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Higher Initiative could allow that model to choose the order of attack.

So, let’s say my dude is I6, and has been mobbed by I3 Infantry, lead by an I5 character.

Clearly, my opponent’s plan is to chaff me to death, the I3 dudes making noble sacrifices to stack the subsequent combat boost for the I5 guy, in the hope he’ll pummel me to death.

Where I have a higher initiative by 1 (compared to the highest), I get to pick the first combatant. Which in several cases is going to be the character. Or might be a lowlier spod with a silly grin and a Powerfist.

If my I is higher by 2, 3 or more? That’s how many of the attacking models I can choose to fight first. And declaring that order before any dice are rolled.

I’d need to properly refamiliarise myself with the stat ranges of course. But my suggestion does offer a perk for being more reactive and that,

The 2nd ed combat system is actually a bit of an oddity, as I recall Rogue Trader's initial one was more like the more well known WHFB one that was like most systems.

When I looked at ways to streamline 2nd ed.'s close combat system, a key factor was that the points were what they were, and were based on the system it was built with.

Thus, options were limited if one wanted to preserve that integrity. The solution I came up with (and you can read all of it) was try to get the same statistical result with less dice. And you can do it. It's actually a little different because there is a point where more attack dice are a liability because 1s hurt you more than 6s help you.

If you want to accomplish the same thing with batch rolling, you'd likely have to move into the realm of creating a matrix where attack values are plugged in and cross-indexed to get a result and this is then plugged into a second matrix for the defender.

This is because the game was built around the advantages of individual outnumbering, parries, WS advantages and save modifiers. On top of that we layer special weapons, unique unit abilities and named characters. There also must be a way for position to retain its importance as this was extremely important in 2nd, less so later on.

How would that look? I have no idea. One option would be to create an aggregate attack value and add some dice to it, and compare it to an aggregate defense value in which each casualty deducts so many points from the total. So a force that scores 21 points kills 3 models with a defense of 7. This would incorporate saves in the defensive point value. It would have to be simultaneous.

The problem is that given the various options, weapons, modifiers, and special rules geared to the old system, the mathhammer would take longer than just playing the game as written. Obviously, if you're willing to accept less fidelity, it gets easier, but then a bunch of special advantages vanish, and those all cost points that are now wasted.

My take is that it is what it is. We can play 2,500 points in a session without difficulty. If you play often, don't switch systems so you have to recheck rules, it goes very fast because you're leaning into the next step. Part of 2nd's reputation for being slow was from new players who were comparing it to Fantasy.

Also: drop the psykers, or if you must, just use the basic rules. The whole game-within-a game thing was a time sink, and around here people had two lists: one with them one without. Perhaps people were burned out on the magic system's dominance in fantasy.

I was one of those players, but I liked it better because piles of grunts could actually beat a hero, which they could not dream of doing in WHFB 5th ed.

Psykers could be at least partially restrained with some kind of Max Levels Cap.

It may have to vary between Armies (Eldar for instance must take either a Farseer, or an Avatar as the army leader). But smaller games could have say, 4 Levels Max. Whether you squeeze in a single Lvl 4, a brace of Lv 2 or what have you is down to the player?

 RustyNumber wrote:
Bit of a bump here, search function isn't working and this is the latest 2nd edition thread I could find -

Any advice on starting 2nd for fun in this day and age? Interested in giving a go after watching Minisodes on yt, looks like whacky fun. I already found the Battle Bible and Anvils wargear/psychich/strategy card PDFs. I edited out the unnecessary pages (armies we don't use, points covered by Anvils cards) as applicable to save on printing cost. I didn't print off any templates (have The Old World ones but I guess there's more than flamer, 3 and 5 inch?) or vehicle cards (they're in the battle bible I think) and I think any special dice can just be done with a D6.

Anything else I've missed?

For armour penetration, I'd recommend a cheap D&D polyhedral set of dice - you might need to roll some of them more than once, but there's something to rolling multiple different types of dice when trying to destroy a vehicle.

 Dysartes wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:
Bit of a bump here, search function isn't working and this is the latest 2nd edition thread I could find -

Any advice on starting 2nd for fun in this day and age? Interested in giving a go after watching Minisodes on yt, looks like whacky fun. I already found the Battle Bible and Anvils wargear/psychich/strategy card PDFs. I edited out the unnecessary pages (armies we don't use, points covered by Anvils cards) as applicable to save on printing cost. I didn't print off any templates (have The Old World ones but I guess there's more than flamer, 3 and 5 inch?) or vehicle cards (they're in the battle bible I think) and I think any special dice can just be done with a D6.

Anything else I've missed?

For armour penetration, I'd recommend a cheap D&D polyhedral set of dice - you might need to roll some of them more than once, but there's something to rolling multiple different types of dice when trying to destroy a vehicle.

To addd to this:

You might be able to find a free dice rolling app if you don’t want to buy some polyhedrals. A lot of wargamers come to the game from RPGs, so your opponent might have some if you don’t. Just a quick reminder that 2d6 is not the same as a d12. The stacks of odd dice rolled make for some odd probability curves.

Fair - I was just thinking that if someone was wanting the old-school game experience, then the old-school dice-rolling experience may as well be part of it. And a single polyhedral set isn't a big expense, really.

 Dysartes wrote:
Fair - I was just thinking that if someone was wanting the old-school game experience, then the old-school dice-rolling experience may as well be part of it. And a single polyhedral set isn't a big expense, really.

Oh absolutely. Wacky math rocks are great, and add to the nostalgia. And in the greater scheme of things, not that expensive and easy to find. Also available in a mind blowing array of colors.

I know personally, I dislike games that need me to buy bespoke dice that I use just for that one though. Ones with wacky symbols that I’d never remember, that will have no use outside that game. And I’m no stranger to buying dice. My dice bag could double as a murder weapon. But I understand that dice can be a barrier to entry, and there are ways around it.

Lots of games use different sized dice, so investing in a set is not a bad idea. Even if you don’t roll them in non 2nd edition 40k games, you can still use them as wound trackers. You are not going to accidentally pick up that d12 tracking wounds on your tank when you are scrounging up all the d6s you can find when rolling buckets of dakka.

 Nevelon wrote:
I know personally, I dislike games that need me to buy bespoke dice that I use just for that one though. Ones with wacky symbols that I’d never remember, that will have no use outside that game. And I’m no stranger to buying dice. My dice bag could double as a murder weapon. But I understand that dice can be a barrier to entry, and there are ways around it.

Like artillery dice? Scatter dice? Sustained fire dice?

GW was all in on the patented proprietary dice back in the day. I notice that Bolt Action also uses special dice as markers because the designers are obviously out of control addicts.

You could just paint some d6s. No idea how much they cost or how rare they are today.

Thing is? At least Scatter Dice and Titan Aiming Dice served a specific purpose.

The former is solid for generating a random direction. You could do the same with charts and tables, but that’s more involved. And would involve a protractor at least to determine exact angles, and even then you’d [i]still]/i] have arguments over whether the line of scatter is the proscribed 36 degrees, or perhaps 37.5 degrees. Because we can be an argumentative bunch.

Titan Aiming Dice, Sustained Fire Dice, Artillery Dice (2,4,6,8,10, Misfire) you could replicate with reference tables to translate a D6 roll (1 is a Jam, 2 and 3 are one hit, 4 and 5 are two hits, 6 is three hits for instance). But the bespoke dice just save that little bit of time.

All of those at least have simply symbols. For me, the more abstract or in-universe the symbols become, the more there is to remember and the less interested I am.

Outright exceptions include and aren’t necessarily limited to Epic 40k and BFG Order dice. Those aren’t for rolling. They’re signifiers, and once assigned I’ve time to check my chart (until it’s embedded in my memory), as they persist for longer than “I’ve rolled, and will now remove the resulting dice facings”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another example of “could be done with a D6, but this does work” would be the classic HeroQuest dice.

Six sides. 3 skulls, indicating a hit. 2 Hero Shields, indicating a Hero Save. 1 Evil Shield, indicating a monster has saved.

You could easily replace that with standard D6. Everyone hits on a 4+. Heroes save on a 5+, Monsters on a 6+.

But the HeroQuest dice are just…fun. Sure I’m definitely biased here. But you’ll just have to accept said bias

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I know personally, I dislike games that need me to buy bespoke dice that I use just for that one though. Ones with wacky symbols that I’d never remember, that will have no use outside that game. And I’m no stranger to buying dice. My dice bag could double as a murder weapon. But I understand that dice can be a barrier to entry, and there are ways around it.

Like artillery dice? Scatter dice? Sustained fire dice?

GW was all in on the patented proprietary dice back in the day. I notice that Bolt Action also uses special dice as markers because the designers are obviously out of control addicts.

You could just paint some d6s. No idea how much they cost or how rare they are today.

Artillery/scatter at least worked in multiple GW systems at the time. It’s more the stuff like the HeroQuest dice Mad Doc was talking about that bug me. I think one of the GW fantasy RPGs from FF went hard on the custom dice thing, with multiple sizes and cryptic facings. And some specialist games like Betrayal at Calth.

It’s not an hard stop deal breaker, I just dislike it.

For new players looking for retro games, I’m sure the internet can provide all the dice needed. For most old GW games, I just need to dig deep into the archives personally.

More rational thoughts on HeroQuest?

They were a single item solution to simplifying dice based combat, for a game aimed at those 8+.

And sure, they’re abstract. But neatly so. Skulls are self explanatory. Shields self explanatory. The distinction between the shields slightly more abstract.

Compare to the Blood Bowl Block Dice. OK, I’m not going to pretend they’re complex hieroglyphics. But despite passing familiarity? I couldn’t tell you, or necessarily guess off the top of my head, what each side means, let alone when you’re comparing rolls.

Mind you? I’m notoriously crap at Blood Bowl. Been playing it on and off since it’s 2nd Edition. Never won a match. Can count the number of touchdowns on one hand. So please don’t take my thinks here as any kind of metric! I just can’t get my head round it, which of course is going to impact me learning the dice proper.