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I would want more Skaven, and you? https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/07/16/the-slaughter-at-hel-crown-submit-your-results-and-decide-its-fate/

What do people think the release plan for Spearhead is going to be then?

The Fire and Jade "battlepack" contains rules for games played in two of the Mortal Realms, which suggests three more "battlepacks" at some point, presumably with a double-sided board, some appropriate terrain and then... rules for alternate Spearhead armies? But with 25 armies in the Fire and Jade set, I can't see the others having the same amount.

Maybe they'll stretch them out over the course of the edition so one every 9 months or so and have armies incorporating new units that have come out since then?

Or maybe we'll just get some big Spearhead boxsets with two new forces in each along with the new battlepack stuff, more akin to Warcry?

The book covers all of the Spearheads/Vanguards that are currently available.

They've insinuated that we can expect an Ironjawz Spearhead at some point, so it's not wildly beyond belief that we could see books themed to Ghur, Shyish, Chamon, Hysh, and Ulgu.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The book covers all of the Spearheads/Vanguards that are currently available.

I mean theoretically a Spearhead is just a collection of units with custom rules. They don't have to be available in a single box - certainly if you wanted to try and get more money out of Spearhead players, you make a second one for each faction with units that have to be purchased individually.

deano2099 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The book covers all of the Spearheads/Vanguards that are currently available.

I mean theoretically a Spearhead is just a collection of units with custom rules. They don't have to be available in a single box - certainly if you wanted to try and get more money out of Spearhead players, you make a second one for each faction with units that have to be purchased individually.

Again:
This is what they said the setup would be from the outset. It's like how Combat Patrol is for 40k.

So far, we've gotten updated Combat Patrol sets with the books and a few extra Combat Patrols via White Dwarf.

Spearhead and Combat Patrol are clearly marketing ideas designed to be "one box and play" to make it really easy to sell the game to new people and also have a quick format to tempt existing customers into trying out other armies and so forth.

Your store manage wants to reach out and grab 1 box and 1 book and thrust them before a newbie and let them go play - even easier if its push-fit (no glue); but even if it requires glue its just 1 more item along with clippers.

New people especially need really simple product structure to get into a game; choosing models at will is hard if they don't have any idea what is good or bad or what does what or how to play or points or any of that stuff.

 Overread wrote:
Spearhead and Combat Patrol are clearly marketing ideas designed to be "one box and play" to make it really easy to sell the game to new people and also have a quick format to tempt existing customers into trying out other armies and so forth.

Your store manage wants to reach out and grab 1 box and 1 book and thrust them before a newbie and let them go play - even easier if its push-fit (no glue); but even if it requires glue its just 1 more item along with clippers.

New people especially need really simple product structure to get into a game; choosing models at will is hard if they don't have any idea what is good or bad or what does what or how to play or points or any of that stuff.

Yeah, they could techically use the format for narrative uniqe campaign lists, say Death units from many different factions, perhaps as a kind of desperate last stand lists with unusual allies, but its obvious they just make a simplified ruleset to introduce new gamers.
I find it hard to see the appeal of the format for experienced players.

 Fayric wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Spearhead and Combat Patrol are clearly marketing ideas designed to be "one box and play" to make it really easy to sell the game to new people and also have a quick format to tempt existing customers into trying out other armies and so forth.

Your store manage wants to reach out and grab 1 box and 1 book and thrust them before a newbie and let them go play - even easier if its push-fit (no glue); but even if it requires glue its just 1 more item along with clippers.

New people especially need really simple product structure to get into a game; choosing models at will is hard if they don't have any idea what is good or bad or what does what or how to play or points or any of that stuff.

Yeah, they could techically use the format for narrative uniqe campaign lists, say Death units from many different factions, perhaps as a kind of desperate last stand lists with unusual allies, but its obvious they just make a simplified ruleset to introduce new gamers.
I find it hard to see the appeal of the format for experienced players.

For more experienced players sometimes it can just be a quicker/smaller game format that's well supported. Just the same as Killteam.

Often more experienced gamers can be more time-limited compared to less experienced as more experienced are often older with more demands on life.

Of course its just a separate format option, you don't have to use it and regular 40K is right there for your more varied armies and bigger games .

 Fayric wrote:
I find it hard to see the appeal of the format for experienced players.

Very much of the same opinion, and feel that the mustering rules for Boarding Patrol are ideal for small games of 40K in general, and also a good starting point for beginners. There is no reason they can't do it for AOS as well...

...speaking of which, its a crying shame that AOS 3rd edition didn't have its own take on Arks of Omen. Lets face it, we'd have all been chuffed to have had our foot soldiers storming the dungeons!

I've managed to play a couple of quick games and i would say the format is fine for experienced players. Especially if you're short on time and just want to play it's nice to just grab exactly what you need and start playing.

Exactly - if you've got the models and time then by all means the full AoS game is likely going to be what you reach for; but if you've got a very new army or you want to play lots but can't commit to big armies with them*; or you have limited time.

Those are the moments that smaller games with different rules come to the fore.


Trying to make one set of rules that does small to large "kind of" works but you can always end up with an ideal sweet spot and anything far outside of that gets wonky.
Old World before the End Times is a fantastic example of a rules system that was very solid at 2K points but fell apart the lower and lower you went. by 500 points it just didn't really work well as a game for most armies



*even if not a cost barrier; time on building and painting is often a barrier

Being fair to Spearhead - compared to Combat Patrol - is that it at least provides some variation between games with it's card deck. Otherwise the variation comes only from running different factions - which is very expensive compared to swapping out Kill Teams or Underworld Warbands.

The Spearhead Gaming Pack is pretty decent; board, terrain, card deck all in one reasonably priced package. While still not convinced it would interest me as a mode I'd come back to beyond the first session or two, GW is supporting Spearhead better than they had Combat Patrol. The box sets are a bit cheaper as well.

deano2099 wrote:
What do people think the release plan for Spearhead is going to be then?

The Fire and Jade "battlepack" contains rules for games played in two of the Mortal Realms, which suggests three more "battlepacks" at some point, presumably with a double-sided board, some appropriate terrain and then... rules for alternate Spearhead armies? But with 25 armies in the Fire and Jade set, I can't see the others having the same amount.

Maybe they'll stretch them out over the course of the edition so one every 9 months or so and have armies incorporating new units that have come out since then?

Or maybe we'll just get some big Spearhead boxsets with two new forces in each along with the new battlepack stuff, more akin to Warcry?

The Fire and Jade gaming pack doen't include the Fire&Jade book and as such doesn't have any army rules in it. Those are all in the downloadable faction packs. So no need to create more Spearheads just to release more gaming packs. Though I hope they do release alternate Spearheads in the future, so every faction has at least 2.

The only new thing in other realms gaming packs apart from a reskinned gameboard and maybe terrain would be the twist deck as that would be specific to the realm. Maybe new battle tactics but that is questionable.

So if they just ignore that the printed design of the gameboard doesn't fit other realms they could also just sell the 6-card twist decks for other realms on their own as nothing else would change much compared to the current Fire&Jade pack

 Kanluwen wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The book covers all of the Spearheads/Vanguards that are currently available.

I mean theoretically a Spearhead is just a collection of units with custom rules. They don't have to be available in a single box - certainly if you wanted to try and get more money out of Spearhead players, you make a second one for each faction with units that have to be purchased individually.

Again:
This is what they said the setup would be from the outset. It's like how Combat Patrol is for 40k.

Oh I missed that, can you remember where they said it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fayric wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Spearhead and Combat Patrol are clearly marketing ideas designed to be "one box and play" to make it really easy to sell the game to new people and also have a quick format to tempt existing customers into trying out other armies and so forth.

Your store manage wants to reach out and grab 1 box and 1 book and thrust them before a newbie and let them go play - even easier if its push-fit (no glue); but even if it requires glue its just 1 more item along with clippers.

New people especially need really simple product structure to get into a game; choosing models at will is hard if they don't have any idea what is good or bad or what does what or how to play or points or any of that stuff.

Yeah, they could techically use the format for narrative uniqe campaign lists, say Death units from many different factions, perhaps as a kind of desperate last stand lists with unusual allies, but its obvious they just make a simplified ruleset to introduce new gamers.
I find it hard to see the appeal of the format for experienced players.

It's aimed at new players but then it's also offering them an alternative to building a full 2000 point army. The Fire & Jade book actually talks directly about "collecting broad versus collecting deep" - that players might prefer to assemble a bunch of different Spearheads rather than a single big army.
It's especially appealing for those without a community that provides players and a play space. Requires smaller tables, quicker to teach - it works more in the board game model of just being able to invite a friend over a play a game where you provide both of the armies. And you can get a different playstyle by switching out to different ones. Plus from a hobby perspective people often prefer painting a bunch of different things than loads of the same.

With the addition of card play as part of the rules, I actually see this as more of attempt to bring in players of Underworlds, which continues to be pretty popular in its own right, with many of those players just picking up every warband that get released (even though the need for getting every card is much less now). I can certainly see the appeal to GW of wanting say, every 2-force collection box to be two new Spearheads, which then appeals to literally every player, rather than just collectors of those armies.

I'm curious for anyone who's played Spearhead yet if you think it would work on bigger boards. I love the idea of it, but all the bat reps I've seen so far make it look pretty cramped. I get that with only 4 turns they're trying to get you directly into the action, but I'm wondering how it would feel on something like a 3x3 board with more turns and more room to maneuver.

GW minimum/recommended board sizes are always somewhat arbitrary and these days basically amount too "whatever fits in the boxes we make"

I think it could work on larger boards, though larger boards might end up with you having to sacrifice the 4 turn limit or at least be flexible with it and perhaps focus on objective/kill game-ending states rather than a turn ending state. Purely because a larger board might well mean that several turns are "lost" to manoeuvring more than damage dealing or securing objectives.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I'm curious for anyone who's played Spearhead yet if you think it would work on bigger boards. I love the idea of it, but all the bat reps I've seen so far make it look pretty cramped. I get that with only 4 turns they're trying to get you directly into the action, but I'm wondering how it would feel on something like a 3x3 board with more turns and more room to maneuver.

This is effectively what the 1000 point format is.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I'm curious for anyone who's played Spearhead yet if you think it would work on bigger boards. I love the idea of it, but all the bat reps I've seen so far make it look pretty cramped. I get that with only 4 turns they're trying to get you directly into the action, but I'm wondering how it would feel on something like a 3x3 board with more turns and more room to maneuver.

This is effectively what the 1000 point format is.

Yes and no. I like the CP/Spearhead preset list aspect for quick and efficient games, but want to see if the actual on the table experience can be expanded a bit. I'll have to try it out, like Overread said.

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I'm curious for anyone who's played Spearhead yet if you think it would work on bigger boards. I love the idea of it, but all the bat reps I've seen so far make it look pretty cramped. I get that with only 4 turns they're trying to get you directly into the action, but I'm wondering how it would feel on something like a 3x3 board with more turns and more room to maneuver.

This is effectively what the 1000 point format is.

Yes and no. I like the CP/Spearhead preset list aspect for quick and efficient games, but want to see if the actual on the table experience can be expanded a bit. I'll have to try it out, like Overread said.

You can make a list, keep it, and play it over and over if you like -preset list you can even keep in a box with the exact models for super efficent gaming experience. Im not sure why you need GW to make the list for you.

 Fayric wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I'm curious for anyone who's played Spearhead yet if you think it would work on bigger boards. I love the idea of it, but all the bat reps I've seen so far make it look pretty cramped. I get that with only 4 turns they're trying to get you directly into the action, but I'm wondering how it would feel on something like a 3x3 board with more turns and more room to maneuver.

This is effectively what the 1000 point format is.

Yes and no. I like the CP/Spearhead preset list aspect for quick and efficient games, but want to see if the actual on the table experience can be expanded a bit. I'll have to try it out, like Overread said.

You can make a list, keep it, and play it over and over if you like -preset list you can even keep in a box with the exact models for super efficent gaming experience. Im not sure why you need GW to make the list for you.

I've made lists to fit cases before with the plans of using them for a long period of time. Every time I've done that GW has updated points or busted something before I can even get the damn thing on the table. I'm much more interested in a game mode that's removed from the seasons and meta churn.

Plus one would hope fixed forces are better balanced against each other than any 1000-point army.

deano2099 wrote:
Plus one would hope fixed forces are better balanced against each other than any 1000-point army.

One would hope. I've played a couple more games now and i'm leaning more towards yes than no.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/07/18/warhammer-age-of-sigmar-metawatch-discussing-casual-matched-play/

"Legends miniatures aren’t suitable for tournament play. In Casual Matched Play, however, they are positively encouraged! Due to their limited availability, Warhammer Legends are restricted in competitive events to maintain a fair playing field – but we very much encourage their use in Casual Matched Play.

***From a Studio perspective, Warhammer Legends should be considered legal in all Casual Matched Play games throughout the entire edition, whether they be games with your friends or at your local club.***"

Yay!! Glad they put this in, will help calm a LOT of the worries at out local group!

A shame that the cult of officialdom needs that to be said, but whatever if it makes life easier.

No, local groups will continue to ignore that.

My group tends to ignore whatever "official" comments GW make and just play to have fun. Update don't matter to us, if we find something causing a balance problem we discuss and come to an agreement then go back to having fun. Shocking though that might be to certain people, we prefer to be civilised and discuss rather than throw a tantrum that happens so often nowadays.

I wish our local group was that smooth!!
Glad you've got a good group around you!
?

I will certainly lobby to allow Legends at our club, it's a high quality document and has some unique fun units that, for a change, aren't overpriced.

With half a dozen games under my belt few observations.

A) active player does his abilities 1st, then other. Big quality of life change. No longer asking opponent after every move redeploy or not!
B) units stick around in general more.
C) std losing all wards vs mortals rough at certain matchups.
D) abilities allowing moving will be golden. Skaven 3 clawstep, redepo minimum 4 etc. Kruleboy dirty trick can be nasty
E) double turns taken massive dive. Seen only as finishing blow for r4&5 which just saved time rather than decide game apart from 1 that i did at turn 2 which was act of desperation after quite possibly worst turn 1 i have ever had. No double and i would have been tabled(as is got stuck in vp's and just delayed getting tabled anyway)
F) counter charge something that is going to give me surprises for a while. And never plan deep strike charge vs 1 unit if enemy has cp left.