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How viable would a pure-Gravis Marine list be?

Only six units on the table, one of which is Battleline.

Characters
Apothecary
Captain

Battleline
Heavy Intercessors

Other
Aggressors
Eradicators
Inceptors

Edit: Oh, also some Named Characters who I don't like to use.

Iron Father Feirros
Marneus Calgar
Tor Garadon

It should cover all the bases? You have the tools to deal with both chaff and tanks, at least one mobile unit.

It’s going to be low model count, and light on cheep screening units or action monkeys. You will have bad matchups.

But for FLGS play? I think you could do a decent TAC list.

Is the Techmarine not Gravis?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is the Techmarine not Gravis?

The named IH guy is, not the basic techmarine.

Could go Deathwatch and add some Indominator KTs in.

Anyways, to answer the question?

Not sure what the points are like, but I understand Gravis unit are pretty tough to kill as each model has W3.

Which means for your half of the battle, you’ve fairly decent resilience to attrition.

Whether you can match that with solid firepower of your own to take advantage of your own resilience, I genuinely do not know.

I’m fairly confident in a straight infantry v infantry you’ve a decent advantage from resilience and precision. But against vehicle heavy, you may well struggle if your “only Gravis” also means no tanks or other supporty type units.

Hmm. I've played against a list that was mostly just gravis, land raiders, and some hell blasters. Super light on bodies. Everything demanded that I kill it before it could start shooting at me or I'd trade poorly. However, the low model count meant I was able to comfortably concentrate bright lances on the gravis units, and my opponent felt each loss. The hellblasters were a major annoyance, so turning them into more gravis seems likeit would make the list easier to deal with...

Generally, I feel like a lot of my go-to units would handle gravit pretty well. Anything with a bright lance threatens you, often from out of your own range. Night spinners kind of like shooting at you because your Toughness is high enough for twin-linked to matter, and you have enough wounds with good enough armor for D2 DW to hurt. Karandras will be looking to pounce. Windriders will wound you pretty reliably and do decent damage.

My lists usually do well into more elite armies with a small number of durable things for me to focus on killing, so I might have an easy time against an all gravis army.

What's the typical OC of a Gravis Marine?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyways, to answer the question?

Not sure what the points are like, but I understand Gravis unit are pretty tough to kill as each model has W3.

Which means for your half of the battle, you’ve fairly decent resilience to attrition.

Whether you can match that with solid firepower of your own to take advantage of your own resilience, I genuinely do not know.

I’m fairly confident in a straight infantry v infantry you’ve a decent advantage from resilience and precision. But against vehicle heavy, you may well struggle if your “only Gravis” also means no tanks or other supporty type units.

Don't forget T6. Almost all "basic weapons" will be 5+ to wound.

I'm assuming All Gravis doesn't exclude vehicles like Tanks and Dreads which can help with the firepower. While you've got some decent Melta you don't have S12.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
What's the typical OC of a Gravis Marine?

Mostly 1. The heavy intercessors are 2. There is the apothecary, who starts with a 3, but if his unit kills something in melee goes to 9. Aggressors are punchy, and he can join a unit that already has a captain,

So not the best OC, but something…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

I'm assuming All Gravis doesn't exclude vehicles like Tanks and Dreads which can help with the firepower. While you've got some decent Melta you don't have S12.

While lacking high S weapons, there is a chunk of twin linked, so re-rolling wound checks (aggressors, inceptors) Against things that need it, eradicators get full re-rolls on everything, and the biologis gives his squad lethal hits, which can bypass the whole high-T issue.

All foot units has a chance. They might not be the best tool for the job, but can fake it. And this is all from datasheets, before detachments and strats.

That said, some repulsors or LRs to provide some big guns, get eradicators in range quicker, or some OC on objective sounds like a good idea to me. And dreads are always fun to have around, and fit the slow and tanky theme of the list.

I see this list running into some of the same issues as the Adeptus Custodes.

Hard to kill, but lacking long range killing power, unless you drop in a tank or dreadnought.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. I've played against a list that was mostly just gravis, land raiders, and some hell blasters. Super light on bodies. Everything demanded that I kill it before it could start shooting at me or I'd trade poorly. However, the low model count meant I was able to comfortably concentrate bright lances on the gravis units, and my opponent felt each loss. The hellblasters were a major annoyance, so turning them into more gravis seems likeit would make the list easier to deal with...

Generally, I feel like a lot of my go-to units would handle gravit pretty well. Anything with a bright lance threatens you, often from out of your own range. Night spinners kind of like shooting at you because your Toughness is high enough for twin-linked to matter, and you have enough wounds with good enough armor for D2 DW to hurt. Karandras will be looking to pounce. Windriders will wound you pretty reliably and do decent damage.

My lists usually do well into more elite armies with a small number of durable things for me to focus on killing, so I might have an easy time against an all gravis army.

On this observation? As someone largely divorced from the current game.

When it comes to your counter, were you able to do that because your opponent made poor targetting choices?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I see this list running into some of the same issues as the Adeptus Custodes.

Hard to kill, but lacking long range killing power, unless you drop in a tank or dreadnought.

You are not wrong.

The HI have 30” rifles, so can project a reasonable amount for fire downrange. But while nice for an battleline’s rifle, are not erasing stuff off the table.

Inceptors a reasonably fast with 18” assault weapons, so can scoot and shoot around.

I think a gravis list is going to be an aggressor death-ball pushing up the center of the table, while Hintercessors try to hold objectives and inceptors drop backfield to cause havoc/do actions, shoot stuff. Eradictors try to survive long enough to melt stuff. The lack or long range should be offset by controlling the center of the battlefield. If stuff wants to cower in the corners, drop the inceptors on them.

 Nevelon wrote:


I think a gravis list is going to be an aggressor death-ball pushing up the center of the table, while Hintercessors try to hold objectives and inceptors drop backfield to cause havoc/do actions, shoot stuff. Eradictors try to survive long enough to melt stuff. The lack or long range should be offset by controlling the center of the battlefield. If stuff wants to cower in the corners, drop the inceptors on them.

I think this would be the best way to run the list as well. Agressor Deathballs are hard to deal with en-masse and with Inceptors zipping around to pick off high value targets that counter you, this could do decently well. Big question is, can you afford the transports to make optimal use of Eradicators, or just leave them by the wayside and take your lumps from big things?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I see this list running into some of the same issues as the Adeptus Custodes.

Hard to kill, but lacking long range killing power, unless you drop in a tank or dreadnought.

Even more so than Custodes. They don't have Jetbikes. No deepstrike. No Vexilla for bonus OC because GW still hasn't figured that out, No Sisters of Silence.

 Tawnis wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:


I think a gravis list is going to be an aggressor death-ball pushing up the center of the table, while Hintercessors try to hold objectives and inceptors drop backfield to cause havoc/do actions, shoot stuff. Eradictors try to survive long enough to melt stuff. The lack or long range should be offset by controlling the center of the battlefield. If stuff wants to cower in the corners, drop the inceptors on them.

I think this would be the best way to run the list as well. Agressor Deathballs are hard to deal with en-masse and with Inceptors zipping around to pick off high value targets that counter you, this could do decently well. Big question is, can you afford the transports to make optimal use of Eradicators, or just leave them by the wayside and take your lumps from big things?

The core of the list is a little over 1,000 points.
6 man aggressor squad with captain and biologis
3x3 inceptor squads
3x5 heavy intercessors.

If you are going up to 2k there is space for a pair of repulsors with squads of melta onboard. Or some dreads. Or both. Some AV, preferably with some range, would help round things out.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:


I think a gravis list is going to be an aggressor death-ball pushing up the center of the table, while Hintercessors try to hold objectives and inceptors drop backfield to cause havoc/do actions, shoot stuff. Eradictors try to survive long enough to melt stuff. The lack or long range should be offset by controlling the center of the battlefield. If stuff wants to cower in the corners, drop the inceptors on them.

I think this would be the best way to run the list as well. Agressor Deathballs are hard to deal with en-masse and with Inceptors zipping around to pick off high value targets that counter you, this could do decently well. Big question is, can you afford the transports to make optimal use of Eradicators, or just leave them by the wayside and take your lumps from big things?

The core of the list is a little over 1,000 points.
6 man aggressor squad with captain and biologis
3x3 inceptor squads
3x5 heavy intercessors.

If you are going up to 2k there is space for a pair of repulsors with squads of melta onboard. Or some dreads. Or both. Some AV, preferably with some range, would help round things out.

Just playing at a first pass:
Calgar

HINT x5
HINT x5
HINT x5

Aggressor x6

Plasma Inceptors x6

(And they aren't Gravis but they sort of fit)
Cent Devs x6

Gladiator Reaper
Gladiator Reaper
Gladiator Lancer

Ballistus Dread

Calgar lets the Aggressors Advance and Charge/Shoot. The Cent Devs give you lascannon and Missile, same as the Ballistus Dread - Two Reapers for anti-infantry punch because you're definitely losing the model count competition, a Lancer to back up the Cent Devs and Ballistus Dread who will likely focus anti-tank then frag.

Again
1) First Pass
2) Cents aren't Gravis, but they're in keeping with the theme/skew.

Its not horrible, especially for a pickup game. I'd worry about getting SOME side eye for having everything T6 and above, but I think the drawbacks will more than make up for it to your opponent unless your theme/skew hits their theme/skew perfectly. Calgar giving the Advance and Nom-Nom to the Aggressor brick is a lynchpin. Not much "synergy", not much interaction between your units. It checks most boxes except the one making you pay attention. Probably fun here and there in a pickup game but I'd guess a steady diet would be boring. With the death of Aggressor Bombs I'm not even sure which Det to run, or if it matters.

It’s a skew list, but no more then the average custodes list. I don’t think there would be too much stink eye tossed about.

When fleshing out theme lists it’s always a question of how flexible you are willing to be. I’d personally not cross the line to cents, and would add more tanks a/o dreads instead, but that’s just my preference.

One nice thing about marines and their giant toolbox. Plenty of options to get the job done.

 Nevelon wrote:
It’s a skew list, but no more then the average custodes list. I don’t think there would be too much stink eye tossed about.

When fleshing out theme lists it’s always a question of how flexible you are willing to be. I’d personally not cross the line to cents, and would add more tanks a/o dreads instead, but that’s just my preference.

One nice thing about marines and their giant toolbox. Plenty of options to get the job done.

That's why I think an all Gravis list would get SOME but not much side eye. They don't HAVE to be there. If/when Gravis have Lascanon units I'd go there but its not much of a leap from Gravis to Cent, and they fit + fill a hole. But yeah its all down to play style. WIth more Tanks you don't need the infantry Las. For my own tastes, its still got the auto-pilot problem. It just is. Beyond the same basic interactions you always have (when/where to move, who/what to shoot/fight etc) Its not like the Lion's Blade army where you have to time the charges of your bikes to improve the charges of your Deathwing, so that everyone makes it to max out the Strat.

Probably spending far too much time thinking about a theoretical you'll probably never see but...

I wonder how a list would look if you went wide.
Vanguard Spearhead Detachment.

1995 points
Captain with the Blade Driven Deep.
Aggressors x6

HI x10
HI x10
HI x10
HI x10
HI x5

Eradicators x3
Eradicators x3
Eradicators x3

Inceptors x3
Inceptors x3
Inceptors x3

You could debate what unit is best to infiltrate depending on your opponent/map set up. Some armies will hate 10 HI/6 Aggressors starting on a central objective (which you can make sticky), others won't care that much.

Plus points. Decent number of models at 70. Over 200 wounds all at T6, 3+ save. 12 squads which is quite flexible. With Vanguard detachment you are -1 to hit if outside of 12", and gain cover (not so good given the 3+ save, but will ward off a point of AP). Reasonable (imo - not a Marine player) suite of stratagems to burn your CP on. Beyond some hard skew into high AP and 3 damage guns, there's not much that's going to clear you off objectives by shooting.

Negatives. Inceptor movement isn't too bad at 10" (its not great) - but the army as a whole is quite slow - perhaps especially as you aren't really interested in charging anything beyond battleline infantry. To be fair Heavy Intercessors and Inceptors have assault, so if you aren't interested in charging you might as well advance each turn which ups them a bit.

Which is the next big weakness. The whole army is very bad in assault. Especially compared with say Custodes or massed Tyranid Warriors in their new detachment. Aggressors are okay in a pinch I guess - but I feel nothing special for the points. Heavy Intercessors/Eradicators/Inceptors are dire. You don't have that great OC for the points either. I think you could easily just get into an extended brawl on objectives that you don't hold. Oaths of Moment can potentially help a bit here but none of these units are assault specialists. As an army you really want to stay out of assault - I guess playing a bit like Tau. Being able to fall back, shoot and charge could be valuable - but I'm not sure there's a cheap way to get it. Gladius Task Force for Tactical Doctrine in one turn isn't entirely convincing versus being obnoxious to shoot outside 12" all game.

Slotting in Calgar or Tor Garadon (versus vehicles/monsters) would up your assault potential. Tor Garadon especially isn't a crazy idea, as another weakness of this list is its anti-vehicle/monster potential. Eradicators are okay but they are kind of asking to be deleted. Hopefully with 3 squads they shouldn't all disappear in a turn. But the problem is that he's slow - so can potentially just be avoided unless waddling up centre of the table. I think there's a case for seeing how the Infiltrating Captain does and if its proving a bit pointless maybe drop him for a special character. Calgar+Captain theoretically upgrades CP consumption per turn from 2 to 4, but I'm not sure this is worth it.

You could trade off a lot of the Heavy Intercessors for more Aggressors/Inceptors/Eradicators - but I think that makes your list more fragile and less wide. Its arguably necessary though to get some more points down.

For example:
Calgar
Captain

Heavy Intercessors x5
Heavy Intercessors x5

Aggressors x6
Aggressors x6
Aggressors x3

Inceptor x6
Inceptor x6
Inceptor x3

Eradicators x3
Eradicators x3
Eradicators x3

But... idk. This is 20 fewer models on the table - and 60 wounds. I just don't know if aggressors and inceptors are all that good. It comes down to what your opponent is running.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. I've played against a list that was mostly just gravis, land raiders, and some hell blasters. Super light on bodies. Everything demanded that I kill it before it could start shooting at me or I'd trade poorly. However, the low model count meant I was able to comfortably concentrate bright lances on the gravis units, and my opponent felt each loss. The hellblasters were a major annoyance, so turning them into more gravis seems likeit would make the list easier to deal with...

Generally, I feel like a lot of my go-to units would handle gravit pretty well. Anything with a bright lance threatens you, often from out of your own range. Night spinners kind of like shooting at you because your Toughness is high enough for twin-linked to matter, and you have enough wounds with good enough armor for D2 DW to hurt. Karandras will be looking to pounce. Windriders will wound you pretty reliably and do decent damage.

My lists usually do well into more elite armies with a small number of durable things for me to focus on killing, so I might have an easy time against an all gravis army.

On this observation? As someone largely divorced from the current game.

When it comes to your counter, were you able to do that because your opponent made poor targetting choices?

It was more an issue of their movement/deployment than their targeting choices. But their targeting choices didn't help.