to appeal to people who believe their perspective is above all others and won't even try to emphasise with their detractors, which is a damned red flag if you ask me.

You make a well reasoned post, but this bit screams of "be tolerant of my intolerance"

Not all viewpoints deserve equal treatment.

We also understand why people don't want the change. They don't want women in the hobby. A large set of men have always been incredibly hostile to women entering what are seen as traditionally male spaces. It's created long lasting active political movements.

Or maybee people don't like beeing told what they have to believe or do or dislike beeing considered something they aren't.
Hence why even Harvard had to admit that compelled diversity programms don't work at all since the statistics were rather compelling in 2016 no less published in their Harvard buissness review magazine as an exemple.

https://hbr.org/2016/07/why-diversity-programs-fail

Not Online!!! wrote:
Or maybee people don't like beeing told what they have to believe or do or dislike beeing considered something they aren't.
Hence why even Harvard had to admit that compelled diversity programms don't work at all since the statistics were rather compelling in 2016 no less published in their Harvard buissness review magazine as an exemple.

https://hbr.org/2016/07/why-diversity-programs-fail

Because they never actually followed them

stratigo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Or maybee people don't like beeing told what they have to believe or do or dislike beeing considered something they aren't.
Hence why even Harvard had to admit that compelled diversity programms don't work at all since the statistics were rather compelling in 2016 no less published in their Harvard buissness review magazine as an exemple.

https://hbr.org/2016/07/why-diversity-programs-fail

Because they never actually followed them

Or people don't like getting gaslight? No that couldn't be.

stratigo wrote:

Sarigar wrote:
Well, in 35 years of playing this game, I've encountered very few women who play. Generally, it was a spouse or significant other who would play for a bit and quit. Overall, they weren't interested in the game.

Granted, this is just the U.S. in multiple states but I'd imagine there is not a lot of women who play 40K in other countries.

Like many IPs, companies are trying to expand their audience to make more money. The challenge seems to be the more the company changes things to try and appeal to more people, it tends to have the opposite effect and appeal to less people. It is not about taking a comic and making it a movie. It is making significant changes to the core of the characters that is off-putting. It becomes bland and simply uninteresting.

I don't really care for this type of business as it feels very lazy and lacks a lot of creativity which is what made many of these IPs so popular and beloved.

40K is transitioning to become a lifestyle brand, though I guess it could be argued it already is. Do they make 40K plushies?

Because men would make inappropriate jokes, hit on them, and occasionally actively harass and threaten them.

there are a lot of women gamers, of all sorts. Gary Gygax literally said the same thing that you did right here about DnD. Which now has a SIGNIFICANT amount of women playing it. Why was gygax wrong? Because Gygax was a misogynist.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

Gaen wrote:
As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".

there's a reason i don't play at my local gamestore but gladly engage with the hobby in spaces where i feel more comfortable (including this place, most of the time)

Dakkadakka is a bastion for more conservative gamers who don't want women in the hobby though.

I mean it's better than twitter or reddit, but those bars are subterranean.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Adrassil wrote:
I now go back, again, to the obvious lack of empathy of people who celebrate this change and/or demand female Space Marines and likely why they argue from a "real world" perspective while those who don't like it argue from a lore perspective? It's because, in all likelihood, those who don't want the change love the lore and accept it for what it is. They hold it in much higher regard and very likely see how shallow this change it, even if on a subconscious level. The pro-change side seems to lack the empathy to even try to understand why people don't want the change. This is one of the many reasons why this change shouldn't happen; the change is to appeal to people who believe their perspective is above all others and won't even try to emphasise with their detractors, which is a damned red flag if you ask me.

You make a well reasoned post, but this bit screams of "be tolerant of my intolerance"

Not all viewpoints deserve equal treatment.

We also understand why people don't want the change. They don't want women in the hobby. A large set of men have always been incredibly hostile to women entering what are seen as traditionally male spaces. It's created long lasting active political movements.

Nice try. I reject the broad generalization you espouse against all male gamers. I've played RPGs since the early 80's and 40K since the late 80's. Those who want to participate do. If your experience has been all women are treated poorly in gaming, you may want to look within yourself.

stratigo wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

Gaen wrote:
As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".

there's a reason i don't play at my local gamestore but gladly engage with the hobby in spaces where i feel more comfortable (including this place, most of the time)

Dakkadakka is a bastion for more conservative gamers who don't want women in the hobby though.

I mean it's better than twitter or reddit, but those bars are subterranean.

the last time i was at my LGS buying a new kit, there was a man at one of the painting tables loudly talking about his fantasy to mutilate and kill the people who had recently stolen his truck. conversely, this place, being strictly over the internet, means i can pick and choose when i want to engage with people. if someone is being sexist (or just has an opinion i don't like), i can choose whether i want to engage or not. even a place like this on the internet is still nicer than a place with similar attitudes irl (most of the time; the last few days have certainly been rocky!)

Adrassil wrote:Female Custodes shouldn't be a thing. There, I said it: one compelling lore argument is that the big reason why the Emperor made the Astartes only male is because he was afraid that if they were made both out of males and females is the danger they might find a way to reproduce. This would mean if they could create Space Marine children, they would, in all likelihood, take control over humanity.

So, if the Emperor felt that way about the Astartes, wouldn't he have the same sentiment toward the Custodes?

This has never been written in any BL book, or GW product. This is entirely a fanon position. This is not "one compelling lore argument" or a "big reason", because it is not rooted at all in any material GW have produced.

There is no reason to suggest that Custodes and Astartes are even capable of reproduction.

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Or maybee people don't like beeing told what they have to believe or do or dislike beeing considered something they aren't.
Hence why even Harvard had to admit that compelled diversity programms don't work at all since the statistics were rather compelling in 2016 no less published in their Harvard buissness review magazine as an exemple.

https://hbr.org/2016/07/why-diversity-programs-fail

Because they never actually followed them

Or people don't like getting gaslight? No that couldn't be.

If this forum allowed politics. XD

I mean I'm pretty sure you haven't read the study anyways

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

Gaen wrote:
As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".

there's a reason i don't play at my local gamestore but gladly engage with the hobby in spaces where i feel more comfortable (including this place, most of the time)

Dakkadakka is a bastion for more conservative gamers who don't want women in the hobby though.

I mean it's better than twitter or reddit, but those bars are subterranean.

the last time i was at my LGS buying a new kit, there was a man at one of the painting tables loudly talking about his fantasy to mutilate and kill the people who had recently stolen his truck. conversely, this place, being strictly over the internet, means i can pick and choose when i want to engage with people. if someone is being sexist (or just has an opinion i don't like), i can choose whether i want to engage or not. even a place like this on the internet is still nicer than a place with similar attitudes irl (most of the time; the last few days have certainly been rocky!)

Well, you can do that IRL, but I understand your concern. That sounds like a really scary experience. More generally, I think a lot of nerds are just unfamiliar with women, or they do need to learn how to take care of themselves (being clean not only helps others' perception of you, but your perception of yourself, go figure).

We can encourage each other and discourage bad behavior as communities; it's not hard.

stratigo wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Adrassil wrote:
I now go back, again, to the obvious lack of empathy of people who celebrate this change and/or demand female Space Marines and likely why they argue from a "real world" perspective while those who don't like it argue from a lore perspective? It's because, in all likelihood, those who don't want the change love the lore and accept it for what it is. They hold it in much higher regard and very likely see how shallow this change it, even if on a subconscious level. The pro-change side seems to lack the empathy to even try to understand why people don't want the change. This is one of the many reasons why this change shouldn't happen; the change is to appeal to people who believe their perspective is above all others and won't even try to emphasise with their detractors, which is a damned red flag if you ask me.

You make a well reasoned post, but this bit screams of "be tolerant of my intolerance"

Not all viewpoints deserve equal treatment.

We also understand why people don't want the change. They don't want women in the hobby. A large set of men have always been incredibly hostile to women entering what are seen as traditionally male spaces. It's created long lasting active political movements.

No no no, jesus no. Don't paint with that broad brush. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the hobby with women, I just don't think the background has to change to make that happen.

 Insectum7 wrote:
No no no, jesus no. Don't paint with that broad brush. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the hobby with women, I just don't think the background has to change to make that happen.

So you're perfectly happy for women to visit the hobby on your terms.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
No no no, jesus no. Don't paint with that broad brush. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the hobby with women, I just don't think the background has to change to make that happen.

So you're perfectly happy for women to visit the hobby on your terms.

Bad faith much?

stratigo wrote:

We also understand why people don't want the change. They don't want women in the hobby.

well, that is sexism if you think woman want only to play with female models or armies containing female models
this change is mostly there for man who want female models because sex sells

from experience, woman chose Eldar/DarkEldar for aesthetics, Orks because they are funny or Chaos Marines rather than imperial factions, simply because the background of what the Imperium is turns them off and not because there are not enough female models

And this is not the first time that woman appear in the background or would be a model in 40k, acting like this is the change needed to bring woman in because somehow all the other female models did not work, you may should think about why it did not work with the other armies

the other point is, "the hobby" as plenty of woman and nobody has a problem with, this is something exclusive to the "warhammer hobby" and it starts looking like those problems are exclusive to the "following exclusive games workshop products" hobby

 Insectum7 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
No no no, jesus no. Don't paint with that broad brush. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the hobby with women, I just don't think the background has to change to make that happen.

So you're perfectly happy for women to visit the hobby on your terms.

Bad faith much?

women are telling you what makes us comfortable in the hobby, and in return, you're telling us that such things are unacceptable. so we're allowed to exist in the hobby, but only when it's hostile to us

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
No no no, jesus no. Don't paint with that broad brush. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the hobby with women, I just don't think the background has to change to make that happen.

So you're perfectly happy for women to visit the hobby on your terms.

Bad faith much?

women are telling you what makes us comfortable in the hobby, and in return, you're telling us that such things are unacceptable. so we're allowed to exist in the hobby, but only when it's hostile to us

And the woman who likes the lore, paints up a Tyranid army and joins her local club is "just visiting" apparently?

There's a dissonance here.

Being honest here with personal experience, which isn't worth the digital ink, but here it is.

I have never seen a signal woman or person who identifies as female play this game that wasn't asked to "try it out". This game has, in my experience, been so blatantly hostile and anti-female in every respect, that it's frightening. I have seen women play AOS, and that's about the closest I've come to seeing women in this hobby. And please, show me the mental gymnastics of trying to conflate how AOS and 40K are the same player base. 40K is the DBZ Cell Saga.

What do you mean “40k is the DBZ Cell Saga”? I don’t follow your meaning.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

women are telling you what makes us comfortable in the hobby, and in return, you're telling us that such things are unacceptable. so we're allowed to exist in the hobby, but only when it's hostile to us

I'm going to be 100% real here.

Is there being male only and female only factions genuinely hostile?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
No no no, jesus no. Don't paint with that broad brush. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the hobby with women, I just don't think the background has to change to make that happen.

So you're perfectly happy for women to visit the hobby on your terms.

Bad faith much?

women are telling you what makes us comfortable in the hobby, and in return, you're telling us that such things are unacceptable. so we're allowed to exist in the hobby, but only when it's hostile to us

And the woman who likes the lore, paints up a Tyranid army and joins her local club is "just visiting" apparently?

There's a dissonance here.

It's pretty much schroedinger's minority with these people. Only those who kowtow to or match their narrative of what they see matches with the ills of the hobby is acknowledged, anyone else who is able to enjoy it and doesn't make a fuss about the lack of females in the subfactions THEY want to change is conveniently ignored. Which is funny for people who like to profess hating stereotypes stereotyping themselves into seeing that women only want to play factions that have explicit women in them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

women are telling you what makes us comfortable in the hobby, and in return, you're telling us that such things are unacceptable. so we're allowed to exist in the hobby, but only when it's hostile to us

I'm going to be 100% real here.

Is there being male only and female only factions genuinely hostile?

I don’t want to speak for Student…, but I found for me and my wife the main faction, the one that has all the flavors, almost of the new shinies and the novels and the epic series and new kits and old kits refreshed, the one on all the posters and all the video game covers, that one being explicitly “no women” comes across as hostile to women. Half of the setting is male dominated with some inclusion and some gender specific subfactions; the other half of the setting is Space Marines. It’s a lot to ignore.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Adrassil wrote:Female Custodes shouldn't be a thing. There, I said it: one compelling lore argument is that the big reason why the Emperor made the Astartes only male is because he was afraid that if they were made both out of males and females is the danger they might find a way to reproduce. This would mean if they could create Space Marine children, they would, in all likelihood, take control over humanity.

So, if the Emperor felt that way about the Astartes, wouldn't he have the same sentiment toward the Custodes?

This has never been written in any BL book, or GW product. This is entirely a fanon position. This is not "one compelling lore argument" or a "big reason", because it is not rooted at all in any material GW have produced.

There is no reason to suggest that Custodes and Astartes are even capable of reproduction.

This. The real lore reason that all space marines are male is that the Emperor was a closeted misogynist and wanted to hang out with beefcake men, no icky girls allowed. How else do you explain the Custodes uniform being a cape and a banana hammock?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

women are telling you what makes us comfortable in the hobby, and in return, you're telling us that such things are unacceptable. so we're allowed to exist in the hobby, but only when it's hostile to us

I'm going to be 100% real here.

Is there being male only and female only factions genuinely hostile?

not inherently, but with 40k as it exists (aka, the poster boy faction being loudly and inarguably all male), the lack of female diversity in other areas of the game is an issue. for example, AOS is a game where the box art faction has a variety of gender representation, which makes all-male armies like fyreslayers or kharadron (edit: iirc the new fyreslayer warband has some women but that's a recent unit so the army was all-male until recently) not an issue. it's not an inherent issue, but a contextual one. if we're talking about gender in the context of 40k, the all-male faction of space marines is an ever-present elephant in the room