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Sledgehammer wrote: Because space marine players have kind of already signed on to space marines...

And?

I “signed on” with Space Marines in 2nd Ed, when I collected and painted a company of Dark Angels.

By your rationale, because at that point there were fewer units available, everything that came after should’ve reduced the appeal, yeah?

So, no Vindicators (not in 40K anyways), Razorbacks limited to Las/Twin Plas, Standard Landraider only (even then you’d have to buy second hand, as it was OOP for most of, if not all of, 2nd Ed). No Sternguard, not Vanguard. No Centurions. Boxnaughts only. Neither of the AA Rhino variants, standard Landspeeder with no weapon options, no Grav Guns, no command squads and so on and so forth.

Are you starting to feel a bit silly yet? Because you’re sounding increasingly silly, and still haven’t offered a good explanation for your claim.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remind me which real-world group Primaris Marines are, if you could. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group Firstborn Marines are.

We need men in the Sororitas, the Calladius assassin temple and the sisters of silence. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group.

The pleas for female space marines are almost always associated with an underlying and unstated opinion that the Sororitas, female guardsmen and any other female faction or character is somehow lesser or not as cool.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
You just dont care about the other opinion and how it affects their ability to interface with their army.

Because it doesn't. If you want your marines to be all manly men, they can still all be manly men if women exist. Nobody is going to come to your house and take away your manly marines.

Look at primaris, we're still having debates almost 10 years later and its now dang near mandatory to run them.

Primaris were always clearly intended to replace the original marines. A large part of the issue with them is precisely that players are increasingly forced to use them unless they stick with their old armies and rules.

That's a completely different issue to female marines, as they wouldn't be replacing the male marines. Adding extra options does not stop you from using the options that are already there.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remind me which real-world group Primaris Marines are, if you could. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group Firstborn Marines are.

We need men in the Sororitas, the Calladius assassin temple and the sisters of silence. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group.

The pleas for female space marines are almost always associated with an underlying and unstated opinion that the Sororitas, female guardsmen and any other female faction or character is somehow lesser or not as cool.

Callidus have men. They're more women than men, but both are recruited to be assassins.
Sororitas have men in their army. Again, you can run a 500 point list without needing to take a single women in your force, and that number used to be larger.
Sisters of Silence are part of the Talons of the Emperor-and they're the significantly smaller part. They have one unit box and one special character.

Marines are the main faction of 40k. They're the most popular, most pushed, most diverse (except in gender) faction. Is that deserved? Not in my opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

I'd also like these questions to be answered too.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

Siiiiiiiigh.

Please. Please read the entire thread.

Callidus does have male operatives. Relatively few in number? Yes. But they are an established thing.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remind me which real-world group Primaris Marines are, if you could. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group Firstborn Marines are.

We need men in the Sororitas, the Calladius assassin temple and the sisters of silence. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group.

The pleas for female space marines are almost always associated with an underlying and unstated opinion that the Sororitas, female guardsmen and any other female faction or character is somehow lesser or not as cool.

There are men in the Calidus temple, one of the earliest depictions of the Calidus temple had the boss of the main character (the Calidus assassin Me’lindi) who was pretty high up in the temple be make.

And while there aren’t male Sororitas themselves, there are a ton of men in the Adeptus Sororitas army.

And neither of those are anywhere near as all dominating to the franchise as Space Marines.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
You just dont care about the other opinion and how it affects their ability to interface with their army.

Because it doesn't. If you want your marines to be all manly men, they can still all be manly men if women exist. Nobody is going to come to your house and take away your manly marines.

Look at primaris, we're still having debates almost 10 years later and its now dang near mandatory to run them.

Primaris were always clearly intended to replace the original marines. A large part of the issue with them is precisely that players are increasingly forced to use them unless they stick with their old armies and rules.

That's a completely different issue to female marines, as they wouldn't be replacing the male marines. Adding extra options does not stop you from using the options that are already there.

And no one is stopping you from making female space marines.

You are taking away the appeal of the lore, theming, and how one views their army in that context, and I think you know that. I don't really play the guard because of units. I play them because of their place in the galaxy and how they navigate that space.

One thought I have reading this is that a lot of it really comes down to space marines (40K as well) and a lot of media aimed at young men is presented as None political.
When it’s all political and rather than talk about it, or show it GW and other companies have spent a while to smooth it all over.

There is storytelling and narrative that can come from space marines as they are now. But that would involve actually committing to there status more, and roughing up there hero status a bunch.
I even think legitimatising chaos would probably go a long way, as they are often just derp and evil. So it’s hard to ever bounce the imperiam imperfections off anything.

This is also why gatekeeping always leads to Stagnation.

Sledgehammer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remind me which real-world group Primaris Marines are, if you could. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group Firstborn Marines are.

We need men in the Sororitas

There already are. I believe JNA mentioned earlier in this thread that one could run a 500point Sororitas list without fielding a single woman.

the Calladius assassin temple

Agreed. All Assassin temples should be all genders. However, I believe that the Callidus Temple *is*, and we just keep getting femme-presenting models for them.

and the sisters of silence.

Sure, agreed.

It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group.

Unfortunately, the thing you're missing is that these are all either:
- Already mixed gender
- Minor minor minor subfactions of larger groups, or incapable of being fielded as an army in their own right.

Not exactly equivalent to Space Marines, who are the face of 40k, and even have their own spin-off game, focused on the actions of Space Marine organisations (Horus Heresy). Try again.

The pleas for female space marines are almost always associated with an underlying and unstated opinion that the Sororitas, female guardsmen and any other female faction or character is somehow lesser or not as cool.

Oh, they're very cool alright. I collect all of them. But lesser? In terms of sales, public perception, marketing, units available, customisation, playstyles, accessibility to new players, resources, and being the literal face of the brand? Yes, they absolutely are.

Now, before you start claiming it: no, the Sisters aren't the same thing as Space Marines; no, those factions are just as cool and badass, but that's not what the problem is; no, those factions existing doesn't make up for the fact that Space Marines are the most hyper-marketed faction in all of GW.

Oh, and don't forget to answer those other questions you were asked!

 Sledgehammer wrote:
We need men in the Sororitas, the Calladius assassin temple and the sisters of silence. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group.

The difference between all of these (ignoring for a moment that you were also corrected on Callidus being all female) and Space Marines as the poster faction of the game were explained earlier in the thread.

It is perfectly acceptable for there to be all male or all female factions, where it makes sense within the setting.

It is less acceptable for the poster faction of the game to be an all male faction for no actual logical reason. It's exclusionary for no real benefit, it doesn't fit with the culture that faction is intended to represent, and it doesn't make sense within the bounds of the made-up science behind it.

The pleas for female space marines are almost always associated with an underlying and unstated opinion that the Sororitas, female guardsmen and any other female faction or character is somehow lesser or not as cool.

No, just that they're not space marines.

If I want a peanut butter sandwich, Reese's Pieces are not an acceptable substitute. Not because they are lesser, or not as cool... I'll quite likely have some at a different time. But just because they're not what I want when I feel like a sandwich.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Marines are the main faction of 40k. They're the most popular, most pushed, most diverse (except in gender) faction. Is that deserved? Not in my opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

Imperial Guard are likely the most diverse faction in 40k, certainly more so than Marines. They're just criminally underrepresented in models and depiction.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sledgehammer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remind me which real-world group Primaris Marines are, if you could. It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group Firstborn Marines are.

We need men in the Sororitas

There already are. I believe JNA mentioned earlier in this thread that one could run a 500point Sororitas list without fielding a single woman.

the Calladius assassin temple

Agreed. All Assassin temples should be all genders. However, I believe that the Callidus Temple *is*, and we just keep getting femme-presenting models for them.

and the sisters of silence.

Sure, agreed.

It’d be unfortunate for them to be represented into the exclusion of the real-world group.

Unfortunately, the thing you're missing is that these are all either:
- Already mixed gender
- Minor minor minor subfactions of larger groups, or incapable of being fielded as an army in their own right.

Not exactly equivalent to Space Marines, who are the face of 40k, and even have their own spin-off game, focused on the actions of Space Marine organisations (Horus Heresy). Try again.

The pleas for female space marines are almost always associated with an underlying and unstated opinion that the Sororitas, female guardsmen and any other female faction or character is somehow lesser or not as cool.

Oh, they're very cool alright. I collect all of them. But lesser? In terms of sales, public perception, marketing, units available, customisation, playstyles, accessibility to new players, resources, and being the literal face of the brand? Yes, they absolutely are.

Now, before you start claiming it: no, the Sisters aren't the same thing as Space Marines; no, those factions are just as cool and badass, but that's not what the problem is; no, those factions existing doesn't make up for the fact that Space Marines are the most hyper-marketed faction in all of GW.

Oh, and don't forget to answer those other questions you were asked!

Oh you think members of the Ecclisarchy are in the Adepta Sororitas? I'm not talking about the codex.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Marines are the main faction of 40k. They're the most popular, most pushed, most diverse (except in gender) faction. Is that deserved? Not in my opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

Imperial Guard are likely the most diverse faction in 40k, certainly more so than Marines. They're just criminally underrepresented in models and depiction.

Within the narrative universe of 40k, you're absolutely right.

Within the material world of 40k as a game, unfortunately not, as you mention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Oh you think members of the Ecclisarchy are in the Adepta Sororitas? I'm not talking about the codex.

So why are there men in my Adepta Sororitas codex? I thought they were supposed to be all women???

Also, answer the questions.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
And no one is stopping you from making female space marines.

Nobody is stopping me from scratch building a thunderhawk, either. I'd still prefer one in plastic.

You are taking away the appeal of the lore, theming, and how one views their army in that context, and I think you know that.

I don't know that, because the appeal of space marines is that they are genetically modified super soldiers in cool armour who serve as a blank template for whatever theme you want to apply to them, not that they're all men.

Again, if you want yours to be all men, do that. Nobody is stopping you. But your preference for men is a poor reason for other people to not have access to the models they want in their own army.

In case you forgot the questions, Sledgehammer, here you go.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Marines are the main faction of 40k. They're the most popular, most pushed, most diverse (except in gender) faction. Is that deserved? Not in my opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

Imperial Guard are likely the most diverse faction in 40k, certainly more so than Marines. They're just criminally underrepresented in models and depiction.

Within the narrative universe of 40k, you're absolutely right.

Within the material world of 40k as a game, unfortunately not, as you mention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Oh you think members of the Ecclisarchy are in the Adepta Sororitas? I'm not talking about the codex.

So why are there men in my Adepta Sororitas codex? I thought they were supposed to be all women???

Also, answer the questions.

Why are there aeronautica imperialis units in my imperial guard codex!!! I'm talking about themes and factions not codexes.....

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Marines are the main faction of 40k. They're the most popular, most pushed, most diverse (except in gender) faction. Is that deserved? Not in my opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

Imperial Guard are likely the most diverse faction in 40k, certainly more so than Marines. They're just criminally underrepresented in models and depiction.

Within the narrative universe of 40k, you're absolutely right.

Within the material world of 40k as a game, unfortunately not, as you mention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Oh you think members of the Ecclisarchy are in the Adepta Sororitas? I'm not talking about the codex.

So why are there men in my Adepta Sororitas codex? I thought they were supposed to be all women???

Also, answer the questions.

Why are there aeronautica imperialis units in my imperial guard codex!!! I'm talking about themes and factions not codexes.....

Cool. So if you're talking about themes and factions...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

There's two questions that hang pretty heavily on the theme you apparently think is so central to Marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Marines are the main faction of 40k. They're the most popular, most pushed, most diverse (except in gender) faction. Is that deserved? Not in my opinion, but it doesn't change the facts.

Imperial Guard are likely the most diverse faction in 40k, certainly more so than Marines. They're just criminally underrepresented in models and depiction.

Within the narrative universe of 40k, you're absolutely right.

Within the material world of 40k as a game, unfortunately not, as you mention.

Neglect in other places is a huge issue, it’s actually depressing at times.

Wow, looks like I missed one hell of a gakstorm while I was at work.

Now that I'm caught up, this particular bit of... conversation? ...jumped out at me.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Have you ever been in a fraternal society? Have you ever been in a group of men? The dynamic is different and to claim otherwise is to deny the truth.

I have! I was a Boy Scout in my teen years! ::looks at her sig:: Yeah, I know; I'm trans, get over it.

Point: I was a Boy Scout. Totally a fraternal order (of a sort). It was definitely a boys-only club at the time (the 90's) and the girls had their own - the Girl Scouts. The perception at the time was that the two groups tended to learn very different skillsets: the Boy Scouts learned knots, camping, and general survival skills, whereas the Girl Scouts learned things like sewing and cooking and general 'housewife' skills. The reality was probably somewhat different, so if anyone was a Girl Scout and would like to correct me, please do.

But you know what neither group was doing? Marching to war.

I would posit that while men and women might make friends in very different ways (and, hoo-boy, the crap that Boy Scouts get up to while left unattended tends to embarrass me in hindsight), the bonds between soldiers are forged in a third - and VERY different - fashion. I would posit that the bonds forged between Astartes has nothing to do with their sex or gender, but rather the circumstances of their shared existence (namely, a lifetime of never-ending war).

Space Marines aren't standing around in their off hours telling cringey off-color jokes or high-fiving each other for getting laid by the hottest Sororita - warfare is the only thing in their heads. The only thing they actually give a crap about has exactly dick to do with their dicks.*

At the end of the day, the only arguments against the inclusion of Female Space Marines has to do with the sexism of players, no matter the claims they try to wrap themselves in. And if you try to claim that the addition of women in the Adeptus Astartes is somehow taking something away from you instead of simply offering more options to others, that says far more about you than anything else that's been posted in this thread.

*I apologize for the crudity of this statement, but I think I a little extra *oomph* was needed for the analogy.

Well that sums that up.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Wow, looks like I missed one hell of a gakstorm while I was at work.

Now that I'm caught up, this particular bit of... conversation? ...jumped out at me.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Have you ever been in a fraternal society? Have you ever been in a group of men? The dynamic is different and to claim otherwise is to deny the truth.

I have! I was a Boy Scout in my teen years! ::looks at her sig:: Yeah, I know; I'm trans, get over it.

Point: I was a Boy Scout. Totally a fraternal order (of a sort). It was definitely a boys-only club at the time (the 90's) and the girls had their own - the Girl Scouts. The perception at the time was that the two groups tended to learn very different skillsets: the Boy Scouts learned knots, camping, and general survival skills, whereas the Girl Scouts learned things like sewing and cooking and general 'housewife' skills. The reality was probably somewhat different, so if anyone was a Girl Scout and would like to correct me, please do.

But you know what neither group was doing? Marching to war.

I would posit that while men and women might make friends in very different ways (and, hoo-boy, the crap that Boy Scouts get up to while left unattended tends to embarrass me in hindsight), the bonds between soldiers are forged in a third - and VERY different - fashion. I would posit that the bonds forged between Astartes has nothing to do with their sex or gender, but rather the circumstances of their shared existence (namely, a lifetime of never-ending war).

Space Marines aren't standing around in their off hours telling cringey off-color jokes or high-fiving each other for getting laid by the hottest Sororita - warfare is the only thing in their heads. The only thing they actually give a crap about has exactly dick to do with their dicks.*

At the end of the day, the only arguments against the inclusion of Female Space Marines has to do with the sexism of players, so matter the claims they try to wrap themselves in. And if you try to claim that the addition of women in the Adeptus Astartes is somehow taking something away from you instead of simply offering more options to others, that says far more about you than anything else that's been posted in this thread.

*I apologize for the crudity of this statement, but I think I a little extra *oomph* was needed for the analogy.

So it's wrong to want a faction that appeals to the ideals of a fraternal order / society.

Nice!

Is there a reason you're outright ignoring Smudge's questions?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

Sledgehammer wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Oh you think members of the Ecclisarchy are in the Adepta Sororitas? I'm not talking about the codex.

So why are there men in my Adepta Sororitas codex? I thought they were supposed to be all women???

Also, answer the questions.

Why are there aeronautica imperialis units in my imperial guard codex!!! I'm talking about themes and factions not codexes.....

Really? Care to talk about these themes?

- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
So it's wrong to want a faction that appeals to the ideals of a fraternal order / society.

What part of that "fraternal order/society" is represented in Space Marines which can ONLY be done if they're all male?

You've been given a list of questions to answer which might get to the root of whatever it is you're trying to avoid saying.

Also, excellent insight, Manfred von Drakken. Much appreciated.
Likewise, JNA, I appreciate you reposting my questions, so that they might grant a bit of insight into these beliefs.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
So it's wrong to want a faction that appeals to the ideals of a fraternal order / society.

If you want an army that is, say, a group of Space Vikings with furry sidekicks, does the existence of Ultramarines affect how you feel about Space Wolves?

If you want an army of bike-riding desert steppe nomads, does the existence of Space Wolves affect how you feel about White Scars?

If you want an army of fast moving assault specialists, does the existence of Devastators impact how you relate to your army?

If you believe that only in death does duty end, does the fact that a Land Raider is sitting on a store shelf somewhere make you like Dreadnoughts any less?


If you want an army of all-man-all-the-time space marines, the existence of female marines, once again, doesn't actually need to have the slightest impact on your army.

As I typically post with the enthusiasm (and some would posit the mentality)of a Ritalin-deprived 9 year old (ie. Big Smashy Robots = Good Time for All)...

But you might have noticed, for the most part, that I've pretty much steered clear of this thread.

And this is why...

I see threads like these on boards across the 'net divide individual posters into their own camps and then launch arguments at one another without the forethought of the fact that some posts may honestly be hurtful to others.

We all must be aware that when someone says that your outlook is invalid, it can be hurtful.

So... before you post something, that could instill some negative emotions in others, take moment to step back, take a deep breath and decide if your post is based on an emotional knee-jerk reaction to someone's comment, or an honest appraisal of the situation, that pushes the debate forward.

That's my two cents. I just want us to remember why we are here, to share a community with other people who share common interests with us, around the globe.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is there a reason you're outright ignoring Smudge's questions?

I would imagine for the same reason a politician won't answer the questions asked of them: the answers would make them look bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
We all must be aware that when someone says that your outlook is invalid, it can be hurtful.

Frankly, not all outlooks are valid, and some so-called opinions are objectively wrong. To use the most outlandish example I can quickly think of: flat-Earthers.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
At the end of the day, the only arguments against the inclusion of Female Space Marines has to do with the sexism of players, no matter the claims they try to wrap themselves in.

I have to say, this is one of the types of arguments that eventually drove me into the anti-FSM camp.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is there a reason you're outright ignoring Smudge's questions?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

Brotherhood and sisterhood are close cultural and biologically determined relationships that can only develop between members of a group with shared experiences and traits.
Space marines fulfill this function by interacting with each other and thus forming unique relationships that only they can have with one another via those struggles, traits, and experiences.
Men can empathize with Sororitas, and women can empathize with space marines. By definition you cannot have an intersex brotherhood or sisterhood. Instead that is comradeship which already exists in the other imperial factions.


The reality of space marines being male and performing actions with their other males is exactly how bonds of brotherhood can be forged between men. Brother hood can only be obtained via men because they share the same state, the same general traits, and the same experiences along with the same proclivities. Their sex/gender is a part of that because our sex determines not only our biology, but how others perceive us within a group. We know that relationships between men and women tend to be different in their function in the real world as evidenced in numerous studies. There is nothing wrong with emulating both and humanizing the members of those groups who engage in that. However to integrate these group, when integration already exists in spades elsewhere simply homogenizes the factions and degrades their unique identity.

To remove brotherhood from a faction of brothers is to destroy them.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
- What defines brotherhood and sisterhood in a way that makes them mutually exclusive, without resorting to describing the genders of those who perform those relationships?
- Where do queer people fit in with these definitions?
- How do Space Marines and Sisters of Battle respectively perform these relationships in a meaningful way in the 41st millenium?
- If Space Marines are to be empathised with, why should men be able to, but not women?
- What acts of exclusively "male friendship" do Space Marines perform, which could only be performed by men?
- Why is it necessary for everyone's Space Marines, not just yours, to be all-male?

You missed some of it.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Their sex/gender is a part of that because our sex determines not only our biology, but how others perceive us within a group.

In a group that has removed biological reproduction as a function, that exists in a society that sees no distinction between men and women, how do you think sex would influence the different perception of men and women?