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 Insectum7 wrote:

This makes me think of all the folks cosplaying as storm troopers and Darth Vader. But everybody is fine with that. Even if they're a bunch of oppressive and murderous SOBs.

The main distinction is that almost every Darth Vader cosplayer is presenting as "the bad guy". That's the fun of it. The Galactic Empire are evil, their Emperor is one of the most comically villainous villains in fiction. Any agent of the Empire that has a shred of nobility eventually defects and almost every effort to humanize the Empire is tongue in cheek.

There's definitely been a rise in people somehow believing that there's some moral parity in the Star Wars factions in recent years, which is honestly rather concerning. People have fun with Star Wars cosplay because the bad guys know they're evil. Vader's coming for you..... to engage in a cool fight with laser swords. That's the fun in it; in having clear sides to fight against one another. Not in having justifiable characters to relate to.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

Disingenious argument is disingenious.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

Disingenious argument is disingenious.

Agreed-Sisters share some similarities with Marines, but they are NOT equivalent, in-universe or out-of-universe.

 Da Boss wrote:
If that's the case Hellebore, do you think being an Eldar player makes you feel contempt for other humans and value their lives less?
Does playing Dark Eldar make you more likely to want to engage in torture?
Does playing Orks mean you'll think violence is fun?
Does playing Tyranids mean you see everyone as biomass?

Or is it specifically that the Imperium is the human faction that makes it likely to cause a social shift by normalising violent political ideas?

The Imperium makes up 50% of the model line and 90% of the fiction. The majority of 40k fiction shows the Imperium fighting evil aliens or evil humans without looking at the fact that the Imperium itself is also evil. There are some books that show that but they are few and far between.

The idea that humans would associate more readily with Orks or Tyranids than other humans is just laughable. The reason people laughed off Orks in WW2 German gear is because Orks are the comedy faction of 40k. "Haha look they're trying to be people" is literally what that is, a chimpanzee in a top hat. They're also the baddies from like 90% of fantasy books.
You can no more identify with a Tyranid than a Xenomorph and GW designed the Nids to ape the design of the Xenomorph, the baddie from Alien.

The Imperium is all humans. Normal humans, religious humans, and special super humans who also happen to win all the fights. Power fantasy wrapped in human supremacy fantasy. It even comes with its own quotable slogans so people can pretend their RPing but they're actually being bigots.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

This makes me think of all the folks cosplaying as storm troopers and Darth Vader. But everybody is fine with that. Even if they're a bunch of oppressive and murderous SOBs.

The main distinction is that almost every Darth Vader cosplayer is presenting as "the bad guy". That's the fun of it. The Galactic Empire are evil, their Emperor is one of the most comically villainous villains in fiction. Any agent of the Empire that has a shred of nobility eventually defects and almost every effort to humanize the Empire is tongue in cheek.

There's definitely been a rise in people somehow believing that there's some moral parity in the Star Wars factions in recent years, which is honestly rather concerning. People have fun with Star Wars cosplay because the bad guys know they're evil. Vader's coming for you..... to engage in a cool fight with laser swords. That's the fun in it; in having clear sides to fight against one another. Not in having justifiable characters to relate to.

That, and also there is a pretty big difference between 'cosplaying as Darth Vader is going to turn you into a sand-hating goosestepping fascist' and 'writing Darth Vader as wholly justified in his actions is weird, misses the point, and attracts a sort of fan who is really into the fascist-Empire-as-good-guys theme'.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

Disingenious argument is disingenious.

Agreed-Sisters share some similarities with Marines, but they are NOT equivalent, in-universe or out-of-universe.

Not what i meant. The argument that we shall equalise all faction identity in the name of whatever is en vogue is stupid beyond the fact that it damages consistency.

 Gert wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If that's the case Hellebore, do you think being an Eldar player makes you feel contempt for other humans and value their lives less?
Does playing Dark Eldar make you more likely to want to engage in torture?
Does playing Orks mean you'll think violence is fun?
Does playing Tyranids mean you see everyone as biomass?

Or is it specifically that the Imperium is the human faction that makes it likely to cause a social shift by normalising violent political ideas?

The Imperium makes up 50% of the model line and 90% of the fiction. The majority of 40k fiction shows the Imperium fighting evil aliens or evil humans without looking at the fact that the Imperium itself is also evil. There are some books that show that but they are few and far between.

The idea that humans would associate more readily with Orks or Tyranids than other humans is just laughable. The reason people laughed off Orks in WW2 German gear is because Orks are the comedy faction of 40k. "Haha look they're trying to be people" is literally what that is, a chimpanzee in a top hat. They're also the baddies from like 90% of fantasy books.
You can no more identify with a Tyranid than a Xenomorph and GW designed the Nids to ape the design of the Xenomorph, the baddie from Alien.

The Imperium is all humans. Normal humans, religious humans, and special super humans who also happen to win all the fights. Power fantasy wrapped in human supremacy fantasy. It even comes with its own quotable slogans so people can pretend their RPing but they're actually being bigots.

So, from your POV, what should be done? Do you agree that the Imperium is creating real world extremists due to how it's being written, and not just accidentally appealing to extremists that already exist?

Because personally, if I thought the Imperium was creating Neo-Nazis, I'd be all for just shutting it down, shuttering 40K and starting again with fiction that doesn't create fascists. It's really serious if the game is creating fascists and neo-nazis nowadays, and the game is so trivial it's absolutely not worth preserving if it is doing that.

That seems to be the stance implied by some of the arguments here. Now, I don't believe that real world neo-nazis are being created by the existence of a fictional fascist regime in a tabletop game, which is why I'm fine with it continuing to exist as is. If you think it really is creating extremists, allowing an environment for them to thrive, I just wonder why you think a trivial hobby is worth that risk?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if we're talking about satire and the imperium being terrible, there's no reason why women shouldn't also be space marines— why let men do all the horrible things when Thatcher proved women can just as easily ruin lives! hashtag girl power

Sister of Battle already has that covered, I think. I'm pretty sure they commit more war crimes than space marines, being die-hard religious fanatics who love using fire and all.
Also inquisitors. They're like, living war crimes. They don't follow the Geneva Convention, they follow the Geneva Checklist.

right, so if there's no issue with women in the setting, then there's no issue with women being space marines!

Disingenious argument is disingenious.

Agreed-Sisters share some similarities with Marines, but they are NOT equivalent, in-universe or out-of-universe.

Not what i meant. The argument that we shall equalise all faction identity in the name of whatever is en vogue is stupid beyond the fact that it damages consistency.

It wouldn't make them the same.

Sisters have a distinct identity-they're the ultra religious battle nuns of the Imperium.
Marines are much more malleable in their identity-you have the religious zealots (Black Templars), you have the Vikings (Space Wolves), you have the Knights (Dark Angels), you have the vampires/angels (Blood Angels), you have the practical minded soldiers (Ultramarines)... Basically anything you can imagine, in terms of armies, can be found among the ranks of Marines.

Except women, because they apparently have cooties.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It wouldn't make them the same.

Sisters have a distinct identity-they're the ultra religious battle nuns of the Imperium.
Marines are much more malleable in their identity-you have the religious zealots (Black Templars), you have the Vikings (Space Wolves), you have the Knights (Dark Angels), you have the vampires/angels (Blood Angels), you have the practical minded soldiers (Ultramarines)... Basically anything you can imagine, in terms of armies, can be found among the ranks of Marines.

Except women, because they apparently have cooties.

This is, fundamentally, where the failure to understand things exists.

Sisters aren't "ultra-religious battle nuns of the Imperium".
Sisters are the ultra-militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, acting as the standing army of the predominant religion of the Imperium. The entire organization exists as a loophole preventing men at arms.

Those Vikings you want? Knights? "Vampires"? Practical minded soldiery? All of those things can be found in the ranks of the Sororitas as well.

 catbarf wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

This makes me think of all the folks cosplaying as storm troopers and Darth Vader. But everybody is fine with that. Even if they're a bunch of oppressive and murderous SOBs.

The main distinction is that almost every Darth Vader cosplayer is presenting as "the bad guy". That's the fun of it. The Galactic Empire are evil, their Emperor is one of the most comically villainous villains in fiction. Any agent of the Empire that has a shred of nobility eventually defects and almost every effort to humanize the Empire is tongue in cheek.

There's definitely been a rise in people somehow believing that there's some moral parity in the Star Wars factions in recent years, which is honestly rather concerning. People have fun with Star Wars cosplay because the bad guys know they're evil. Vader's coming for you..... to engage in a cool fight with laser swords. That's the fun in it; in having clear sides to fight against one another. Not in having justifiable characters to relate to.

That, and also there is a pretty big difference between 'cosplaying as Darth Vader is going to turn you into a sand-hating goosestepping fascist' and 'writing Darth Vader as wholly justified in his actions is weird, misses the point, and attracts a sort of fan who is really into the fascist-Empire-as-good-guys theme'.

I have to apologize because I really don't have the time to respond in a more thorough way, but my observation would be that every time I see phrases like "Purge the alien" or "cleanse with holy fire" used, it's always (as I percieve it, anyway) in that same sort of gleeful playing-as-the-bad-guy sort of manner. Like, it's fun to play the bad guy and I think a lot of people can be on board with that. I think most proffessional actors, when asked, tend to agree with that. At least in many of the interviews I've seen.

The extra bit, to me at least, is that a well written bad guy will unually have some sort of arc or path that results in that character feeling justified in their actions. A bad guy with some sort of justification for their actions makes for a much more interesting story. Sometimes the best villains are ones that the audience can empathize with and follow their journey . . . up to that point where it all goes off the rails into horribleness, whatever the flavor is.

So then I think in 40k the Imperium-as-character is villainous, and it has its reasons to be villainous, and that makes the setting much more compelling. That and, in general, introducing 40k as "Imagine a universe where the Empire from Star Wars, but worse, are the good guys." was a fairly common line at some point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It wouldn't make them the same.

Sisters have a distinct identity-they're the ultra religious battle nuns of the Imperium.
Marines are much more malleable in their identity-you have the religious zealots (Black Templars), you have the Vikings (Space Wolves), you have the Knights (Dark Angels), you have the vampires/angels (Blood Angels), you have the practical minded soldiers (Ultramarines)... Basically anything you can imagine, in terms of armies, can be found among the ranks of Marines.

Except women, because they apparently have cooties.

This is, fundamentally, where the failure to understand things exists.

Sisters aren't "ultra-religious battle nuns of the Imperium".
Sisters are the ultra-militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, acting as the standing army of the predominant religion of the Imperium. The entire organization exists as a loophole preventing men at arms.

Those Vikings you want? Knights? "Vampires"? Practical minded soldiery? All of those things can be found in the ranks of the Sororitas as well.

Do they?
I'll grant you practical-minded soldiers. Not all Sisters are zealots to the point they ignore tactics and strategy, though most have enough zealotry that they can be goaded into making mistakes or poor decisions because of their faith.

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

I don't read Sisters fiction enough to say, but the core bit about them is simply that they're devotees of the Imperial Cult.

 JNAProductions wrote:

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

Unfortunately I think the issue is twofold. A: Nobody gets as much attention as Marines, and B: GW seems to avoid explicit art that they can't sell you a model for.

But I agree that Sisters should be just as variable as Marines. But of course oh so much more the IG.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

Unfortunately I think the issue is twofold. A: Nobody gets as much attention as Marines, and B: GW seems to avoid explicit art that they can't sell you a model for.

But I agree that Sisters should be just as variable as Marines. But of course oh so much more the IG.

Yeah. Ideally, all factions would be approximately equally represented, with every faction having lots of variety. No faction is too small for variety in how they play and look and all that.
But that's not how the world and GW work.

Da Boss wrote:So, from your POV, what should be done? Do you agree that the Imperium is creating real world extremists due to how it's being written, and not just accidentally appealing to extremists that already exist?

As a playerbase, *ensuring* that any sort of Imperium-larping style comments or behaviours aren't being used to mask any sort of IRL bigotry - and yes, honestly, that includes "edgy jokes". Sorry, but until we can ALL prove that we're smarter than Those Folks, we shouldn't give them be benefit of the doubt.

As a playerbase as well, we need to take seriously the growing rise of alt-right identities and personas in the hobby. I'm frankly appalled at the denial that I see going on here. Yes, it *is* ridiculous that people would be so hateful, but unfortunately, it's real. I don't care if it's just an online persona or if they're a lovely guy when you meet them in person - actions have consequences, and saying/expressing hateful comments online is no different. (And before anyone tries to suggest otherwise, no, I'm not talking "I disagree with this person, therefore they're a bigot", I'm talking about ACTUALLY bigoted comments - ie, trans people are mentally ill, women don't have the mental capacity for 40k, etc - all of which are comments that have been made on this site.)

As a company, GW should remove the major sources of ammunition that Those Folks use to support/propagandise their beliefs. Most of that comes from Space Marines - making Space Marines less of a specifically masculine power fantasy would help in that. Remove any shred of legitimacy that Those Folks can cling to. Outright retcon things, with explicit IRL statements of "we recognised that having XYZ was being used to empower groups who did not share our belief that Warhammer is for Everyone, and we do not condone their actions. We have taken steps to ABC in order to show those people that they are not welcome if they cannot tolerate the existence of people of all backgrounds."

Them stating "Warhammer is for Everyone" is a good statement, but without action and delegitimising further the folks who "will not be missed", it runs the risk of being empty air and signalling.

So, yeah, that's what I'd do.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that 40k/The Imperium is *creating* Those Folks. However, it is providing a rallying point, aesthetic, and a legitimacy for the talking points and beliefs expressed by Those Folks. The solution is to remove that as a symbol or tool of legitimacy. It doesn't require "destroying all 40k" to do - but a more hardline stance in denying Those Folks a shred of power or idea that they have a place in 40k (and in wider society).

Kanluwen wrote:Those Vikings you want? Knights? "Vampires"? Practical minded soldiery? All of those things can be found in the ranks of the Sororitas as well.

Where? Please, I'd love to see these examples, and the same degree of aesthetic range that has been afforded to the Astartes on this.
Oh, hang on...

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't read Sisters fiction enough to say, but the core bit about them is simply that they're devotees of the Imperial Cult.

So, you made your statement up. Nice.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

Unfortunately I think the issue is twofold. A: Nobody gets as much attention as Marines, and B: GW seems to avoid explicit art that they can't sell you a model for.

But I agree that Sisters should be just as variable as Marines. But of course oh so much more the IG.

Yeah. Ideally, all factions would be approximately equally represented, with every faction having lots of variety. No faction is too small for variety in how they play and look and all that.
But that's not how the world and GW work.

Sure, but I'd still argue that the best course of action is for GW to explore that variety, rather than continue pounding more styles/identities/expression into Marines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

Unfortunately I think the issue is twofold. A: Nobody gets as much attention as Marines, and B: GW seems to avoid explicit art that they can't sell you a model for.

But I agree that Sisters should be just as variable as Marines. But of course oh so much more the IG.

Yeah. Ideally, all factions would be approximately equally represented, with every faction having lots of variety. No faction is too small for variety in how they play and look and all that.
But that's not how the world and GW work.

Sure, but I'd still argue that the best course of action is for GW to explore that variety, rather than continue pounding more styles/identities/expression into Marines.

Why not both?

Make Marines be able to be any gender as a good first step, and work towards raising the prominence of other factions.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sure, but I'd still argue that the best course of action is for GW to explore that variety, rather than continue pounding more styles/identities/expression into Marines.

Why not both?

Make Marines be able to be any gender as a good first step, and work towards raising the prominence of other factions.

Agreed. And, let's be completely honest, it will be MUCH quicker/faster for GW to include women Astartes than redesigning/meaningfully including variety into other factions - after all, it took barely any effort with Custodes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

Unfortunately I think the issue is twofold. A: Nobody gets as much attention as Marines, and B: GW seems to avoid explicit art that they can't sell you a model for.

But I agree that Sisters should be just as variable as Marines. But of course oh so much more the IG.

A: Is gw gonna flagship issue and not a reason to water down lore, alas again here is where the disingenious and actual slippery slope comes in as we have seen in this thread by some posters and B: CDS, chapterhous derangement syndrome is a thing for gw.

Should gw pad out other factions than marines? Sure, but it doesn't make sense to do so for them since they can ease their supply chain strain if they "only" need to produce one line of things for the most part. But then again GWs margines are so high they truly could lower their prices a lot as a plastics manufacturer even and make mass sales on the other factions aswell if they would put their mind to it, but it's probably not as high a pure earnings rate that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why not both?

Make Marines be able to be any gender as a good first step, and work towards raising the prominence of other factions.

Lore consistency and by extent faction identity.

That is a good enough reason for a fictional universe alone. You don't have to like it but as it stands it would damage their current cannonised version of lore.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

But are there any stories or artwork of Sisters matching something like the Space Wolves? Or White Scars?
Is there the same encouragement from GW to make Sisters anything besides space nuns? Because there's a LOT of variation shown with Marines. I don't see that with Sisters.

Unfortunately I think the issue is twofold. A: Nobody gets as much attention as Marines, and B: GW seems to avoid explicit art that they can't sell you a model for.

But I agree that Sisters should be just as variable as Marines. But of course oh so much more the IG.

Yeah. Ideally, all factions would be approximately equally represented, with every faction having lots of variety. No faction is too small for variety in how they play and look and all that.
But that's not how the world and GW work.

Sure, but I'd still argue that the best course of action is for GW to explore that variety, rather than continue pounding more styles/identities/expression into Marines.

Why not both?

Make Marines be able to be any gender as a good first step, and work towards raising the prominence of other factions.

Imo this is not the thread for it, and I think you can find my views and reasons in the fairly recent thread on the topic.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lore consistency

In 40k? Unlikely.

and by extent faction identity.

I've never thought of Space Marines being all-male as an important part of their faction identity. So much so that mine aren't. Are my Space Marines... not Space Marines, because they don't have the same "faction identity"?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Those Vikings you want? Knights? "Vampires"? Practical minded soldiery? All of those things can be found in the ranks of the Sororitas as well.

Where? Please, I'd love to see these examples, and the same degree of aesthetic range that has been afforded to the Astartes on this.
Oh, hang on...

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't read Sisters fiction enough to say, but the core bit about them is simply that they're devotees of the Imperial Cult.

So, you made your statement up. Nice.

Yeah, no. The aesthetics of the Sororitas can be as varied as the Astartes and the Guard.

That they have not been is a problem in and of itself.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why not both?

Make Marines be able to be any gender as a good first step, and work towards raising the prominence of other factions.

Lore consistency and by extent faction identity.

That is a good enough reason for a fictional universe alone. You don't have to like it but as it stands it would damage their current cannonised version of lore.

Lore consistency hasn't been a pressing point since 1987.
And what about Marines' themes forces them to be all male? They're the broadest faction, thematically speaking... Again, except for women.

Don't do it . . .

Sgt Smudge: So your approach would be to make changes and statements that neo-nazis would disapprove of, so that they are no longer interested in 40K? Seems like you could just retcon the Imperium as a whole if you wanted that, just get rid of it and make it a more palatable far future civilisation. It's not that important that the Imperium exists, as it is fictional after all.

As to giving people the benefit of the doubt, I disagree there. I think it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume ill intent where you don't have to. But of course, everyone can draw their own line there, that's very much a personal thing.

 Da Boss wrote:

As to giving people the benefit of the doubt, I disagree there. I think it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume ill intent where you don't have to. But of course, everyone can draw their own line there, that's very much a personal thing.

Guilty until proven innocent. What could go wrong?

"Purge with holy fire!"

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why not both?

Make Marines be able to be any gender as a good first step, and work towards raising the prominence of other factions.

Lore consistency and by extent faction identity.

That is a good enough reason for a fictional universe alone. You don't have to like it but as it stands it would damage their current cannonised version of lore.

Lore consistency hasn't been a pressing point since 1987.
And what about Marines' themes forces them to be all male? They're the broadest faction, thematically speaking... Again, except for women.

That is a bs argument easily disproven from the consistency on faction identity in most cases since 3rd onwards. Try again but with a real argument instead of browbeating attempts.
And no they are by design NOT the broadest faction just the one which minimal attributes got exagerated by gw to sell more types of the flagship to flagship.

Frankly, all this talk devolving back to previous locked threads on the FSM topic shows me that it's less about being interested about the current actual lore and factions of the setting and the fact that it should be actively shaped around what you demand as acceptable in terms of today's "modern" sensibilities.

In which case, why even bother engaging with this hobby and its lore at all? If you feel that it doesn't meet your needs or your expectations for what is considered suitably "diverse" or "anti-fascist", isn't it an inordinately more work for you to try and change a hobby to something you think it should be rather than just enjoying it for what it is? Or maybe get that fix in a different universe that isn't focused so much on warfare. Honestly, half this discussion about representation and identity politics can be better found in slice-of-life/non-war hobbies where it would actually be more relevant in a non-galactic war dystopian setting.

It's like going to a Korean restaurant and complaining there's no authentic Ethiopian dishes available and having a tantrum that you can't believe how racist and uncosmopolitan they are that they would exclude such options from their menu and looking to break down and change their offerings until the restaurant basically loses what made them successful to begin with.

Can we get back to the "Imperium enables closet authoritarians through misunderstood satire" thing, please? That hasn't been fully explored yet, imo. It'd be a shame to lose the thread to the FSM topic.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we get back to the "Imperium enables closet authoritarians through misunderstood satire" thing, please? That hasn't been fully explored yet, imo. It'd be a shame to lose the thread to the FSM topic.

I mean they still really haven't addressed the points made by Da Boss and myself regarding how they're basically using the same fallacious arguments of "videogames=kids becoming more violent" and the moral panic of the 80s' for DnD, so I think this is basically them shifting goalposts to try and avoid addressing that it's pretty ridiculous to assume that 40k is a direct gateway to become a far-right extremist and it must be purged by rainbows and diversity quotas to save the hapless fools that buy those damn cissy space marines. That or maybe they'll try and say Putin's invasion of Ukraine was inspired by a 40k match he had with Xi Jinping lol.

It's a bit funny considering that these people are the ones who would likely make fun of conspiracy theorists but end up looking just as crazy with their own take on this.