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Dudeface wrote: So you want an average per game system? Well what if one army is up by more than another skewing individual armies? So we then do it by army right? Or we just accept as stated on average their collective product ranges are up 3-5%.
Old world seems ro have a fair few over 5%, there's also plenty that aren't seemingly.
If the price increase varies too much across the board to give a representative number, or even two or three numbers (maybe game systems, maybe regions), just don't give a number. IIRC there have been plenty of price increases where that's exactly what they've done.
Looking forward to the new Japanese prices. I'm sure GW will take the weaker Yen vs Pound, and adjust acordingly.
Or just double the EU increases, and call it a day.
M.
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Dudeface wrote: So you want an average per game system? Well what if one army is up by more than another skewing individual armies? So we then do it by army right? Or we just accept as stated on average their collective product ranges are up 3-5%.
Old world seems ro have a fair few over 5%, there's also plenty that aren't seemingly.
If the price increase varies too much across the board to give a representative number, or even two or three numbers (maybe game systems, maybe regions), just don't give a number. IIRC there have been plenty of price increases where that's exactly what they've done.
Which breeds more panic and angst in the customer base than the minority who can't grasp the concept of the average however.
Assuming that's the full list of items over 5% it's got to be what, less than a 20th of their total product line? If 95% is between 0 and 5% increases, how is it not representative?
I'm not going to be swayed on the concept. If people want to be angry because GW had the gall to give an indication of the level of prise rise a month in advance, feel free.
Since this announcement is not in the best interest of the clients and just another marketing scare tactic to squeeze even further, just keep the announcement with no figures. It's bad enough they come in with excuses....
GW is communicating fine. Lead with a commonly understood truth to ease readers into an accepting mindset, use an average to put up low percentiles so as not to scare anyone, double down by highlighting what it means for one of the cheapest kits to keep waving small numbers in the reader's face, follow it up with some silver lining and ask for understanding in the same breath. Seems pretty by the book to me. GW has had some sucky communication in the past, but I'm not seeing it here.
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Why is the rum always gone?
Yeah, some of the criticism I understand completely, especially TOW minis going up in price so soon after being (re-)released.
But the criticism regarding GW's communication on the matter, along with them giving us an average percent increase so that we know what to expect, seems borderline unhinged to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/10 10:13:20
- 1,085 items (not their whole range)
- 378 items between 3% & 5%
- 281 above 5% with a singular item at 10% as the highest (IG vehicle accessory sprue)
- 455 items below 3%
- Overall mean average of 3.16%
I included 2.94% increases as below 3% for reference, it was a hard cut off at 3.0 and 5.0. There are a whopping 7 items at that % though so doesn't shift the numbers much.
Lots of items are not on this sheet, I did a cursory search for various imperial knights and as far as I can see only the questoris and armigers are listed. Wardogs, cerastus and dominus are not listed at all from what I can see. This means the average % is assumingly lower than advertised from this sheet.
In conclusion, whilst the majority are not between 3% & 5% despite being the mean, this is because the steeper increases are being balanced out by lots of items with minimal to no changes. Most of the heavy hit items exist between 5-6.7% and are largely bigger kits or accessory items. A lot of the 0% are books of some variety, however as it's an incomplete list this is not a conclusive outcome.
Tl;DR - their earlier message was entirely correct.
Edit: these are not UK, I assumed UKR was UK retail, but Nobz are down as going from 35 - 37. They're £24 atm.
Further edit, they're direct order only items.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/05/10 10:13:41
alextroy wrote: I really wish more press releases included the Mean along with the Average. It is so easy to "lie" with Averages when the Mean gives much better insight. To pull up an old joke:
49 people are in a bar when Bill Gates walks in. One guy turns to the next and says, "We are all rich. The average net worth in this bar is 1 Billion Dollars."
I was always understanding that when the term "average" was used, particularly in the UK, the 'mean' had been used. And as your example shows, an outlier can have a massive effect on the mean. Quite often, the median is a far better average to use.
As we know and expect from statisticians, whichever average shows what they want to show will be used.
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alextroy wrote: I really wish more press releases included the Mean along with the Average. It is so easy to "lie" with Averages when the Mean gives much better insight. To pull up an old joke:
49 people are in a bar when Bill Gates walks in. One guy turns to the next and says, "We are all rich. The average net worth in this bar is 1 Billion Dollars."
I was always understanding that when the term "average" was used, particularly in the UK, the 'mean' had been used. And as your example shows, an outlier can have a massive effect on the mean. Quite often, the median is a far better average to use.
As we know and expect from statisticians, whichever average shows what they want to show will be used.
Assuming the sheet makes sense, the above shows that mean and median are inside 3-5% and modal might actually be below 3%.
- 1,085 items (not their whole range)
- 378 items between 3% & 5%
- 281 above 5% with a singular item at 10% as the highest (IG vehicle accessory sprue)
- 455 items below 3%
- Overall mean average of 3.16%
I included 2.94% increases as below 3% for reference, it was a hard cut off at 3.0 and 5.0. There are a whopping 7 items at that % though so doesn't shift the numbers much.
Lots of items are not on this sheet, I did a cursory search for various imperial knights and as far as I can see only the questoris and armigers are listed. Wardogs, cerastus and dominus are not listed at all from what I can see. This means the average % is assumingly lower than advertised from this sheet.
In conclusion, whilst the majority are not between 3% & 5% despite being the mean, this is because the steeper increases are being balanced out by lots of items with minimal to no changes. Most of the heavy hit items exist between 5-6.7% and are largely bigger kits or accessory items. A lot of the 0% are books of some variety, however as it's an incomplete list this is not a conclusive outcome.
Tl;DR - their earlier message was entirely correct.
Edit: these are not UK, I assumed UKR was UK retail, but Nobz are down as going from 35 - 37. They're £24 atm.
Further edit, they're direct order only items.
I'm at work and can't view the sheet, so are these the trade prices then? Cause I'm confused by this post, from the prices we saw posted the other day.
The old world prices shown seem to be going up 10-11% and not 3-5%, so I'm assuming these are the trade prices and the sheet the other day is the RRP mark up which is what we are going to be actually seeing.
Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
- 1,085 items (not their whole range)
- 378 items between 3% & 5%
- 281 above 5% with a singular item at 10% as the highest (IG vehicle accessory sprue)
- 455 items below 3%
- Overall mean average of 3.16%
I included 2.94% increases as below 3% for reference, it was a hard cut off at 3.0 and 5.0. There are a whopping 7 items at that % though so doesn't shift the numbers much.
Lots of items are not on this sheet, I did a cursory search for various imperial knights and as far as I can see only the questoris and armigers are listed. Wardogs, cerastus and dominus are not listed at all from what I can see. This means the average % is assumingly lower than advertised from this sheet.
In conclusion, whilst the majority are not between 3% & 5% despite being the mean, this is because the steeper increases are being balanced out by lots of items with minimal to no changes. Most of the heavy hit items exist between 5-6.7% and are largely bigger kits or accessory items. A lot of the 0% are books of some variety, however as it's an incomplete list this is not a conclusive outcome.
Tl;DR - their earlier message was entirely correct.
Edit: these are not UK, I assumed UKR was UK retail, but Nobz are down as going from 35 - 37. They're £24 atm.
Further edit, they're direct order only items.
I'm at work and can't view the sheet, so are these the trade prices then? Cause I'm confused by this post, from the prices we saw posted the other day.
The old world prices shown seem to be going up 10-11% and not 3-5%, so I'm assuming these are the trade prices and the sheet the other day is the RRP mark up which is what we are going to be actually seeing.
Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
This sheet is direct order only UK items, so different currency and different item set, but no old world items are up 10%.
Mallo wrote: Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
there are ~275 items on the list with 0% increase (lot of those being books in different languages) and only a single item with 10% increase
the only TOW items on that list are the bases which are also 0% increase
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Mallo wrote: Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
there are ~275 items on the list with 0% increase (lot of those being books in different languages) and only a single item with 10% increase
the only TOW items on that list are the bases which are also 0% increase
That's not true unfortunately, if you search for orc & goblin tribes for example it will find a lot of old world units/models, same is true for khemri and so on.
Danny76 wrote: I wonder on the Combat Patrol prices. And the new similar AoS ones coming. They’d be £100 perhaps.
They are currently 125 euros
For something to "start collecting", which usually amount to something like this:
Spoiler:
"13 miniatures! (counting the beacon thingie)"
I wonder if GW doesn't realize that putting the number of miniatures you get for what they're asking has become off putting, because it showcases how bad of a deal these boxes usually are.
(Disclaimer: I have linked the first result on Google I for for Combat Patrol, I know many other boxes have more minis. But still)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/12 06:17:56
Danny76 wrote: I wonder on the Combat Patrol prices.
And the new similar AoS ones coming.
They’d be £100 perhaps.
They are currently 125 euros
For something to "start collecting", which usually amount to something like this:
"13 miniatures! (counting the beacon thingie)"
I wonder if GW doesn't realize that putting the number of miniatures you get for what they're asking has become off putting, because it showcases how bad of a deal these boxes usually are.
(Disclaimer: I have linked the first result on Google I for for Combat Patrol, I know many other boxes have more minis. But still)
This always amused me about the "Start Collecting! Malignants" box I got a while back. It oh so proudly proclaims that it includes a mighty 9(!) miniatures, in rather a massive font too. Oh my! That's less than, well, many regular boxes do, let alone a bigger collection. Of course, 5 of those 9 were Hexwraiths, so cavalry instead of basic infantry. And another 3 were Spirit Hosts. And the 9th nothing less than a Mortis Engine. But the 9 really shouldn't be the focus there...
I maintain that GW's start collecting sets go through a marketing cycle. Starting out as "cheap to get started for newbies" and steadily climbing in price and content as they focus more and more on established customers. Because like it or not most starting sets are valued by those already in GW's market when starting out or fleshing out an army.
Then at some point someone in GW marketing notices that uptake is reducing, realises that the starter sets got expensive and thus releases a new set under a new name, again with the focus of getting newbies in and the cycle starts all over again.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
Funny you mention that... should we take that into account all the previous years where that wasn't the case, and they raised prices above inflation?
Absolutely! Either a justification is valid or it isn't; the answer shouldn't depend on whether it supports a predetermined position.
I assume the UK is similar to the rest of the world in that the recent inflation is in large part driven by big companies pushing up prices more than they need to cover a relatively small increase in overheads.
Hence why many companies using inflation as an excuse to raise prices are actually posting massive profits.
I dunno if GW is in the same boat.... but when they say "we’ve done our best to keep prices down", I can't help but question how honest they're being.
If they'd said "yeah, we posted great profits... but we think we can squeeze more out of it so we're putting up the price" then I'd at least respect the honesty
But, I've decreased my Warhammer spending recently anyway for various reasons, and this looks like a great reason to reduce it further or eliminate it entirely.
Charax wrote: Eh, it happens. Ordering direct is only ever a last resort anyway these days. After LGS discounts the rise should be even more negligible
On third world countries, LGS are even more expensive, so either way I'm screwed.
While it’s unfortunate they’re gone, I think GW realized that if drawing in new blood was the goal of Start Collecting!, they failed spectacularly. Mostly it was existing players scarfing up hordes of box ‘cheap’, many to be parted out and sold. I think that is a significant part of the reason for their disappearance.
Shame that the ‘entry level’ of combat patrol is so expensive, though. It’s a pretty penny to spend to get playing. If you’re going to spend that much, might just as well get the ultimate starter instead if you like Marines and Tyranids. At msrp of $210 in the US, it’s only 50 more than a single combat patrol. And you get two patrols, terrain, rules, game boards….
I bought a bunch of Start Collecting boxes when they were 65 euro. Now that they're nearly double the price for not much more in the way of miniatures I've bought exactly 1.
The fact that existing customers also buy the loss leader doesn't mean the loss leader has failed as a recruitment tool. The problem is GW don't like doing loss leaders at all anymore - even the actual *starter* sets are crap value.
What were once battalion boxes are now Combat Patrols, and whatever the AoS term for them is.
And those have very specific meanings. You buy one? And play the variant of the game named after it? You have at least a complete initial starting force, at least directly balanced against one another, including variant unit rules and abilities to make up the difference.
And so, they absolutely remain an entry level product. A one and done if needs must for a given customer.
But for those who get properly hooked, as we all did? A jumping off point. But one you can always retreat to and have a fieldable force, albeit in very specific games.
Which to be completely honest, is more than previous Battalions could say for sure.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
