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I know BFG had a paragraph stating "The laws governing the ownership and operating of sub-stellar ships are the concern of the Imperial Commander of each system. The Imperial authorities take no great interest in what happens on this, galactically-speaking, tiny level."

But does this mean that intra and inter system commerce pay their levies to the 'local' authorities who in turn pay a portion forward to 'central' authority? Or is there a 'central' govt office where those fees are paid directly to?

For example, if a imperial merchant vessel from planet #3423 pays a visit to planet #23244, who do they pay their fees to? if any at all?

Bloody good question.

On a planetary scale, taxes must exist to pay for infrastructure. Not just the PDF, Local ‘Arbites’ and other security stuff, but maintenance, payment of peons (likely in a local scrip than Proper Imperial Currency). And when you consider the scale of that? That’s a lot of running costs.

But, it has to be necessarily tempered against the necessity of imports.

Where my knowledge starts to fall down is how that works on Tithed Goods entering the system. For instance, an Agri-World outside of your system will only have a percentage of its harvest paid as tithe, and so it’s free to sell its excess as its Governor (planetary or system) sees fit. And from that income, that planet sustains itself, buying in the stuff it doesn’t produce. Yet it can’t set its prices too high, as even in the far future food is inherently perishable, and there will be some form of competition.

And so we see the delicate web start to emerge. Very, very few planets within The Imperium are entirely self-sustaining. And by no means does every Imperial system have sufficient variety of worlds to be self sufficient. Everyone has something the next world or system will need, and so trade is a must. But like real world trade? You can absolutely price yourself out of the market.

Governors would also face additional concerns world leaders don’t. Specifically, that if it can’t properly recruit and maintain its own PDF and infrastructure, the world suffers, and you might be replaced.

So….who sets taxes, duties, revenue and that? Most likely the Governor, with expertise, knowledge and advice coming from local Administratum staff. And they can’t get too greedy, because they don’t exist in a vacuum.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bloody good question.

On a planetary scale, taxes must exist to pay for infrastructure. Not just the PDF, Local ‘Arbites’ and other security stuff, but maintenance, payment of peons (likely in a local scrip than Proper Imperial Currency). And when you consider the scale of that? That’s a lot of running costs.

But, it has to be necessarily tempered against the necessity of imports.

Where my knowledge starts to fall down is how that works on Tithed Goods entering the system. For instance, an Agri-World outside of your system will only have a percentage of its harvest paid as tithe, and so it’s free to sell its excess as its Governor (planetary or system) sees fit. And from that income, that planet sustains itself, buying in the stuff it doesn’t produce. Yet it can’t set its prices too high, as even in the far future food is inherently perishable, and there will be some form of competition.

And so we see the delicate web start to emerge. Very, very few planets within The Imperium are entirely self-sustaining. And by no means does every Imperial system have sufficient variety of worlds to be self sufficient. Everyone has something the next world or system will need, and so trade is a must. But like real world trade? You can absolutely price yourself out of the market.

Governors would also face additional concerns world leaders don’t. Specifically, that if it can’t properly recruit and maintain its own PDF and infrastructure, the world suffers, and you might be replaced.

So….who sets taxes, duties, revenue and that? Most likely the Governor, with expertise, knowledge and advice coming from local Administratum staff. And they can’t get too greedy, because they don’t exist in a vacuum.

Good point, i do remember in the 2nd Edition Necromunda Rulebook it states "Helmawr's main obligation to the Imperium is to provide a tithe which takes the form of a percentage of all the goods Necromunda produces. As the entire production capacity of the world is given over to providing manufactured goods for the never-ending demands of Mankind, the tithe is taken as a straight discount on the revenue earned."

So perhaps, of the % that gets exported, when it reaches a 'foreign' market, that particular local govt charges their own fees? and the IoM, of course, takes a cut from that presumably.

I think the answer is "it depends"

The Imperium is feudal in its operations at least at the medium scale, so it really comes down to what the local authorities are doing/want to do. It also will very much depends on who is shipping the goods that are potentially being taxed/tarriffed.

The power of individual governors will also vary from system to system. Some are ruled with an iron fist with the governor having total authority, others might be a mere figurehead installed by a council of powerful nobles/merchants/etc... Some planets may be the property of a Rogue Trader and thus somewhat outside normal Imperial power structures.

At the scale of interplanetary trade, money is also going to operate strangely. Given that the Imperium doesn't actually seem to have a standardized currency, other than Tithe credits which are described in the munitorum manuel as a means for requisitioning supplies from local authorities(basically Tax credit slips). Instead it seems like currencies are more localized, either sector/subsector at the largest or planetary at the smallest. The Tithe is collected in goods not in coin as a result for the most part. Be it whatever resources the planet makes or just in warm bodies or a mixture of the two.

Feudal relationships could be non-monetary and take the form of mutual obligations and duties. Many people in the medieval era did not deal with money at all and dealt in goods and favors.

So an agri-world might provide X tons of food to a hive world in return for Y tons of mechanical parts to keep their farming equipment operational and this arrangement is in a contract lasting centuries or longer. The workers, in serf-like fashion, exist in a subsistence existence where they get their food, work clothes, and bed provided by their feudal overlord in return for their work.

The functionaries doing the paperwork of administration on all these worlds can be just as demonetized. The life of Fabius Guelphrain before he became a Remembrancer in the Indomitus Crusade is an example. He lived in government housing and ate at a government refectory. On special occasions he and his fellow paper shufflers would get a special dinner at a higher class refectory. Pretty much his entire life could have been lived with hardly any contact with money. All necessary goods would have been provided for him, with some occasional perks due to his station rather than because he spent money on them.

Well the single most common example is the tithe, which is administered by the adepts and scribes of the Administratum. I think trade outside the tithe system might be relatively limited. Most of the Imperium's merchant traffic is not independent, but instead part of a merchant marine that is the civilian counterpart of the Imperial Navy. Independent captains and Rogue Traders form a small component of the overall traffic. This could suggest that most interstellar commerce occurs through the tithe system in a feudal manner and therefore is already a tax levied by the empire, or alternatively that worlds can contract out with the merchant navy for non-tithe trade.

Necromunda is probably a good example of how tariffs might work. There is only one starport on Necromunda, controlled by the ruling House. Presumably this is the main source of their wealth and the single port makes controlling material flows easier as any unauthorised vessels can simply be blown out the sky as smugglers.

Iracundus wrote:
Feudal relationships could be non-monetary and take the form of mutual obligations and duties. Many people in the medieval era did not deal with money at all and dealt in goods and favors.

So an agri-world might provide X tons of food to a hive world in return for Y tons of mechanical parts to keep their farming equipment operational and this arrangement is in a contract lasting centuries or longer. The workers, in serf-like fashion, exist in a subsistence existence where they get their food, work clothes, and bed provided by their feudal overlord in return for their work.

The functionaries doing the paperwork of administration on all these worlds can be just as demonetized. The life of Fabius Guelphrain before he became a Remembrancer in the Indomitus Crusade is an example. He lived in government housing and ate at a government refectory. On special occasions he and his fellow paper shufflers would get a special dinner at a higher class refectory. Pretty much his entire life could have been lived with hardly any contact with money. All necessary goods would have been provided for him, with some occasional perks due to his station rather than because he spent money on them.

Very true, but I think that money is widespread on more developed planets. Guard soldiers seem to be paid in credits and seem to be able to spend them on most worlds. Although that doesn't mean that credits are used for interstellar trade if they are used on-world.

So if I’m reading the Necromunda example right? The Imperium actively buys the goods from Necromunda - but, receives a significant discount as the Tithe.

So for instance, rather than “you will provide us with 5,000,000 Lasguns per cycle”, it’s “we’ll buy as much as we want/as much as you’ve got, and you will give us a straight 20% discount on your usual asking price” - though I imagine there’s still a minimum amount of goods stipulated (so at least 2,000,000 of X, but when we come to collect, if you’ve got 4,000,000, we’ll have 4,000,000. But if you’ve only 1,500,000, there’s gonna be trouble, capiche?”

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So if I’m reading the Necromunda example right? The Imperium actively buys the goods from Necromunda - but, receives a significant discount as the Tithe.

So for instance, rather than “you will provide us with 5,000,000 Lasguns per cycle”, it’s “we’ll buy as much as we want/as much as you’ve got, and you will give us a straight 20% discount on your usual asking price” - though I imagine there’s still a minimum amount of goods stipulated (so at least 2,000,000 of X, but when we come to collect, if you’ve got 4,000,000, we’ll have 4,000,000. But if you’ve only 1,500,000, there’s gonna be trouble, capiche?”

I personally don't think any discount would be % based. I suspect it's more like we'll buy whatever you can produce, but 1,000,000 lasguns are free as part of the tithe. A set amount designated as "free" or basically as the tax/tithe

It probably depends on whatever agreement was reached by the Tithe levier when they came around to assess the planet. Probably involves a lot of meetings and negotiation with the planetary authorities when it is initially set up.

So some planets it might be a flat amount, some it might be % based, perhaps with minimums and maximums as well. Along with stipulations regarding back payments if Tithes are missed...

And since only a Terra approved Tithe Levier can change the tithe, planets most likely go centuries or millenia between getting any changes made to the tithe. Which means that many planets will end up overburdened or not burdened at all. Perhaps a once poor world was assessed a very small tithe, but in the centuries that have passed the place has prospered and its tithe is basically nothing. While another world has fallen to the wayside but is still levied exorbitant tithes that it was assessed 2000 years ago and its being stripped bare as a result.

I think there are examples of just that, where because the Imperium is such a bureaucratic nightmare, worlds can be devastated, and then end up in trouble when they can’t meet their tithe.

However, we’ve also seen worlds regraded for the tithe,

Interesting side thought - the tithe effectively arrests planetary development.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think there are examples of just that, where because the Imperium is such a bureaucratic nightmare, worlds can be devastated, and then end up in trouble when they can’t meet their tithe.

However, we’ve also seen worlds regraded for the tithe,

Interesting side thought - the tithe effectively arrests planetary development.

That is my head canon as well. If a world prospers, the Imperium adjusts the tithe upwards. They probably justify it as getting everyone to contribute as how can they let people wallow in decadent luxury when the Imperium is under attack from all sides? (There is the hypocrisy of the noble classes enjoying such luxury).

Back payment of overdue tithes is also my head canon for my personal sector conflict set in Imperium Nihilus. A sector claims to be acting in the name of the now cut off wider Imperium and goes to collect the tithes from another sector that has been cut off by warp storms for many years, including the tithes in arrears. The other sector refuses as the demands would economically devastate the entire secfor, and they accuse the first sector's treasure fleet of overstepping their authority and just trying to enrich themselves. Cue Imperial vs Imperial conflict.

I see the Imperium Nihilus as pockets of Imperial civilization struggling to survive, but also fighting among themselves as they have become effectively independent worlds or pocket empires (even if they all claim to still be part of the same Imperium).

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think there are examples of just that, where because the Imperium is such a bureaucratic nightmare, worlds can be devastated, and then end up in trouble when they can’t meet their tithe.

However, we’ve also seen worlds regraded for the tithe,

Interesting side thought - the tithe effectively arrests planetary development.

That is my head canon as well. If a world prospers, the Imperium adjusts the tithe upwards. They probably justify it as getting everyone to contribute as how can they let people wallow in decadent luxury when the Imperium is under attack from all sides? (There is the hypocrisy of the noble classes enjoying such luxury).

Back payment of overdue tithes is also my head canon for my personal sector conflict set in Imperium Nihilus. A sector claims to be acting in the name of the now cut off wider Imperium and goes to collect the tithes from another sector that has been cut off by warp storms for many years, including the tithes in arrears. The other sector refuses as the demands would economically devastate the entire secfor, and they accuse the first sector's treasure fleet of overstepping their authority and just trying to enrich themselves. Cue Imperial vs Imperial conflict.

I see the Imperium Nihilus as pockets of Imperial civilization struggling to survive, but also fighting among themselves as they have become effectively independent worlds or pocket empires (even if they all claim to still be part of the same Imperium).

It has precedent too, it is pretty much what sparked the Badab War. The neighbouring sector relied on Maelstrom zone resources to produce their tithe requirements. Huron felt the Maelstrom zone needed the resources for their own defence. Treasure fleets are sent by the neighbours, civil war breaks out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Interesting side thought - the tithe effectively arrests planetary development.

Potentially yes, and probably does commonly.

Tithes go somewhere. For the most part they go to other planets to be processed. Military tithes are consumed in war, although you could argue that is a necessary loss to prevent greater losses to enemy action. So in a sense, every world benefits. However, those tithe benefits are not distributed proportionately whereas the Administratum tries to ensure the costs are (as an exception, there are regional increases in tithe costs around major warzones). Some some worlds will have their resources stripped for little gain, others will flourish as a result of those resources. This can change over time due to various factors- Gudrun in the Scarus sector is a good example. It was the sector capital, but lost the position and a lot of trade to Thracian Primaris due to political scandal (massive Chaos cult uncovered in the elite nobility).

It’s more that once an Agri-World, barring natural disaster or enemy action? Always an Agri-World.

Feudal/Medieval Worlds provide a solid source of recruits for the Guard, simply by dint of a more physically active populace.

But whatever it is your world offers The Imperium, that’s the root of your Tithe. And given not meeting your Tithe = Very Bad Things? Your drive to meet said Tithe may well prevent further development. Especially when as covered, in times of war your Tithe can be increased.

So your Agri-World is heavily discouraged from developing its own industrial base. A Feudal/Medieval world just doesn’t get the chance to start introducing more advanced technology, as the cream of your youth are recruited into the Guard. Because whilst you may comfortably meet your regular tithe? You have to assume it’s gonna go up at some point, and I suspect you don’t really get much of a run up at such an increase.

I think most fees are collected locally and passed up chains in diminishing proportion to the planetary level. The planetary governor is directly responsible for the Tithe (whether goods given directly or the governor using the taxes to buy said goods for the Tithe warehouse) but also has every right to ensure the Tithe happens (including seizure by PDF, if needed), limited only by politics/internal unrest and/or private armies). If they don't meet the Tithe, the Imperium takes over the planet and seizes the Tithe in whatever way they can and then replaces the government and squats on them until they show enough progress/fear to be left alone again.

I seem to remember that the tax collectors in antiquity could essentially levy whatever they wanted and often collected above the required amount (enriching themselves and gaining the hate of the locals). They had to play a balance between collecting enough to satisfy the empire (so as not to be killed by the empire) and not collecting so much that the locals rioted/killed them. All while trying to line their pockets. I like this in my head canon as the position that the planetary governor is left in. (And a quick google later... I'm apparently remembering publicani and tax-farming)

Another fun thing worth thinking about is that not all Tithes are collected timely (warp travel issues, unrest, the vast admin, etc...) but are definitely still owed in the Imperium's mind.

This could lead to storage issues due to bulk or perishability.

And... some planets/governors may also be tempted to "borrow" against the tithe to play arbitrage games and hope they can replace the goods before the imperium actually shows up.

The Vostroyan Firstborn are a canon example of what can happen to a world that becomes delinquent.

They refused to raise any regiments during the Horus Heresy, which was their duty in the Tithe, instead focusing their resources on outputting as much war material as possible. After the Heresy, the planet was determined to be in arrears, and this is why 10,000 years later they still have to send every firstborn to serve in the guard.

All in all, they got off light.

Guilliman and his Indomitus group commanders can apparently issue tithe waivers in return for demanding extra resources above and beyond their normal tithe amounts. This is mentioned in the appendix of one of the Dawn of Fire novels, though in typical 40K fashion the waivers might effectively be useless. An example is given of a world literally emptied of all population in order to replenish a fleet, then given a 20 year waiver from all tithes which is useless when there is nobody left to tax. Even in less extreme examples, I recall the appendix saying the value of the extra extracted resources tended to exceed the value of any waiver.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more that once an Agri-World, barring natural disaster or enemy action? Always an Agri-World.

Feudal/Medieval Worlds provide a solid source of recruits for the Guard, simply by dint of a more physically active populace.

But whatever it is your world offers The Imperium, that’s the root of your Tithe. And given not meeting your Tithe = Very Bad Things? Your drive to meet said Tithe may well prevent further development. Especially when as covered, in times of war your Tithe can be increased.

So your Agri-World is heavily discouraged from developing its own industrial base. A Feudal/Medieval world just doesn’t get the chance to start introducing more advanced technology, as the cream of your youth are recruited into the Guard. Because whilst you may comfortably meet your regular tithe? You have to assume it’s gonna go up at some point, and I suspect you don’t really get much of a run up at such an increase.

Ah, I see what you mean. It is definitely hard, if not impossible for a world to change its primary designation once it is pidgeonholed into a certain output. Examples of such are rare in the lore. Well, unless they get downgraded due to some great calamity of course, that happens a lot. I don't think Krieg is considered a hive world anymore, for example.

However worlds definitely do progress along their given trajectory, or at least they did before the compounding disasters of the turn between the 41st and 42nd millenniums lead to ever greater emergency tithes.

We also had the recent Warhammer+ animation showing a collection of Tithe ammunition being handled directly by a group of the Imperial Guard under orders.