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Yeah. Some heroes have to go forwards to be useful.

I mean, the Lone Op thing is cool, but the gun takes out attached heroes just fine as well. He's definitely a powerful model who got a nice buff, just not THAT nice a buff.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility

Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.

He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility

Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.

He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.

I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.

Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility

Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.

He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.

I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.

Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lone Ops are single models, hence the name.

 PenitentJake wrote:

I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.

Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, you only see the models you see, so if the character is hiding behind a wall, you don't get to precision it (for both shooting AND melee).

You're probably getting confused with the fact that you can still assign damage to models that arent visible to the attacking unit.

 LunarSol wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility

Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.

He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.

I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.

Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lone Ops are single models, hence the name.

Yeah, it's just the way Vlad said "trailing behind the unit" that made me think I was talking about an attached leader in the quote I was responding to- I know that the discussion had included the Lone Operative stuff earlier in the conversation, I just though Vlad might have switched gears given what he wrote. If Vlad is referencing a Lone Operative hiding near a unit so that the operative can target a nearby unit with an aura ability, that may be possible, but some aura abilities require the affected unit to be visible to the model producing the aura.

In some cases, it will be possible to hide an Operative from the Assassin in such a way that the operative can still see a member of the unit it wishes to affect, but that's still not as simple as "Hide the character but don't worry about the unit," and hence it is still appropriate to say that the Assassin forces an opponent to think more carefully about positioning.

 PenitentJake wrote:

In some cases, it will be possible to hide an Operative from the Assassin in such a way that the operative can still see a member of the unit it wishes to affect, but that's still not as simple as "Hide the character but don't worry about the unit," and hence it is still appropriate to say that the Assassin forces an opponent to think more carefully about positioning.

as i said, it still is very trivial to hide a character from a sniper with GW's recommended terrain layouts. The vindicare still has *some* amount of impact, but it is very minimal in most cases.

As I wait for my book to reach India I have a question or two.

Can Arbites ride in an Imperial Rhino? How about an immolator?

What happened to Crusaders and Bondage Ninjas? This seems the natural place for them but I don't see them on the point sheet.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
As I wait for my book to reach India I have a question or two.

Can Arbites ride in an Imperial Rhino? How about an immolator?

What happened to Crusaders and Bondage Ninjas? This seems the natural place for them but I don't see them on the point sheet.

Right now a rhino can ride in a rhino even

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
As I wait for my book to reach India I have a question or two.

Can Arbites ride in an Imperial Rhino? How about an immolator?

What happened to Crusaders and Bondage Ninjas? This seems the natural place for them but I don't see them on the point sheet.

Right now a rhino can ride in a rhino even

Can I put my bondage ninjas in a Blackstar which is then riding in a rhino?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
As I wait for my book to reach India I have a question or two.

Can Arbites ride in an Imperial Rhino? How about an immolator?

What happened to Crusaders and Bondage Ninjas? This seems the natural place for them but I don't see them on the point sheet.

Right now a rhino can ride in a rhino even

Can I put my bondage ninjas in a Blackstar which is then riding in a rhino?

Only Deathwatch can ride in the Blackstar. Same for the Immolator and Sisters (which has its own weird name thing going on). The Chimera is comically limited to Inquisitorial Agents. The Rhino on the other hand, can take ANYTHING.

Cheers!

And I guess I can assume crusaders and death cult are out?

What about Jokero and Deamon Hosts?

All four of those have disappeared. Probably NMNR, or actually NPMNR.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Cheers!

And I guess I can assume crusaders and death cult are out?

What about Jokero and Deamon Hosts?

Go to downloads on Warcom and scroll down to legends. The top four entries are all recent- Agents now includes Jokaero and Daemonhost, as well as all the missing DW Primaris KTS AND the actual Proteus KT (as the thing that they now officially call a KT isn't actually a KT, but rather a unit of DW Vets). The Sisters Legends now includes DCA's and Crusaders. Avaline's data card is there as well, and the last doc in the top row is the Legends Munitorum.

Do Acolytes still only get the pistols in their rules?

 Gert wrote:
Do Acolytes still only get the pistols in their rules?

Which Acolytes? They changed the name of a bunch of things unfortunately.

Accolytes stopped being a unit in 8th, so I assume you're referring to the Accolytes in the Inquisitorial Henchman unit (which I think has been renamed Inquisitorial Agents, which was a poor and confusing choice given the faction name).

That card will appear in the dex, which some people will have tomorrow (I won't be able to pick mine up until Monday or Tuesday).

But you also say "still" which is weird, because the index entry for all Acolytes in the Hench unit have acolyte firearms (pistol) and acolyte melee weapons, and that one acolyte can have a plasma pistol and another can have an eviscerator.

I know some units from the dex leaked, and I forget if they changed it, but unless you've heard otherwise, I'd assume they hadn't.

I did mean the Henchmen (Agents?), still in my brain as Acolytes my bad.

I was hoping that the "Acolyte Weapons" weren't going to just be 12" range but that would have been hoping for too much. Would it have killed GW to give one model a Lasgun and maybe they could be semi useful at range?

Even better, they're now 1 wound for no decernable reason!

Yeah, just like you used to be able to cultists up as melee or range, the Acolytes in a Hench/ Inquisitorial Agents unit should have the option for range vs CC and pistol.

As for the wound change, I'm hoping for eratta on that. It is going to be nice to have the book in hand.

I just picked up the codex and it is as bad as people have said. It really should have been a PDF.

They managed to make a non-competitive army and make them worse.

They took the time out of their day to remove the deathwatch codex from their website BUT still have the space marine options on their webpage for the deathwatch as well as kill team Cassius..Which are all unusable.

This codex is designed to do just one thing....sell more of the kill team models that GW has in stock.

Just ridiculous.

 ender502 wrote:
This codex is designed to do just one thing....sell more of the kill team models that GW has in stock.

I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.

But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?

Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.

But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?

Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.

It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".

And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.

I got the Codex yesterday. I've been an Inquisition player for decades, and this is the worst treatment they've ever recieved. It's bonkers-no way to pick an Ordo for your vanilla inquisitor and very few options for them.
It's really disappointing.

 ender502 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.

But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?

Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.

It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".

And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.

every codex GW has ever released has been a "cash grab". they're a miniatures company that also makes rules as an incentive to buy their models. and that's been the case for four decades now. the first edition of fantasy was made to sell all the existing fantasy models they had sitting around. are you going to call that a cash grab, too? what makes one of these commendable, and the other condemnable?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
This codex is designed to do just one thing....sell more of the kill team models that GW has in stock.

I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.

But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?

Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.

There is selling models and there is GW telling people "Buy all those cool new things for HH, which you can use in w40k too.", to them move all that stuff to legends in less then half a year. Also GW did in the past and in this edition buff certain units just to nerf/kill them in a few months. Sniper scouts at start of 10th ed were one such unit for example. Right now the best way to play SCE in AoS is to use stuff which is going to end up in legends in a short time. BA DC was a great unit, carrying the whole faction. You can run 10 DC with power fists and fusions anymore. And GW knowing their books in advance could have writen the index accordingly. For WS one of their top builds right now, and the only functional way to counts as WS, is running storm lance with TWC. Do you think that with the GW designing everything primaris, TWC are going to stay the corner stone of the faction?
Again nothing wrong with selling more stuff, the more money they have the higher chance they will write more rules and more books for players. But if someone sold me a Nobull Black Gum Trainer and it fell apart in 1-2 months I would be asking for return of money. GW has no problem with releasing codex 1-2 months before edition end, make people tech in to specific units they know they are going to remove etc. And they have this odd divides where WFB armies can't be in AoS and AoS armies can't be in WFB, same with FW and w40k. Everything has to be separate and you are going to buy a separate army for everything. They will even mess up base sizes just so you don't think doing a counts as.

It’s not a terrible book but one of so many missed opportunities. It just feels half done and more of a case of a placeholder for all the lost toys.
I think Ordo Malleus is the worst one as there is very little in there that feels like it belongs outside of the Grey Knights.
Ordo Xenos needs Legends to work, but feels more of a true Deathwatch force than what was forced before (basically just another space marine chapter)
Hereticus has quite a few fails, giving a new rule to Ignore Cover in an army that lore wise wants lots of flamers. Also, why exclude arco flagellants and Penitent Engines?
As much as I hate the NMNR approach by GW, it makes no sense to omit units that have boxes!!

Things that should have been included:
Deathwatch Terminator squad with new loadout restrictions (for NMNR)
Deathwatch Captain (regular and Terminator)
Deathwatch Land Raider
Deathwatch Razorback
Arco Flagellants
Penitent Engines
Kasrkin (with a blurb that they are typically called Inquisitorial stormtroopers)

I’m sure there’s more

Anyway, I plan to use the book as a base and just expand options. Played a quick game yesterday (Xenos) that had Legends terms, vanvets with a jump captain plus current options. Worked fine, and I recommend that you allow additional assets (this book is not one for tournament play)

grahamdbailey wrote:
It's bonkers-no way to pick an Ordo for your vanilla inquisitor and very few options for them.
It's really disappointing.

This one was such low hanging fruit that I'm really surprised they missed it. I'm hoping it gets fixed with an errata. It's aclear case of a rules writer never playing an actual game with the rules they have written.

For my part though, I can't say it's worse than 8th and especially Index. In 8th you could field an Agents detachment, but had no battleline units, which crippled your detachment choice, and in 8th that was a big deal. In the beginning of 9th, you could still take an Agents detachment, and some of the detachment/ CP rules were fixed enough that it was okay; the biggest weakness there was a) a lack of Crusade content throughout and b) by the end of the ed, they torpedoed Agent detachments (though they did slightly improve the Assigned Agents rule). This was the game state that they rode into 10th ed.

Part of the issue here is that we've got compounded issues; doing the Deathwatch dirty is an issue that's separate in some ways from how good this dex is or isn't. If Deathwatch got a dex of their own that had all the old content in it, there would be fewer complaints about the Agents dex.

 ender502 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.

But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?

Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.

It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".

And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.

OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.

So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.