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Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.
These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.
What they did say (emphasis added)
Those familiar with their current rules will recognise the Assigned Agents army rule, which allows a certain number of units from the book to be added to other IMPERIUM armies. This roster has been expanded to help fill out your Ordo Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus presence, with Deathwatch Kill Teams joining the RETINUE units.
The new Codex also features Watch Masters, Corvus Blackstars, and Watch Captain Artemis (returning to the range after an absence), so you can include a full Deathwatch contingent in any IMPERIUM army, complete with leaders, squads, and transports. Those with full Deathwatch Space Marine armies needn’t worry – they can add the Deathwatch-specific units to a Space Marine army of black-clad units like Intercessors and Terminators, melding the strong foundations and Detachments of Codex: Space Marines with themed specialists from Codex: Imperial Agents.
That is Deathwatch Characters (Watch Masters and Watch Captain Artemis), Retinue (Deathwatch Kill Teams), and Dedicated Transports (At least the Corvus Blackstar). This makes me pretty sure there will not be a Codex: Deathwatch in 10th Edition. Every other unit in Index Deathwatch is probably a victim of NMNR.
Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.
I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?
You could upgrade ISTs to Arbites by replacing their hellgun and targeter with a shotgun, but that explicitly made them Arbites and the book said OH ‘often’ called upon them.
Codex: Witch Hunters wrote:The Ordo Hereticus often call upon the Adeptus Arbites to aid them in their work, using them to round up known criminals and screen them for signs of deeper corruption. Hence Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads may be used to represent squads of the Adeptus Arbites by replacing each trooper’s hellgun and targeter with a shotgun at no extra cost. All other options are unchanged.
So it's like I said. You didn't actually take Arbites, they just gave you a fluffy bit.
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Then what is the point?!
If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!
Units that work well at 2000 points don't necessarily work as well at 1000 points, like several varieties of Imperial/Chaos Knights. Even a Land Raider might feel out of place in a 1000-point game, since it and its occupants will likely run in the neighborhood of 500 points.
Things not working at different points isn't the same as purposely building things that won't work outside of, say, Combat Patrol or Kill Team.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/25 22:41:26
Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.
I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?
You could upgrade ISTs to Arbites by replacing their hellgun and targeter with a shotgun, but that explicitly made them Arbites and the book said OH ‘often’ called upon them.
Codex: Witch Hunters wrote:The Ordo Hereticus often call upon the Adeptus Arbites to aid them in their work, using them to round up known criminals and screen them for signs of deeper corruption. Hence Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads may be used to represent squads of the Adeptus Arbites by replacing each trooper’s hellgun and targeter with a shotgun at no extra cost. All other options are unchanged.
So it's like I said. You didn't actually take Arbites, they just gave you a fluffy bit.
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Then what is the point?!
If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!
Units that work well at 2000 points don't necessarily work as well at 1000 points, like several varieties of Imperial/Chaos Knights. Even a Land Raider might feel out of place in a 1000-point game, since it and its occupants will likely run in the neighborhood of 500 points.
Things not working at different points isn't the same as purposely building things that won't work outside of, say, Combat Patrol or Kill Team.
No, you used the rules of IST with shotguns to represent Arbites, but lore wise they were explicitly Arbites (there wasn’t an option for shotguns outside the ‘representing Arbites’ boxout).
Model wise there were no models for ISTs with shotguns. You had to use the old Adeptus Arbites models or Necromunda Enforcers (or convert something else from scratch).
Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
Gert wrote: Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
You're joking, right?
First off: I wanted clarification on whether or not my memory was correct. It seems that yes, my memory was correct in that it allowed for you to use Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with a specific loadout to represent a unit that did not exist in any army at the time.
Second: I was asked where I would place Arbites. Even with this supposed special tie to the Ordo Hereticus, I'd still put them into Guard. We have a whole category for "Auxilia" where Arbites and PDF could be placed.
Auxiliaries is a nice way of saying "Abhumans" because as you will notice, that's what's in that category, Ogryns and Ratlings (and sanctioned Beastmen technically).
They're part of the Militarum structure, just not Guardsmen.
The Arbites (as well as the Navy and Rogue Traders) are not part of the Militarum, and it wouldn't make sense to be in that Codex.
Gert wrote: Auxiliaries is a nice way of saying "Abhumans" because as you will notice, that's what's in that category, Ogryns and Ratlings (and sanctioned Beastmen technically).
They're part of the Militarum structure, just not Guardsmen.
Just like:
-Commissars
-Scions
-Enginseers
-Ministorum Priests
-Psykers
Important to note that I didn't say those things were part of the Guard. I simply suggested that they could be used as Auxilia, since it's basically an unused concept at this juncture. There's the legacy items in the form of the abhumans, but there's nothing stopping the concept being expanded to other items.
Also, there's a difference between the "Auxilia" and "Auxiliaries". Auxilia's a term that gets used for Guard forces operating outside of their regiments. Things like the Ultramar Auxilia or the Auric Auxilia for example.
The Arbites (as well as the Navy and Rogue Traders) are not part of the Militarum, and it wouldn't make sense to be in that Codex.
Again, nowhere have I suggested that these things are part of the Militarum. Just that given the concepts constantly thrown at us about these things being jammed into the game, they fit better into Guard since they also keep blathering about how these forces constantly work with the Guard.
if they're part of the guard codex, then they can't be added to other lists. you're restricting them which goes against the lore. it's just a bad argument, dude
Gert wrote: Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
Gert wrote: Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
You're joking, right?
I think the proper term is trolling.
I'm new to forums, so I've been assuming that it's impolite to point that out about someone, even when it's obvious
Kanluwen wrote: Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.
Then where would you put them?
Nowhere. I don't really see how any of these aren't just variations of units already available in the IG Index.
That actually is something that I think would really help the game going forward. Many units and armies that are just tiny varieties of each other can easily be put under a single profile and into a single book. The issue with that is that it would massively hit sales if there weren't a dozen Marine armies that all basically are the same thing with tiny variations and many units that essentially serve the same purpose and could easily just be an equipment upgrade or the like.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Kanluwen wrote: Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.
Then where would you put them?
Nowhere. I don't really see how any of these aren't just variations of units already available in the IG Index.
That actually is something that I think would really help the game going forward. Many units and armies that are just tiny varieties of each other can easily be put under a single profile and into a single book. The issue with that is that it would massively hit sales if there weren't a dozen Marine armies that all basically are the same thing with tiny variations and many units that essentially serve the same purpose and could easily just be an equipment upgrade or the like.
Even for SM I'm not sure if that's true. Is the cost of producing all these random extra units like Inner Circle Companions actually worth that much to GW compared to just using the more generic Bladeguard? It's especially questionable when the rules for those units are bad, which leads to lower sales. SM have a lot of problems with this kind of unit overlap. So many "unique" units are really just a generic unit with one or two special rules added, or could be represented in that way. Inner Circle Companions are basically Bladeguard, so why not just make DA Bladeguard units ICC by using the base unit rules with some minor modifications. The same applies to things like Death Company, which are fundamentally veterans with an ability swap and different weapon options. I think there are much more elegant ways GW could handle these kind of units that would still retain their flavour but also streamline the rules a little.
When it comes to things like Arbites, I really don't think GW are making enough profit on these things to not at least consider whether they really need to exist in 40k as a distinct unit with its own rules. Maybe they are, but that doesn't change my opinion on how these things should be handled from a gameplay perspective.
GW used to provide upgrade sprues for various SM chapters, allowing you to take any of the regular SM units and add some chapter-specific stuff to make them look distinct even while using the same rules as everyone else. It worked well in terms of giving armies characterful looks relatively cheaply without leading to loads of rules bloat and overlapping unit roles.
Codex: Witch hunters was from the same edition as the last Arbites army list. They were phasing that list out but I don't think it was actually officially discontinued at that point (I think this happened in a FAQ somewhere).
Gert wrote: Auxiliaries is a nice way of saying "Abhumans" because as you will notice, that's what's in that category, Ogryns and Ratlings (and sanctioned Beastmen technically).
They're part of the Militarum structure, just not Guardsmen.
Just like:
-Commissars
-Scions
-Enginseers
-Ministorum Priests
-Psykers
Important to note that I didn't say those things were part of the Guard. I simply suggested that they could be used as Auxilia, since it's basically an unused concept at this juncture. There's the legacy items in the form of the abhumans, but there's nothing stopping the concept being expanded to other items.
Also, there's a difference between the "Auxilia" and "Auxiliaries". Auxilia's a term that gets used for Guard forces operating outside of their regiments. Things like the Ultramar Auxilia or the Auric Auxilia for example.
The Arbites (as well as the Navy and Rogue Traders) are not part of the Militarum, and it wouldn't make sense to be in that Codex.
Again, nowhere have I suggested that these things are part of the Militarum. Just that given the concepts constantly thrown at us about these things being jammed into the game, they fit better into Guard since they also keep blathering about how these forces constantly work with the Guard.
The Ultramar Auxilia is a PDF (which is functionally an Ultramarines Chapter serf outfit) and the Auric Auxilia are a Chapter serf unit for the Imperial Fists that has been recruiting from the Guard since the Great Rift. They are a different use of the term Auxilia to actual Imperial Guard Auxilia. Here they are considered auxiliary to Space Marines, not to Guardsmen.
I can see Navy units being rolled into the Guard book. They are much more likely to be found fighting in similar environments, Naval infantry is analogous to a specialised Guard force, and both come under the same command structure of the Departmento Munitorum. It would be very nice to see a Ratings boarding party unit to support the elite armsmen, especially as conscripts have been deleted, but ho hum. All of those units mentioned above also have defined structures for how they interact with or are assigned to the Guard. For example, whilst Scions are technically separate, they have to obey orders from a senior Guard officer. Below the high command level, the Navy is a little separate as a parallel arm, but I can see temporary arrangements being common at lower levels.
Lorewise Arbites are separate though, and do make more sense in an Agents book or as their own force. They only share similarities to the Guard in the way they are human infantry. Arbites have a separate command structure and their own interstellar transportation. They work closely with the Inquisition on many cases.
This would be less of an issue if the proxy options hadn't been closed down. When you could take Guard units with carapace armour and shotguns you could just run Arbites and Armsmen as these.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/26 08:57:18
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Even for SM I'm not sure if that's true. Is the cost of producing all these random extra units like Inner Circle Companions actually worth that much to GW compared to just using the more generic Bladeguard? It's especially questionable when the rules for those units are bad, which leads to lower sales. SM have a lot of problems with this kind of unit overlap.
A poster in a dofferwnt thread makes a convincing outline on why financially GW makes such a proliferation of new boxes.
GW literally pays off those molds in the preorders. Molds aren't cheap, but GW makes a lot of money because their market share is basically uncontested.
This way you can't magnetize them. I guarantee some bean counter realized that the extra $45k for three more molds (each dread is three sprues, that doesn't mean three molds, but I am assuming the worst) was a drop in the bucket compared to forcing people to buy three models for each dread type - instead of using 5$ of magnets to do whatever combo you want like you can on a rhino. GW takes 55% of retail, and makes about $37 ($80*.55 - $6 sprues and - $1 for the packaging) so they only have to sell about 1200 boxes to make that mold cost back (preorders are higher then that guaranteed since limited boxes run about 2000 units and are gone in less then 5 minutes).
That $45k cost is nothing in the scope of their revenue of ~$610,800,000 (~470,800,000 pounds) with their Net Profit (pure cash after absolutely everything taken out including wages, upgrades to buildings/machinery, taxes, materials and whatever) of ~$201,700,000 (~155,500,000 pounds) in 2023.
This tactic of spending a drop of money on more molds to make more specific sprues (to get you to buy more models) is also why:
The obnoxious bs with killing tac squads in favor of several, single pose/loadout easy builds (can't proxy a squad if they are actually different models/sheets vs just a weapon swap - congratulations, you now need to purchase four separate squads of infantry to even play those same loadouts causally).
The two walker bug things in the necron codex are not the same size (No proxy/magnets for you).
Various Primaris tanks are not the same size. You have to buy impulsors and repulsers to field them both despite the fact the only real difference is the repulser is bigger (No proxy/magnets for you).
Primaris are separate sheets from firstborn instead of a "quiet" upscale/updetail to existing sheets (Makes people replace some units up to whole armies to keep playing). The excuse "oh just use the squatted firstborn as the Primaris sheets" is pandering bs, they know you can't do that in practice, even in casual play, let alone if you want to go to some event.
Money is the only thing GW gives a flying feth about, and it's important to remember that so we can call them out for their predatory behaviors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and to be clear, that $37 dollars is only if you buy from a third party (FLGS, Amazon). Buying directly from the site is $73 of revenue.....
A customer with six bladeguard already is more likely to buy a box of Inner Circle than a third box of bladeguard. GW knows they'll do enough volume to cover the fixed cost of the Companions, and they'll move more total units when they make both Companions and bladeguard than they will with just bladeguard.
It's not good for you if you want to play the main 40k game. It's definitely a good business decision though.
Even for SM I'm not sure if that's true. Is the cost of producing all these random extra units like Inner Circle Companions actually worth that much to GW compared to just using the more generic Bladeguard? It's especially questionable when the rules for those units are bad, which leads to lower sales. SM have a lot of problems with this kind of unit overlap.
Yes it is, otherwise a) GW wouldn't do it, and b) GW wouldn't be more successful than the next five table top gaming companies combined.
You do understand that there are at least as many players who want and expansive sandbox of a game and the catalogue of models required to do that as there are that merely want a nice, tight, balanced competitive game, right?
Because again, if that were not true, a) GW would alter their policies b) GW would be less successful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/26 11:47:42
StudentOfEtherium wrote: cut land raiders, and terminators while we're at it. oh, and any big model that's more than 300ish points, since those are really unwieldy in small games. greater demons, knights, big vehicles. oh, and IG tanks, since they're going to feel out of place without all that other big stuff. custodes are really awkward at low point games, so they need to be cut, too
we can really scale down the scope of the game if we keep this up!
Not going to lie, I know you're being hyperbolic to raise a point, but there is a faction of players who do feel that certain large units, we'll call them Superheavies, do not, and should not, exist in table top 40k. Primarchs, Angels and demons, and Baneblades/like. Thats it.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: cut land raiders, and terminators while we're at it. oh, and any big model that's more than 300ish points, since those are really unwieldy in small games. greater demons, knights, big vehicles. oh, and IG tanks, since they're going to feel out of place without all that other big stuff. custodes are really awkward at low point games, so they need to be cut, too
we can really scale down the scope of the game if we keep this up!
Not going to lie, I know you're being hyperbolic to raise a point, but there is a faction of players who do feel that certain large units, we'll call them Superheavies, do not, and should not, exist in table top 40k. Primarchs, Angels and demons, and Baneblades/like. Thats it.
Its never going to happen - but I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world.
I mean if you have a cap of 300~ points (with maybe a couple of borderline essentials) - there's not much outside it. 3 of the 4 Greater Daemons are in. Belakor would need to be modestly tuned down (or kept as an exception). Most Tanks I think would be in. It would really just be Knights, Daemon Primarchs and Superheavies. Which could still be in the game - their rules would just have to be toned down from 400-500 points to 300.
But as said, its not going to happen.
I do think though you have an issue at the moment with say factions like Imperial Agents. You've got a range of cool (imo) units... equipped mostly with lasguns, bolters and shotguns. Which... basically don't do anything with better than T4 and a 4+ save. Which is an ever growing percentage of 40k's food chain. If someone were to run against you with mass Kroot, Cultists, Termagants etc then I think you could have a fun game. If they don't? Well, a lot of your units are just going to have to hope to die slowly on objectives.
The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
GW keep making these big centre piece models - presumably because they sell. So they aren't going to stop having rules that encourage people (or at least don't stop people) from buying them.
Its a bit like the 3 year edition/codex cycle. Its mainly a marketing strategy. Based on GW's results and share price, it works, and they aren't going to stop unless that changes.
We may perhaps get a Combat Patrol navy themed, similar to the old Boarding Patrol, following the steps of Adepta Sororitas one.
VanTarrion's Voidsmen has been quietly added to the app - two ten man breacher units (given the 'patrol squads' rule), a ten man voidsman unit and a rogue trader retinue.
That doesn't mean it'll appear as a box set, of course.
We may perhaps get a Combat Patrol navy themed, similar to the old Boarding Patrol, following the steps of Adepta Sororitas one.
VanTarrion's Voidsmen has been quietly added to the app - two ten man breacher units (given the 'patrol squads' rule), a ten man voidsman unit and a rogue trader retinue.
That doesn't mean it'll appear as a box set, of course.
The voidsmen are a weird unit - they may take up to ten figures, but the box cones with 5 monopose models and a dog. And according to my app, just adding the dog increases the unit's cost from 50 to 100 :/
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
So screw Guard and Daemons, I guess?
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
So screw Guard and Daemons, I guess?
It's Fezzik, you don't need to take any of their suggestions seriously.
I wouldn't mind heavily restricting or removing superheavies, flyers and Primarchs as I think they present problems that make the game less engaging or just lead to really odd rules compromises. There's no way you can reduce that down to the level of all tanks (and presumably monsters). I'd also argue it's another good reason to reintroduce some form of Force Organisation Chart to try to push armies away from skew.
Something like you can’d spend more then 50% of your points on a single unit/model would curb some of the worst outliers in small games.
I would not mind a return to the days where a LR or monolith was the largest thing you were likely to see. But I acknowledge that the cat’s kinda out of the bag on that one. Giant army faction centerpieces are fun to own/paint, but they should be reserved for big games, not everday use. IMHO. But I’m an old grognard like that.
I just picked up a copy of Combat Arena: Lair of the Beast at Barnes and Nobles bookstore for $35. It includes all the Blackstone Fortesss minis plus an Ambull, but I'm only really interested in the Rogue Trader, Navigator, Priest, and Missionary.
The Missionary looks to be a part of Hereticus and the Priest in Malleus. They're both considered Ministorum Priests in their totally different datasheets in Sisters and Guard though. Have any box contents listed what is what exactly?
Nightlord1987 wrote: I just picked up a copy of Combat Arena: Lair of the Beast at Barnes and Nobles bookstore for $35. It includes all the Blackstone Fortesss minis plus an Ambull, but I'm only really interested in the Rogue Trader, Navigator, Priest, and Missionary.
The Missionary looks to be a part of Hereticus and the Priest in Malleus. They're both considered Ministorum Priests in their totally different datasheets in Sisters and Guard though. Have any box contents listed what is what exactly?
By their BSF and Combat Arena model names:
Pious Vorne has the Zealot's Vindicator and is the default weapon for the Adepta Sorotitas Mininstorum Priest.
Thaddus the Purifier has the Holy Pistol and Power Weapon and is the alternate weapon option for Adepta Sorotitas Mininstorum Priest and default weapon option for Index Astra Militarum Mininstorum Priest.
Other weapon options for Index Astra Militarum Mininstorum Priest are old metal/resin models.
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