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Snord wrote: Wow, this thread managed to be both interesting and measured, instead of spiraling off into some Orky equivalent of the culture wars. Another demonstration of why Orks are better than Custodes...
While Orks are essentially cockney soccer hooligans, and thus very male from our standpoint, subjectively their behaviour is just 'Orky' - they see themselves entirely from a racial perspective, in which being 'Orky' is being strong, violent and (preferably) big. If you're not Orky, you're a wuss. Any gender-specific words or expressions ascribed to them (like 'pansy' and 'urty bits') are also just Imperial approximations of whatever it is that Orks actually speak.
That doesn't mean that Da Boss's equating of the urge to fight with sex drive is wrong. Which is unfortunate, and I'm joining Gert and MorganFreeman in the shower...
this thread went a lot better than i expected! really quite happy with the discussions that have come about from this. there's a lot to speculate on when it comes to alien biology and culture
this thread went a lot better than i expected! really quite happy with the discussions that have come about from this. there's a lot to speculate on when it comes to alien biology and culture
Meanwhile the internet has gone into full stupid mode, as all the culture warriors (and opportunistic YouTubers) climb over each other expressing their utter outrage at the mention of female Custodes.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Going back to Waaaargh! The Orks? All any one knew was old, doddery Ork took their leave, wandering off far from the settlement, and in turn Wildboyz would wander in.
Waaaargh the orks is more specific than that. Half the aged orks develop pouches and gestate new yoofs. I think that's the book.
For the modern ork, any mating almost definitely takes place at a microscopic stage, when hyphae growing from separate spores meet each other in the medium. A hyphal stage certainly exists because inanimate orkoid mushrooms are used for food, fuel, and propellant, so this form is necessary to obtain mineral nutrients from the medium.
This hyphal stage could even be the primary state of ork existence. The individual boy or snotling et al is more like an ephemeral construct extruded from the main, microscopic ork society in order to do tasks on the surface world. This obviously isn't a conscious stage, but it's similar to a hymenopteran colony being one super organism where, where the individual organisms don't really have a separate existence.
This can account for phenomena like makari. Terrestrial fungi are often karyogamous, where a given cells has multiple distinct nuclei from different donors. A given boy can be walking around with every cell in his body containing the genome for a completely distinct second or third boy that isn't expressed.
We can only guess at this level of specificity, but I don't think Orkoids will hew so close to Earth fungi. They are not fungi, but a symbiote between an animal-like organism and fungal- or algal-like organism that are fused at a tissue level. The very way the main source for this states fungal or algal suggests to me that neither are ideal comparisons and that Orkoids only share similarities to these.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
On Ork self-identity? It’s so strong, Daemons can’t properly possess them. The sheer force of “I am an Ork, and Ork is best” leaves no weaknesses or points of temptation.
Sure, a Warp’ead might suck a Daemon into his bonce when summoning power for a particularly violent outburst, but the Daemon becomes the prisoner (citation Freebooterz entry for Daemon Possessed Warp’eadz)
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Then, for me at least, there’s the question of whether Speed Freeks, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz etc are themselves a form of Oddboy.
I mean, every Ork can see the fun in going fast, blowing stuff up and setting people on fire. But the Cults become obsessed with it, and very, very good at it.
Likewise Freebooterz, who almost act as an explorer Caste.
The primary limitation of a dreamer is lacking the patience to work through everything required to make their dream come true. A dreamer who's dreams just work somehow, is a terrifying force in the cosmos.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered foes (Necrontyr/Necrons).
Not retconned, but it was only ever implied in the original Necron Codex.
Eldar are explicitly creations of the Old Ones, and if memory serves it was said work on what would become humanity was also started.
Krorks are mentioned, but it’s only our own inference they became the Orks. Which if we’re completely honest is like saying because two words kind of sound similar, they therefore mean or refer to the same thing. Though I think it’s explicitly said The Nightbringer, somehow, never quite got round to ensuring the Krork had a concept of Death? It’s been ages since I read that lore.
Even if Krorks are the base species? We’ve still billions of years of evolution to take into account, and that’s before we consider that, at some point, some doofus might’ve tried some genetic engineering on Krorks, which lead to Orks as we know and love them today. And that includes their seemingly symbiotic relationship to Fungus, which we’ve no way of safely saying has always been there.
It’s like knowing us smelly hoomans share the Dimetrodon as an ancestor with all other synapsids, then claiming that therefore us smelly hoomans are Dimetrodons, every man jack of us.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This line of thinking could be hit with a big enough hammer (as is tradition) to include the Orks’ own, original creation myth as presented in Waaargh! The Orks, specifically the fall of the Brainboyz.
What if some well meaning idiot tinkered with Krork DNA, seeking to erase the potential for a Leader Caste to emerge from their genetic soup. The Oddboyz that would emerge to properly organise the other Oddboyz and Boyz (or equivalent). Done in an attempt to curtail their combat efficiency by just…editing out a formal command structure.
And in doing so, made it all so much worse. Without the Brainboyz to tell the Orks who and where to attack (left out how deliberately, they know how), they became the properly anarchic threat we know today.
Where once there might’ve been a considered approach to hopping aboard a Space Hulk with as many ladz as you had or would fit, and a set destination in mind and in reach? Now the middle bit still happens, but the Orks neither know nor care where they’re going, because there’s always gonna be a fight. The Orks are that fight,
If there’s anything to this mad rambling? I’m betting whoever edited out the Brainboy strain felt pretty sheepish, pretty sharpish. Like they’d tried to put out a chip pan fire with a bucket of water, and now even the fire is on fire.
While I disagree that there’s ambiguity about the Okd Ones creating the orks, I agree with the rest of your point. I almost went into a tangent about the genetic drift or tinkering of the krork causing the loss of Brain Boyz, and possibly also the loss of ‘feminine’ identifying krork, but I decided to keep my post more simple. Whatever the reason, the orks are an outlier when it comes to biology, sex and gender, almost certainly as a result of some kind of species-wide intervention.
JNAProductions wrote: From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
yeah, this is definitely what i was thinking about. different roles having their own genders within ork society, which to outsiders seem identically masculine, but within the culture would come with their own signifiers and expectations
Is "gender" the right term here? Things like class and nationality can have their own performative signifiers. Exhibiting properly speed-kulty signifiers seems more comparable to flashing nerd cred at the game store than be masculine around the bros. Possibly a gap in my knowledge. Is the term "gender" used in academic circles to refer to categories unrelated to masculinity/femininity/etc.?
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Good point. I'm not sure if "gender" is the right term, but I suppose being a mek (or whatever) is more analogous to a matter of gender than a matter of profession/hobby.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
It also dictates how they…..er, smash. If combat is intertwined with reproduction, then artillery orks and biker orks uh, perform intercourse quite differently.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/18 21:05:00
Whilst I don’t doubt that premise is entirely possible? It’s mentioned in the spores theory that Orks shed spores near constantly, with a massive release (ooooooer missus!) at the point of death.
Given Orks tend to live in pretty close proximity, if they are shedding spores, they’re likely also shedding pollen. Because when you think about it, plants only need pollinators on account they don’t get about much. And when it’s spring, people get hay fever because all the pollen is blowing about.
So I’d argue there’s no need for physical contact for pollination. The increased release of spores during a punch up could simply be down to physical impact knocking them off the Ork’s body.
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JNAProductions wrote: From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
yeah, this is definitely what i was thinking about. different roles having their own genders within ork society, which to outsiders seem identically masculine, but within the culture would come with their own signifiers and expectations
Is "gender" the right term here? Things like class and nationality can have their own performative signifiers. Exhibiting properly speed-kulty signifiers seems more comparable to flashing nerd cred at the game store than be masculine around the bros. Possibly a gap in my knowledge. Is the term "gender" used in academic circles to refer to categories unrelated to masculinity/femininity/etc.?
it depends how far you want to get into gender you want to get, but there are some people who say that gender goes deeper than that, yeah. the example i cited at the start of the thread was how a young boy, a crossdressing man, a trans man, and a cis male adult will each have their own genders, because for each of them, masculinity means something different, especially in how they perform their gender. this can go further off the more you get into non-binary identities, like the spaces outside of masculinity and femininity, or the spaces in-between
so when we're speculating about an otherwise ostensibly mono-gender, these "shades of gender" feel like they could be appropriate to consider
The issue isn't inuniverse, it's how we present that universe to the consumer.
English has embedded patriarchal norms in it - mankind, policeman etc, calling everyone guys (but never saying you have sex with guys...) or Man.
The orks are depicted as masculine, and they use english male pronouns for them in all descriptions, to the point that the basic ork identity is 'boy'.
That this technically doesn't equate to their sex, doesn't change anything.
Until we start using truly gender neutral language, everything will remain default male coded which entrenches exclusion. That as men this invisible to you because it's what you're used to doesn't in any way affect the reality of it. It's no different to race coding in tv, when all educated people used to be white men, creating an unconscious cultural exclusion that people just saw as normal.
Most arguments against this boil down to men not personally experiencing or feeling these things and that personal anecdote being taken as representative data. It is not. Just because one person's personal experience can coincidentally correlate with the actual data (ie a woman who has directly experienced this exclusion), doesn't validate all personal experience. Correlation is not causation. Too many people use false equivalence fallacies to assume that because X is true for one person, Y must be true for themselves and they run off on wild tangents.
See: the chuds currently claiming female custodes is gaslighting them. False equivalence. Just because gaslighting is true for someone else, doesn't mean it's true for you. False equivalence seems to be a really hard fallacy to explain to people because it keeps getting used in modern cultural discourse - from white persecution to misandry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/18 22:51:05
this wasn't meant as an out-of-universe discussion. i just wanted to speculate about in-universe xenobiology. it's a different discussion entirely if we're talking about it that way (but you are right that the way they're presented and received by the audience is exclusively male)
StudentOfEtherium wrote: this wasn't meant as an out-of-universe discussion. i just wanted to speculate about in-universe xenobiology. it's a different discussion entirely if we're talking about it that way (but you are right that the way they're presented and received by the audience is exclusively male)
Ah cool. So if we assume that the descriptive language used for orks to be purely an english means of discussing them, then I would say that, based on the english speaking world's general assumptions on what gender is (that sexual reproduction is wrapped in it, even if that's a cultural assumption), then orks would not have gender as we define it in their culture.
I would argue, based on that definition of gender, that the jobs of the orks aren't genders either. I would argue gender is a concept they just don't use, as we use it. Again, I know gender as a concept is disputed in its application today, so I'm going off assumptions of the english speaking world's tradition of gender, given 40k comes from the UK and thus their gender sensibilities would be underpinning how they design them.
or to put it another way, orks will or won't have gender depending on how you define gender in the first place. Is it correlated with reproduction, or is it purely your social position and utility?
I do recall Fungi's "fruiting bodies" (IE: the Shrooms up top) are all connected to one network usually- the largest is 2,200 acres in Malheur Natl forest in Oregon (had to google last one, but knew it was big). This is paralleled with the Waagh! as all orks are essentially from a larger Gestalt consciousness/ dna profile. We know the various oddboyz get their knowledge through the Waagh and sometimes it can keep an individual's memories (Ala Makari). So an Ork's physical body is essentially just a "Fruiting Body" that we see, while much of the ork is in the waaagh. In xenology, it's stated that the fungal symbiotes serve as systems so that certain organs along with sexual reproductive ones are not needed but the fungus could also be a the link to the waaagh. It just depends on what strain the oddboy gets. As far as I know, the same ork spores also spawn snotties, grots and squigs, so slight differences in the boyz could account for "sub-oddboys" like speed freaks, tankbustas, and old 'ardboyz.
On the issue of Oddboyz? I think I’d say it’s something we humans have no societal analogy to.
Whilst yes, humans do seem to have innate talents. And I dare say those have been studied, they just don’t really compare to an Ork. Our natural talents incline us toward certain things, but we still need to be taught those things to reach our full potential.
Oddboyz just….Know Things. A Mek can work from rough plans, but they seem to be more Shopping (well, pilfering) Lists for Grots than detailed blueprints explaining what goes where and why. But they can also just get bored and start bunging things together, never knowing what it is they’re making until it’s done. A Painboy never has formal training. But he knows which wriggly bits connect to which squirty bits. Yes they’re prone to experimenting and “fixing” things that didn’t need it. But they’re not working from books or existing knowledge.
I do really like the concept that knowledge is in The Waaagh!, and as each Mek, Dok or what have you figure out a new thing, at some point (from immediate to upon the Ork’s death) that knowledge passes into The Great Green, to be disseminated to others. Ideas in a gestalt consciousness just looking for a brain to happen in. Like an original definition meme, but passed along psychically/genetically.
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StudentOfEtherium wrote: this wasn't meant as an out-of-universe discussion. i just wanted to speculate about in-universe xenobiology. it's a different discussion entirely if we're talking about it that way (but you are right that the way they're presented and received by the audience is exclusively male)
Ah cool. So if we assume that the descriptive language used for orks to be purely an english means of discussing them, then I would say that, based on the english speaking world's general assumptions on what gender is (that sexual reproduction is wrapped in it, even if that's a cultural assumption), then orks would not have gender as we define it in their culture.
I would argue, based on that definition of gender, that the jobs of the orks aren't genders either. I would argue gender is a concept they just don't use, as we use it. Again, I know gender as a concept is disputed in its application today, so I'm going off assumptions of the english speaking world's tradition of gender, given 40k comes from the UK and thus their gender sensibilities would be underpinning how they design them.
or to put it another way, orks will or won't have gender depending on how you define gender in the first place. Is it correlated with reproduction, or is it purely your social position and utility?
I agree that Ork societal roles are probably not best described as genders. I do think they are social constructs, but gender is not the only social construct. Arguably, Ork societal roles hew closer to concepts of race than gender IMO.
I agree that Orks themselves almost certainly do not worry themselves with gender. Howver, as pointed out upthread, the gendered society to an outsider may not just be an out-universe abstraction from English or an in-universe abstraction by the Imperium, but may be based on the Old Ones concepts of gender as the engineers of Orkdom. I.e. they have inherited a gender they have no concept of.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
If we want to draw comparisons to human current society my personal approach is this:
- "race" (in German "race" is a concept that is highly contested so much that the word is frowned upon but I understand the english languages uses it a bit differently): the Orks actually have races (and racism): Orks, Grots, Snots
- nationality: your tribe. Your tribe can also be part of a greater Waaagh. Just like your nation can be part of the EU. And Ghazghkulls Waaagh is the UN because somehow it influences all Orks in the galaxy.
- worldview/ political stance: I'd say these are the Klans. Your tribe consists of members of different Klans and these in itself aren't monolithical. Not all Snakebites are Beast Snaggas and not all Evil Suns are Speed Freaks (and vice versa). But there are tendencies that some professions tend to have a higher percentage of a specific Klan. Just like people in social jobs tend to more often have left wing views than, say, managers.
- profession and personal interest: kommando, loota, tankbusta and so on. The Orks have a utopian society where everyone (but the Grots and snots) can actually do the job he likes and isn't forced to do something else . You like blowing up tanks, just find some pals and go on.
- social hierarchy: pretty obvious with nobz.
Though there's also a financial hierarchy with Bad Moons at the top. Obviously Bad Moons are filthy libertarians that know how to play the system.
What does that have to do with the topic?
Well, you don't see gender here. And I don't think ork society really cares about gender because there is only one. As I said earlier or in the other thread: It's well possible Orks don't even understand or recognize differences between the genders in other species (and we also know they don't think about stuff like that, too).
Or importantly, Orks may have different sexes (Becuase pollination/fertilisation is really unclear) but that isn’t something that defines you in their society.
If your an Ork? That’s an end to it. You’re an Ork and Orks are the best. And the only limit to your personal power, profit and influence is how ‘ard you get, and how many people you can duff up to claim their position, all the way up to Warlord (the lead Warboss among a confederation of Orky forces). And if you’re not ‘ard enough, every just has a laugh anyway, and don’t seek to analyse why. You are, or you’re not. That’s all there is to it.
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Gender is definitely something Orks would refer to as "oomie nonsense".
It's pretty much a very simple "might makes right" mentality with Ork society being clearly organized according to a very rigid understanding of Ork hiearchy, with grots/snotlings at the bottom and Orks at the top, all based on size and relative strength of the Ork as long as he's according to the WAAAGH! gestalt intuition of whether or not he's acting proppa, which prevents easy infiltration from things like Genestealer Cults.
I would think the closes analogy to gender in Ork Society is the Oddboyz. They are acceptable and integral parts of Ork Kultur that are not normal boyz. All the other types of boyz are exercising their preferred method of getting to a scrap, but Oddboyz are off doing their own special thing. However those Oddboyz things allow a Waaagh to do more than smash each other with sticks in a limited area. It would be a profession in most races, but you can't study to be an Oddboy. You're born an Oddboy, you live as an Oddboy, and you die as one.
But Oddboyz are always seen as Orks first, then the Oddboy bit, then a source of a potentially spectacular explosion if they’re a Weirdboy.
At all points they’re still subject to the same rules (or lack thereof) as the next Ork. The main difference being “useful” Oddboyz like Meks and Doks tend to gather more teef as a direct result of the services they render. And there’s no sin or unfairness perceived in clobbering one and nicking his best stuff just because he’s an Oddboy.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But Oddboyz are always seen as Orks first, then the Oddboy bit, then a source of a potentially spectacular explosion if they’re a Weirdboy.
At all points they’re still subject to the same rules (or lack thereof) as the next Ork. The main difference being “useful” Oddboyz like Meks and Doks tend to gather more teef as a direct result of the services they render. And there’s no sin or unfairness perceived in clobbering one and nicking his best stuff just because he’s an Oddboy.
Oddboyz do seem to be othered by other Orks though, and very rarely rise to the top of the pile- a mek warboss is exceptionally rare, for example, with big meks typically being subordinate to a warboss. Oddboyz that get too big for their boots are either put in their place or exiled. Hence why I think comparisons to race are more appropriate, as these are inherent traits that are treated differently in an arbitrary way to the in-group of standard Orks.
Ultimately, any human social construct is going to be an imperfect match, because it is a xeno society. The other big difference is that Ork kultur is, in some ways surprisingly, very homogenous across the galaxy, so in the case of Orks these social structures may actually be biologically determined in a way they are not in humans. I.e. Oddboys are always mistreated in the same way across the galaxy, with only rare exceptions (Gorkamorka comes to mind), whereas something like race for humans has a myriad of interpretations for ostensibly the same physical and/or national characteristics.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Of course all this does highlight when a writer actually creates a properly alien society it is never very popular, as even its building blocks are alien and there are no points where readers can relate to it. You have to compromise all over to anthropomorphize your creation or it leaves people cold.
You don’t have to anthropomorphise aliens to make them connect. You can base them on your family dog or cat, too.
The side effect is that it becomes hard to make puppy-identified aliens menacing. Take Flenser from A Fire Upon the Deep. Yes, he’s a Space Hitler, but he’s also a hamperful of puppies. Awwww.
. You like blowing up tanks, just find some pals and go on.
