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 RaptorusRex wrote:
I think part of that is the paintjob, myself. The sculpt is a limiting factor on how good those can look, though.

Oh for sure the paint jobs on the 1st two are also poor.
But I own each of those models shown on that page & i assure you even as bare metal those two are bad sculpts even for that era.

 Don Savik wrote:
At the end of the day no matter what you do, the population of a tabletop wargame is going to skew male. Even if the face of the hobby was changed to be female guardsmen like Minka Lesk, most women would still not want to sci-fi wargame. People like what they like, and while you can make it more approachable, you aren't going to flip the demographics. Just look at any other miniature game that isn't 40k and find me one that isn't 90% men. You can't.

I would always state 'currently' when making statements about what men and women want to do. Otherwise you stand to look foolish if it ever changes (women driving cars, being doctors, etc. etc. - a whole bunch of things that men could never imagine large numbers of women being good at).

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
At the end of the day no matter what you do, the population of a tabletop wargame is going to skew male. Even if the face of the hobby was changed to be female guardsmen like Minka Lesk, most women would still not want to sci-fi wargame. People like what they like, and while you can make it more approachable, you aren't going to flip the demographics. Just look at any other miniature game that isn't 40k and find me one that isn't 90% men. You can't.

I would always state 'currently' when making statements about what men and women want to do. Otherwise you stand to look foolish if it ever changes (women driving cars, being doctors, etc. etc. - a whole bunch of things that men could never imagine large numbers of women being good at).

Also these things can vary so much.

Eg take horse riding - as a hobby in the UK its dominated by women/girls; at the competitive end of racing its dominated by men; in the USA in the rancher regions its a passtime dominated by men.

It's the same activity and yet different segments and different cultures all have very distinct gender dominance.

As you say many lines of work today were once considered "beyond" what women could do in the past.


Heck earlier in this thread (or one of the others) the point was raised that there were once more women into wargaming much earlier and now its shifted.
Right now we do indeed have very heavy male dominance, but its changing and heck who knows give it another 5-10 years and we could see an entire cultural shift.


Personally I think its beyond the models; its who is engaging; who is leading the way and showing people that they can "engage" and have a positive interaction. Who is inspiring the next generation of wargamers?

And looking at actually somewhat related hobby, RPG playerbase these days is way more gender diverse than it used to be.

These things are cultural, not inherent, and what sort of representation the game has is part of that culture.

 Crimson wrote:
And looking at actually somewhat related hobby, RPG playerbase these days is way more gender diverse than it used to be.

These things are cultural, not inherent, and what sort of representation the game has is part of that culture.

Yep heck look at Larping and Historical Re-enactment. Both were once super niche hobbies and the latter was mostly for history groups and the like. Today both are booming and still growing in popularity in the UK. They've become way more popular and are growing.




Honestly you could say Wargames are an enigma right now in terms of diversity growth because RPG, Larping, Video gaming - all these are seeing big increases in women players. Wargaming is lagging abit and I wonder if that might purely be in some way because its been just less marketed and evident. Perhaps GW pulling out of its big tournaments and just not sponsoring events for ages and also not engaging sponsors resulted in every other market growing because they did get those sponsors; they did back those events and they advertised and streamed them and all to get people to see them. Perhaps Wargaming lacking that (at the time a lot of those other hobbies were doing it, GW was in its full anti-internet phase) has just held it back a tiny bit from a growth in market, interest and diversity that has otherwise swept through geeky things.

Heck look at video games - once very niche and geeky and yet now if you've never played COD or a video game, chances are you are the outlier at school etc...

 Don Savik wrote:
At the end of the day no matter what you do, the population of a tabletop wargame is going to skew male. Even if the face of the hobby was changed to be female guardsmen like Minka Lesk, most women would still not want to sci-fi wargame. People like what they like, and while you can make it more approachable, you aren't going to flip the demographics. Just look at any other miniature game that isn't 40k and find me one that isn't 90% men. You can't.

This is called an is-ought statement.

 Overread wrote:

Heck look at video games - once very niche and geeky and yet now if you've never played COD or a video game, chances are you are the outlier at school etc...

Does playing Wingspan or other boardgames on the PC while I'm doing laundry count?
Otherwise here in modern times it's just Wii Golf & some Mario Kart with the cousins at Thanksgiving/Chistmas....

I think a large part of what we're seeing now in 40k is a Extremely Strong Generational Hobby meeting an Incredibly Principled Generation.

Basically: Grognards vs Youngbloods.

40k writers are also getting younger than ever, and they are sick of trying to push the same drivel as their previous writers, so they're trying to shift the lore. That's fine for them. I think it's silly, but that's me. I mean, at the end of the day, you're trying to sprinkle thoughtfulness and empathy onto a game about uber-fascistic space Nazis in space armor doing Space Nazi things. You can't suddenly shift that by saying, "Hey, we made some of the Nazi's women!, WE'rE INCLUSIVE!!!".

A miniature game that isn’t 90% men: Shadows of Brimstone. Every hero miniature is available in a male and female form, and there are lots of women who paint the minis and play the game.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
A miniature game that isn’t 90% men: Shadows of Brimstone. Every hero miniature is available in a male and female form, and there are lots of women who paint the minis and play the game.

Malifaux has generally had pretty good representation, both in game and in its community.

Women have extensive 'representation' in 40K. Doesn't preclude there being a couple of male only factions just like their are a couple of female only factions.

robbienw wrote:
Women have extensive 'representation' in 40K. Doesn't preclude there being a couple of male only factions just like their are a couple of female only factions.

Is representation in quotes because they really haven't?

Because Sisters of Battle were neglected for a very long time, Guard only recently began getting any decent number of lady infantry, and the elephant in the room that is Marines still don't have women members.

Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

There is also the fact that a key part of marine lore, in that they are a warrior brotherhood, would be destroyed if they did decide to make marine women.

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

There is also the fact that a key part of marine lore, in that they are a warrior brotherhood, would be destroyed if they did decide to make marine women.

What about Blood Angels? They take irradiated and emaciated applicants, and they still end up as Blood Angels.

And Marines can be basically anything in 40k. They can be Vikings, Vampires, Angels, Batmen, Noble Protectors, Vicious Attackers, Reasonable Strategists, Cyborgs...
But not women. Why is that where the line is drawn?

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

There is also the fact that a key part of marine lore, in that they are a warrior brotherhood, would be destroyed if they did decide to make marine women.

As previously mentioned, many Marine chapters recruit from physically poor stock- they seem to favour determination and strength of will over absolute physical aptitude. See Baal for a good example.

Generally speaking, malnourished dregs from hostile environments are physically poor specimens.

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

 JNAProductions wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Women have extensive 'representation' in 40K. Doesn't preclude there being a couple of male only factions just like their are a couple of female only factions.

Is representation in quotes because they really haven't?

Because Sisters of Battle were neglected for a very long time, Guard only recently began getting any decent number of lady infantry, and the elephant in the room that is Marines still don't have women members.

No, its in quotes because of the way its used in modern parlance.

Sisters of Battle took a long time to update because GW was moving into fully plastic armies, and it took a while for the technology to mature to the point where they could do there look nicely in plastic. Now they have a superb army.

Cadians suffer from the problem of having all male bodies which then look odd with the female heads placed on, especially if you have a mixed squad. They should have done some slighter shorter bodies that were recognisably female, like SG did with some of the Necromunda gangs. Van Saar and Orlocks being particularly good examples.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
A miniature game that isn’t 90% men: Shadows of Brimstone. Every hero miniature is available in a male and female form, and there are lots of women who paint the minis and play the game.

I don't play it, but Infinity?

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.
The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

Blood Angels recruit irradiated dregs, yet they make just as good marines that chapters that recruit people of better health. Furthermore, the recruits are young teens, so at that age none of them are powerful and strong warriors anyway, and the differences between sexes are not that pronounced. The trials are more about your warrior spirit than physical proves.

There is also the fact that a key part of marine lore, in that they are a warrior brotherhood, would be destroyed if they did decide to make marine women.

What does that even mean? It is just a word, and one that has often been used for mixed gender groups. Magneto's Brotherhood of Mutants was not just blokes. Besides, that making female marines would be possible wouldn't stop you making your custom chapter who recruits only men.

 Overread wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

House Escher are a Hive Gang who lack effective men due to genetic faults.

SoB are all female because of the decree passive, and they are no equal to marines

robbienw wrote:

 Overread wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

House Escher are a Hive Gang who lack effective men due to genetic faults.

SoB are all female because of the decree passive, and they are no equal to marines

To the bolded bit? Especially in marketing and presentation.

The poster faction, the one that's in every launch box and has the most lore and subfactions and all manner of other things-that's all men.

robbienw wrote:
Women have extensive 'representation' in 40K. Doesn't preclude there being a couple of male only factions just like their are a couple of female only factions.

They don’t, though. And the community is very toxic to women and to any increase in ‘representation’. The vast bulk of 40k minis sold, books sold, armies played, etc. belong to an aggressively no-gurlz faction, and if you remove Space Marines you’re still left with a game that feels old fashioned in its treatment of women and female representation. Granted, a little less old fashioned now.

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.
The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

Blood Angels recruit irradiated dregs, yet they make just as good marines that chapters that recruit people of better health. Furthermore, the recruits are young teens, so at that age none of them are powerful and strong warriors anyway, and the differences between sexes are not that pronounced. The trials are more about your warrior spirit than physical proves.

There is also the fact that a key part of marine lore, in that they are a warrior brotherhood, would be destroyed if they did decide to make marine women.

What does that even mean? It is just a word, and one that has often been used for mixed gender groups. Magneto's Brotherhood of Mutants was not just blokes. Besides, that making female marines would be possible wouldn't stop you making your custom chapter who recruits only men.

The differences become pronounced in early teens, which is when recruits are in the first phases of the transformation.

They may recruit irradiated dregs, but the male dregs are still going to be physically and mentally more capable then the female ones.

It means exactly what it says. I'm not sure how you've managed to miss such a key part of Marine fluff

 JNAProductions wrote:

And Marines can be basically anything in 40k. They can be Vikings, Vampires, Angels, Batmen, Noble Protectors, Vicious Attackers, Reasonable Strategists, Cyborgs...
But not women. Why is that where the line is drawn?

Exactly! A big part of the popularity of marines is no doubt due their thematic flexibility. They can represent different things and you can make yours to be however you want. Except no girls! If anything, such a limitation goes against the marine core concept, which is customisability.

robbienw wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.
The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

Blood Angels recruit irradiated dregs, yet they make just as good marines that chapters that recruit people of better health. Furthermore, the recruits are young teens, so at that age none of them are powerful and strong warriors anyway, and the differences between sexes are not that pronounced. The trials are more about your warrior spirit than physical proves.

There is also the fact that a key part of marine lore, in that they are a warrior brotherhood, would be destroyed if they did decide to make marine women.

What does that even mean? It is just a word, and one that has often been used for mixed gender groups. Magneto's Brotherhood of Mutants was not just blokes. Besides, that making female marines would be possible wouldn't stop you making your custom chapter who recruits only men.

The differences become pronounced in early teens, which is when recruits are in the first phases of the transformation.

They may recruit irradiated dregs, but the male dregs are still going to be physically and mentally more capable then the female ones.

It means exactly what it says. I'm not sure how you've managed to miss such a key part of Marine fluff

Is it key, though?
How do you introduce Marines-do you say "They're an all-male force of genetically modified supersoldiers for the Imperium,"?
Or do you leave out the all-male bit, and just say genetically modified supersoldiers?

 Overread wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

If we stick to one million space marines, then SoB already outnumber space marines by at least two or three orders of magnitude. They are not as rare, powerful or valuable as space marines.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Women have extensive 'representation' in 40K. Doesn't preclude there being a couple of male only factions just like their are a couple of female only factions.

They don’t, though. And the community is very toxic to women and to any increase in ‘representation’. The vast bulk of 40k minis sold, books sold, armies played, etc. belong to an aggressively no-gurlz faction, and if you remove Space Marines you’re still left with a game that feels old fashioned in its treatment of women and female representation. Granted, a little less old fashioned now.

Yes they do. Armies are replete with female models these days. A couple of male factions doesn't change that, as a couple of female only factions in turn doesn't exclude men.

The community is not toxic to women. The fact is this kind of hobby doesn't and never will appeal to the majority of women no matter how much you change it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Overread wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

House Escher are a Hive Gang who lack effective men due to genetic faults.

SoB are all female because of the decree passive, and they are no equal to marines

To the bolded bit? Especially in marketing and presentation.

The poster faction, the one that's in every launch box and has the most lore and subfactions and all manner of other things-that's all men.

That's obviously not what I'm talking about

They aren't physically equal to marines.

robbienw wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Overread wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

House Escher are a Hive Gang who lack effective men due to genetic faults.

SoB are all female because of the decree passive, and they are no equal to marines

To the bolded bit? Especially in marketing and presentation.

The poster faction, the one that's in every launch box and has the most lore and subfactions and all manner of other things-that's all men.

That's obviously not what I'm talking about

They aren't physically equal to marines.

Yeah, because Marines take people who are basically cripples (the irradiated waifs of Baal) and turn them into transhumans strong enough to lift a car.

But heavens forbid any Chapter takes a woman who's a hell of a lot stronger than and more physically capable than, not just the recruits the Blood Angels take, but the vast majority of men-or even, if they're from a planet that lets them exceed current Earthly limitations, literlaly stronger than any man of the modern day.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think a large part of what we're seeing now in 40k is a Extremely Strong Generational Hobby meeting an Incredibly Principled Generation.

Basically: Grognards vs Youngbloods.

40k writers are also getting younger than ever, and they are sick of trying to push the same drivel as their previous writers, so they're trying to shift the lore. That's fine for them. I think it's silly, but that's me. I mean, at the end of the day, you're trying to sprinkle thoughtfulness and empathy onto a game about uber-fascistic space Nazis in space armor doing Space Nazi things. You can't suddenly shift that by saying, "Hey, we made some of the Nazi's women!, WE'rE INCLUSIVE!!!".

While inclusion can be helpful in terms of ‘I see myself in this and that makes it easier to engage,’ that’s not the only or even primary reason to do it.

Again, having diverse representation in something makes those who engage with it more open and friendly to the represented parties. This is you universally find strongholds of hatred in areas that are more remote and isolated regionally, societally, or even both. It’s also why legitimate hate groups and those who openly benefit from them fight tooth and nail against diversification in media and condemning areas of intermingling (cities, college, ect). Because it’s very easy to have people you never have contact with outside of hostility and violence, but as soon as your favorite super hero is on screen with a diverse cast of co-heroes / you have to shop shoulder-to-shoulder with more melanin inclined people at the grocery store, people rapidly become less bigoted. Not prejudiced free mike you, but less aggressively and forwardly so because it’s no longer tolerated. That’s a big part of terraforming insular groups, such as various bastions of nerddom, into hotbeds of racism and misogyny.

TLDR: diversification is only partially about letting people see themselves in something. It’s other (and I’d argue primarily) purpose is about letting the primary see people other than themselves in something, which in turn makes them less insular and allows those other parties a more safe entry and comfortable environment when they choose to take an interest and partake.

 JNAProductions wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Overread wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Marines are recruited from the most miniscule percentage of the toughest hardest young men on martial or extremely dangerous planets, and only a vanishingly small amount make it through the trials and the surgery to become a marine.

The idea that any young women in any kind of numbers would be able to make it when so few boys can stretches credibility.

House Escher would like a word with you

Also the Sob recruit from the same kind of situation and the SoB aren't restricted on numbers to recruit like Marines are - in theory the SoB could even grow to outnumber the marines .

House Escher are a Hive Gang who lack effective men due to genetic faults.

SoB are all female because of the decree passive, and they are no equal to marines

To the bolded bit? Especially in marketing and presentation.

The poster faction, the one that's in every launch box and has the most lore and subfactions and all manner of other things-that's all men.

That's obviously not what I'm talking about

They aren't physically equal to marines.

Yeah, because Marines take people who are basically cripples (the irradiated waifs of Baal) and turn them into transhumans strong enough to lift a car.

But heavens forbid any Chapter takes a woman who's a hell of a lot stronger than and more physically capable than, not just the recruits the Blood Angels take, but the vast majority of men-or even, if they're from a planet that lets them exceed current Earthly limitations, literlaly stronger than any man of the modern day.

The Blood Angels do that, they have a variant transformation process though with the sarchophagi they use.

Marines at large don't.

A random non-BA chapter using female recurits because BA use sickly ones makes absoloutely no logical sense.