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Exactly, that lets you keep the GrimDark Emo Drukari; the "my race is dying" depressed Craftworlders hiding on Craftworlds and doing stuff in the background - and then a force of unique looking Yinnari attacking and striking and trying to rebuild their empire of old.

Considering many of the Eldar joining are younger there would indeed be more scope for them either mixing up armours and parts or even making their own unique creations. They might even dip into "forbidden technologies". Eg one way to do it would be to have them start using robots instead of wraiths.

We need Chaos Mortals.

Daemons, Knights and Astartes are all fine and well and rock hard. But it’s the Cultists and mortal turn coats that keep the Imperium chasing its tail. They’re the core threat. The rot that festers and grows under The Imperium’s self inflicted brutality toward its citizens.

And we know they exist at all levels of Imperial society, from Planetary Governors right down to the mankiest, most barely still human scavvies and mutants of a Hive World’s sump.


Yet they’re entirely absent from the game. The now near legendary Imperial Armour 13 did them proud of course, but as with the Black Crusade “Lost and the Damned” it didn’t receive the full bodied support such a force requires.

Now we have Imperial Agents? It’s high time the Ordos Hereticus and Malleus had someone to go chasing.

The unwashed, unkempt, insane masses that make up those with genuinely the best chance of overthrowing Imperial rule through number and ubiquity.

Oh, and throw in Dark Mechanicum. Just with a better name.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We need Chaos Mortals.

Yet they’re entirely absent from the game.
.

They aren't their own faction, that's true.

I don't have the Chaos dex, but the indexes I thought had units for:

Cult Leaders
Cursed Cultists
Regular Cultists
Traitor Guard
Beastmen

What's more, I thought that some of 9th's limitations on what cultists could do had been lifted as well.

That's not to say that I don't want a renegades and Heretics or mortal faction- I like sandboxes, so of course I do.

Just pointing out that "They're entirely absent from the game" is hyperbole.

I had forgotten about those guys.

Definitely need their own Codex though.

They would definitely be cooler if they had one, that's for sure. I'd buy a dew like that in a heartbeat, because as a small scale narrative guy, these units are awesome.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I had forgotten about those guys.

Definitely need their own Codex though.

I agree. Because they don't belong in a book titled Codex CSM.

 PenitentJake wrote:
They would definitely be cooler if they had one, that's for sure. I'd buy a dew like that in a heartbeat, because as a small scale narrative guy, these units are awesome.

And as a Guard/AdMech player, I don't want to see more codices that are effectively "knockoffs" until they actually get a good handle on the identity of those two factions.

The current setup of those mortal elements in CSM works fine.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
They would definitely be cooler if they had one, that's for sure. I'd buy a dew like that in a heartbeat, because as a small scale narrative guy, these units are awesome.

And as a Guard/AdMech player, I don't want to see more codices that are effectively "knockoffs" until they actually get a good handle on the identity of those two factions.

The current setup of those mortal elements in CSM works fine.

And yes, I agree- certainly the Guard dex should come out first, and hopefully it will address some of those issues. Fixing Admech is harder since their dex is already out, but yeah, it sounds like they need work too.

I think it's important to acknowledge though that most people in this thread probably want to see some things fixed before we get new stuff- the argument applies elsewhere too; lots of advocates for Exodites, but even most of them probably still want all Aspects and Phoenix Lords in Plastic first.

Nowhere in the thread does it suggest that GW should create new armies and ignore everything else; it's just that the question was about which new factions COULD exist, rather than what does or does not need to be done before those new armies drop.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We need Chaos Mortals.

Yet they’re entirely absent from the game.
.

They aren't their own faction, that's true.

I don't have the Chaos dex, but the indexes I thought had units for:

Cult Leaders
Cursed Cultists
Regular Cultists
Traitor Guard
Beastmen

What's more, I thought that some of 9th's limitations on what cultists could do had been lifted as well.

That's not to say that I don't want a renegades and Heretics or mortal faction- I like sandboxes, so of course I do.

Just pointing out that "They're entirely absent from the game" is hyperbole.

FWIW, I've been working on an alpha legion mortals army using the GSC rules, and it lines up pretty well. I'm just refluffing/modeling all the xenos stuff as mutations, magic, and daemons. Cultist = cultists. Daemonettes/blood letters = purestrains. Witches = magus/the new guy. Etc. The only hurdle I've run into is that I'm not sure what unit (if any) should use the patriarch rules. It's tempting to use a daemon prince for that, but an argument could be made for just using a chaos marine and explain his stats as basically the law of conservation of ninjutsu in action.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
If they did come around to Ynnari again I think that would be the perfect place for Exodite models. You'd only need 1-2 different units, and perhaps a character. If it's one of those "character option in the unit box" things, all the better.

I feel like Yinnari has wound up with no energy behind it.
I think it comes from a period when GW made some odd choices. IT was the same period that GW went for Primaris as a "second" marine army within regular marine armies instead of just releasing a new version of Marine armour and a model update. Yinnari was basically "how to make a new faction by only making 1 boxed set of 3 models".

Since then its basically floundered as a lore concept and not much else.



I could get behind Yinnari being expanded to have Exodites and Corsairs; but I think that if it went down that pathway it would end up a bit like Imperial collected armies - so many armies included that it ends up overpowered because you can pick and choose from such a wide variety of rosters.
Also I feel like just putting other Eldar armies into Yinnari is a lazy approach that lacks creativity and frustrates fans. Those who like Exodites as a concept don't want 3 models in a "collective" army; they want a full army. The lore behind the game supports the view that Exodites can operate at the mass army level; they do have a unique visual appearance compared to both other Eldar and other forces; and they have potential to be a full faction.



Honestly if GW wanted to expand Yinnari now as its own army I'd rather see them make it its own thing (yes even if that meant no exodites investment). Unique models, unique army, unique everything.

with the lore continuing forward, too, i think you could easily make unique ynnari models. blend craftworld and drukhari aesthetics for something distinctly both and neither, rather than just letting you use the models from both armies. say that enough time has passed within the ynnari for these distinct groups to begin sharing the tools of war amongst themselves, or something like that

My mind goes to the visarch:



He's supposed to be wearing pre-fall armor, so maybe leaning into a "reclaim the empire' angle with "antique" armor designs might be a good idea.

On my passion for Chaos Mortals?

Background wise? What’s more 40K than Mere Humans, sufficiently swollen with gifted, stolen or borrowed power, in their multitude thrown against Astartes and winning.

Even if it’s just “and you thought a hangover or come down was bad” psykers that can turn entire regiments of Guard insides out on a whim. Usually shortly before they turn inside out.

In fact, if GW decided to sideline Slaanesh and let Vashtorr take its place, I would have no problem with it.

GW simply doesn't dare to put out miniatures in the style we WANT and DESIRED, for obvious reasons. It doesn't have many units that people think are cool, except for the Emperor's children. I don't know how many people think that fat eater and his car are cool, or those daemons that don't really have much aesthetic appeal and are not cool.

If Vashtorr took its place, we would undoubtedly get a lot of cool stuff————half-mechanical half-demon units. There would be a lot of new badass daemon engines, cyberdaemons, and even Warhammer 40K versions of Icon of Sin, and chaos lords in a giant red power armor————That is exclusive equipment that only Chaos Lords who serve Vashtorr can possess.
.

WWW-STL wrote:
In fact, if GW decided to sideline Slaanesh and let Vashtorr take its place, I would have no problem with it.

GW simply doesn't dare to put out miniatures in the style we WANT and DESIRED, for obvious reasons. It doesn't have many units that people think are cool, except for the Emperor's children. I don't know how many people think that fat eater and his car are cool, or those daemons that don't really have much aesthetic appeal and are not cool.

If Vashtorr took its place, we would undoubtedly get a lot of cool stuff————half-mechanical half-demon units. There would be a lot of new badass daemon engines, cyberdaemons, and even Warhammer 40K versions of Icon of Sin, and chaos lords in a giant red power armor————That is exclusive equipment that only Chaos Lords who serve Vashtorr can possess.
.

I really like seeing the alternate takes on Slaaneshi excess other than just being horny. The glutton is a great example, actually Noise Marine murderers is another.

Clearly ugly Chaos figures sell, because the entire Nurgle line exists and is the biggest of the God-specific ranges. Seductive daemonettes have a place within Slaanesh, obviously, but they certainly are not the entirety of Slaanesh and I don't think the appetite for sexy models is as high as you are suggesting. I do think GW should keep daemonettes in the model range though, the current ones are appropriately disconcerting.

WWW-STL wrote:
In fact, if GW decided to sideline Slaanesh and let Vashtorr take its place, I would have no problem with it.

GW simply doesn't dare to put out miniatures in the style we WANT and DESIRED, for obvious reasons. It doesn't have many units that people think are cool, except for the Emperor's children. I don't know how many people think that fat eater and his car are cool, or those daemons that don't really have much aesthetic appeal and are not cool.

If Vashtorr took its place, we would undoubtedly get a lot of cool stuff————half-mechanical half-demon units. There would be a lot of new badass daemon engines, cyberdaemons, and even Warhammer 40K versions of Icon of Sin, and chaos lords in a giant red power armor————That is exclusive equipment that only Chaos Lords who serve Vashtorr can possess.
.

Since we need not eliminate one to have the other, why not just hope we get a faction for Vashtor without losing Slaanesh?

Whether you like Slaanesh or not, they are a pivotal antagonist for Aeldari, they complete the classic chaos pantheon and an they ARE a favourite chaos god for many.

 Haighus wrote:

I really like seeing the alternate takes on Slaaneshi excess other than just being horny. The glutton is a great example, actually Noise Marine murderers is another.

While I agree, and think it is cool to have other forms of excess in the army, if you look at violent mental disorders, many are connected with sexual dysfunction, neurosis and other disorders. Obsessing over being good at music or gluttony doesn't have the same presence among violent offenders as sexual dysfunction. And cults using sexuality as a means of recruitment and control is well documented, whereas feeding people to excess, or having them obsess over music is far less common.

 Haighus wrote:

Clearly ugly Chaos figures sell, because the entire Nurgle line exists and is the biggest of the God-specific ranges. Seductive daemonettes have a place within Slaanesh, obviously, but they certainly are not the entirety of Slaanesh and I don't think the appetite for sexy models is as high as you are suggesting. I do think GW should keep daemonettes in the model range though, the current ones are appropriately disconcerting.

I think there are some people who may stay away from hypersexualized models for political reasons; there may be some people whose sense of attraction is more piqued by well dressed and accessorized people than by naked or scantily clad ones- it's amazing the role style can play in attracting a partner.

But if you ask any Slaanesh player their favourite Daemonettes, they're likely going to say the Diaz sculpts, and every time they are re-released "for a limited time only" GW make FAT bank. If you look at Wargames Exclusive, Artel, or Raging Heroes, it's quite obvious that sexy minis sell at least as well as the ugly ones.

And if you want to bring it back to 40k, I'm sure I can dig up a 60 page thread on fat Lelith or Beefy Escher.

 PenitentJake wrote:

WWW-STL wrote:
In fact, if GW decided to sideline Slaanesh and let Vashtorr take its place, I would have no problem with it.

GW simply doesn't dare to put out miniatures in the style we WANT and DESIRED, for obvious reasons. It doesn't have many units that people think are cool, except for the Emperor's children. I don't know how many people think that fat eater and his car are cool, or those daemons that don't really have much aesthetic appeal and are not cool.

If Vashtorr took its place, we would undoubtedly get a lot of cool stuff————half-mechanical half-demon units. There would be a lot of new badass daemon engines, cyberdaemons, and even Warhammer 40K versions of Icon of Sin, and chaos lords in a giant red power armor————That is exclusive equipment that only Chaos Lords who serve Vashtorr can possess.
.

Since we need not eliminate one to have the other, why not just hope we get a faction for Vashtor without losing Slaanesh?

 Haighus wrote:

I really like seeing the alternate takes on Slaaneshi excess other than just being horny. The glutton is a great example, actually Noise Marine murderers is another.

While I agree, and think it is cool to have other forms of excess in the army, if you look at violent mental disorders, many are connected with sexual dysfunction, neurosis and other disorders. Obsessing over being good at music or gluttony doesn't have the same presence among violent offenders as sexual dysfunction. And cults using sexuality as a means of recruitment and control is well documented, whereas feeding people to excess, or having them obsess over music is far less common.

Not sure what the relevance is of mental disorders? Chaos isn't a mental illness, and "violent mental disorders" are the tiny minority of serious mental illness in real life. Chaos doesn't follow any pattern related to real mental illness. This isn't a good angle to go down.

I think Slaaneshi sexual excess being commonly depicted in BL materialis because GW writers find it easy or convenient to use for whatever reason. But it only seems to be a common method in some areas of society. Gluttony and excessive consumption is the way Slaaneshi nobles are often portrayed, such as the Glaw family. Excessive perfection of violent arts is the common method for warriors (like Chaos Marines in particular). I'd argue that for much of the existence of 40k, the violent perfectionism and noise Marine depictions were the most common depictions, really until Chaos daemons splintered off as their own faction. GW seems to be highlighting that aspect more again in AoS, and I'd expect the same when they do Emperor's Children.

 Haighus wrote:

Clearly ugly Chaos figures sell, because the entire Nurgle line exists and is the biggest of the God-specific ranges. Seductive daemonettes have a place within Slaanesh, obviously, but they certainly are not the entirety of Slaanesh and I don't think the appetite for sexy models is as high as you are suggesting. I do think GW should keep daemonettes in the model range though, the current ones are appropriately disconcerting.

I think there are some people who may stay away from hypersexualized models for political reasons; there may be some people whose sense of attraction is more piqued by well dressed and accessorized people than by naked or scantily clad ones- it's amazing the role style can play in attracting a partner.

But if you ask any Slaanesh player their favourite Daemonettes, they're likely going to say the Diaz sculpts, and every time they are re-released "for a limited time only" GW make FAT bank. If you look at Wargames Exclusive, Artel, or Raging Heroes, it's quite obvious that sexy minis sell at least as well as the ugly ones.

And if you want to bring it back to 40k, I'm sure I can dig up a 60 page thread on fat Lelith or Beefy Escher.

Not going to argue such models are unpopular, I'm pushing back on the assertion that they are the only form of models in general or Slaanesh in particular that are popular. Those threads are 60 pages long because there are large numbers with the opposite viewpoint too that generate discussion.

Thing is?

Daemonettes, background wise, aren’t sexy. They use a glamour to beguile opponents. But they remain horrific to look upon, and drop the glamour when it’s time to take a life.

The other reason sexualised depictions of Slaanesh worshippers are most often used is because it's easier to sculpt. It's a convenient shorthand that doesn't require any further explanation. If you look at a Noise Marine, like the classic guitar-bolter one, it's not immediately obvious to the non-initiated that this guy is dedicated to the God of Excess. Even once you've painted it all the garish colours you still have to explain the whole thing about being so excessively indulgent that only the wildest sensations have any meaning. That's a much more nuanced and interesting take on Slaanesh, IMO, but it makes for a much less clearly defined model aesthetic, so it's a problem for GW since they're fundamentally about selling models.

Slipspace wrote:
The other reason sexualised depictions of Slaanesh worshippers are most often used is because it's easier to sculpt. It's a convenient shorthand that doesn't require any further explanation. If you look at a Noise Marine, like the classic guitar-bolter one, it's not immediately obvious to the non-initiated that this guy is dedicated to the God of Excess. Even once you've painted it all the garish colours you still have to explain the whole thing about being so excessively indulgent that only the wildest sensations have any meaning. That's a much more nuanced and interesting take on Slaanesh, IMO, but it makes for a much less clearly defined model aesthetic, so it's a problem for GW since they're fundamentally about selling models.

That was true 16 years ago (when the current daemonettes were released). If you take a look at the AoS slaanesh range, they did a wonderful job representing excess without going for "they like sex lul".

I fully expect that when GW goes to update the daemonettes (and seekers and chariots) we'll get something that matches better with the AoS range.

in the meantime, i'll stick to CreatureCaster's Demons of Ecstasy

Apart from how they go together (I really hate the arms) I don't get the beef with current Daemonettes.

They're vaguely lithe humanoids that from afar could be confused as beautiful but then you get closer and you see the sharp teeth, hooved feet and claws which I think encapsulates Slaanesh pretty well.

From afar it's all ecstasy and sensation then when you get in among it the real horror sets in.

Also, this idea that only sex can make a Slaanesh cult is utterly absurd. Starving Imperial citizens given the chance to eat all they want and experience culinary delights unheard of. The drudgery and monotony of labouring in a Manufactorum broken up by hidden music clubs and artistic displays. A chance to let one's passions run wild no matter what they are.
Those are all things that have happened in our past already.
GW just hasn't expanded Slaanesh because it wasn't as easy as the other three Gods and writers never really made the effort either.

The deamonette kit is actually rather neat in how it swaps with the others. Charios, seeker riders and deamonettes all use interchangeable connection points so you can swap parts around effortlessly.

Having read the Liber Chaotica there ARE some really neat deamonette style creatures in there that have other features like whip arms and other elements that I think would be neat to see.

I do think some people just want the Diaz style of sexy deamonettes back and won't accept anything else.


I think excess has always been a part of Slaanesh, but in the past it was always presented in a very "excess brings pleasure". I think also because GW likely wanted to keep fatter models to Nurgle; smarter to Tzeentch and more fighty to Khorne. Which I think made a lot of sense when all 4 were in one army originally.

With them separated fully in AoS and kind of heading that way in 40K, I think it opens up for allowing gluttons and other excesses to appear with slaanesh styles and themes because now you're not stepping on Nurgle's design toes. It also creates loads of gaps in the model lineup for tactical slots and functions that previously were handled by another god's unit.

 Gert wrote:
Apart from how they go together (I really hate the arms) I don't get the beef with current Daemonettes.

They're vaguely lithe humanoids that from afar could be confused as beautiful but then you get closer and you see the sharp teeth, hooved feet and claws which I think encapsulates Slaanesh pretty well.

From afar it's all ecstasy and sensation then when you get in among it the real horror sets in.

my issue with them is that theyre too static and their proportions are too cartoony

My issue is mostly with the seeker riders. The mounts are just too small. You REALLY see it with the mortal seeker riders.

The new Exalted Seekers are sized properly for the riders and I'd love to see them roll out for the deamonettes oneday even if it meant they'd all be upscaled.



Chariots are a cool kit but always always feel out of place in 40K. In Old World/AOS perfect; in 40K they feel like they should have a bunch of bolt-on gun emplacements or something
(oh and freaking heck give them rolled up whips not elongated ones!)

 Overread wrote:
My issue is mostly with the seeker riders. The mounts are just too small. You REALLY see it with the mortal seeker riders.

The new Exalted Seekers are sized properly for the riders and I'd love to see them roll out for the deamonettes oneday even if it meant they'd all be upscaled.



Chariots are a cool kit but always always feel out of place in 40K. In Old World/AOS perfect; in 40K they feel like they should have a bunch of bolt-on gun emplacements or something
(oh and freaking heck give them rolled up whips not elongated ones!)

the new ones are EXALTED seekers, so it kinda makes sense for the old ones to be smaller. Still doesn't excuse the crazy difference in dynamism between the two. Slaanesh should be the one with lithe and agile demons

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Overread wrote:
My issue is mostly with the seeker riders. The mounts are just too small. You REALLY see it with the mortal seeker riders.

The new Exalted Seekers are sized properly for the riders and I'd love to see them roll out for the deamonettes oneday even if it meant they'd all be upscaled.



Chariots are a cool kit but always always feel out of place in 40K. In Old World/AOS perfect; in 40K they feel like they should have a bunch of bolt-on gun emplacements or something
(oh and freaking heck give them rolled up whips not elongated ones!)

the new ones are EXALTED seekers, so it kinda makes sense for the old ones to be smaller. Still doesn't excuse the crazy difference in dynamism between the two. Slaanesh should be the one with lithe and agile demons

Yeah but if you look at the old Diaz deamonettes and at the artwork of seeker riders you can see that seekers are big compared to their riders. The riders perch atop; the current plastic models the riders are heavily straddled over them. The mortal ones are almost comical.

Meanwhile the Exalted have a much better set of proportions. With a larger mount body you've also room to have the rider dancing/perched on the back rather than straddling.

Part of it is indeed that the older kit is more simple in pose (likely a result of them wanting easy swapping of arms between all the kits); but another is just the relative sizes of mount and rider. New kits from GW I think will be a very long way off, but they'd be very welcome with much more dynamic (if likely fixed) poses and hopefully exalted mounts for all (or at least bigger mounts)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I don't get the beef with current Daemonettes.

my issue with them is that theyre too static and their proportions are too cartoony

Too cartoony is a feature of many chaos kits and models from a few other armies. I think this is partly a hazard of plastic updates to metal sculpts.

 Gert wrote:
Apart from how they go together (I really hate the arms) I don't get the beef with current Daemonettes.

For myself, it isn't that I have a beef with the current kit at all- I don't, it's fine.

I just like the Diaz models better.

I actually like having both in my army- it provides greater variety.

 Overread wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Overread wrote:
My issue is mostly with the seeker riders. The mounts are just too small. You REALLY see it with the mortal seeker riders.

The new Exalted Seekers are sized properly for the riders and I'd love to see them roll out for the deamonettes oneday even if it meant they'd all be upscaled.



Chariots are a cool kit but always always feel out of place in 40K. In Old World/AOS perfect; in 40K they feel like they should have a bunch of bolt-on gun emplacements or something
(oh and freaking heck give them rolled up whips not elongated ones!)

the new ones are EXALTED seekers, so it kinda makes sense for the old ones to be smaller. Still doesn't excuse the crazy difference in dynamism between the two. Slaanesh should be the one with lithe and agile demons

Yeah but if you look at the old Diaz deamonettes and at the artwork of seeker riders you can see that seekers are big compared to their riders. The riders perch atop; the current plastic models the riders are heavily straddled over them. The mortal ones are almost comical.

Meanwhile the Exalted have a much better set of proportions. With a larger mount body you've also room to have the rider dancing/perched on the back rather than straddling.

Part of it is indeed that the older kit is more simple in pose (likely a result of them wanting easy swapping of arms between all the kits); but another is just the relative sizes of mount and rider. New kits from GW I think will be a very long way off, but they'd be very welcome with much more dynamic (if likely fixed) poses and hopefully exalted mounts for all (or at least bigger mounts)

I suspect the issue is that the riders had to scale with the foot daemonettes but the mounts had to fit on a 25x50mm base.

The AoS ‘Exalted’ seekers didn’t have the latter limitation so could be bigger.

That and GW can make bigger moulds now and bigger plastic models. Without having to rely on thousands of parts to get there. Granted Exalted Seekers aren't as big as dragons, but its certainly a display of the evolution of GW's capacity to invest and so forth between the two ranges of models.

 Overread wrote:
.


I think excess has always been a part of Slaanesh, but in the past it was always presented in a very "excess brings pleasure". I think also because GW likely wanted to keep fatter models to Nurgle; smarter to Tzeentch and more fighty to Khorne. Which I think made a lot of sense when all 4 were in one army originally.

With them separated fully in AoS and kind of heading that way in 40K, I think it opens up for allowing gluttons and other excesses to appear with slaanesh styles and themes because now you're not stepping on Nurgle's design toes. It also creates loads of gaps in the model lineup for tactical slots and functions that previously were handled by another god's unit.

I don't personally agree with this- if you go back to 2nd and 3rd edition Slaaneshi units, they were primarily violent, military expressions of excess and perfection. This makes sense, for a wargame. But Slaaneshi lords and Marines being focussed on martial prowess and and the ectasy of murder didn't lead to stepping on the toes of Khorne and the model ranges were distinct. For a start, Khornate aesthetics have tended towards brutality and Slaaneshi aesthetics towards elegance.

Ultimately, it was a choice to take Slaaneshi daemons and many of their fiction depictions along the route of being succubi over other forms of excess. I don't think it was a wrong choice per se, but certainly not the only choice as demonstrated by GW themselves in their other Slaaneshi model lines.

The only true Daemonettes have giant crab hands.

Anyone? No?

I think Noise Marines kind of struggle in the modern day because "Heavy Metal" just doesn't seem that subversive. Not entirely sure it was in the 1980s either, but there were potentially more connotations in a way that there isn't so much today. But maybe that's a reflection of my own (or societies) hedonism.