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PenitentJake wrote:The implementation of this is everything.

I have some fears- I'm afraid of losing Daemon units- especially the recent additions (Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitome). Right now, the Contorted Epitome doesn't show up for 40k Daemons in the Webstore, so perhaps the trimming has already begun.

Arbitrary point limits are also another barrier we could do without.

I'm curious about the Crusade content. The Great Game Crusade rules from the 9th ed Daemons book were cool, and might now be lost. The content in 10th EC may favour the Legion and neglect the daemons, in much the same way the Core Tau Crusade content was light on Kroot. They were included... But subordinate (until White Dwarf released pure Kroot Crusade rules).

Time will tell, and it may not take long. I'm likely to buy in for the EC box since there isn't an Eldar one (though the new Eldar Combat Patrol might be good).

Why would daemons lose units in 40k, especially the newest, better looking stuff? I can see a refresh happening for some units, like the older daemonette units and the Soul Grinder, but not being completely deleted.

Overread wrote:Some of the models vanishing might just be them moving to new slots in advance of the EC release and update to the store structure or just the store being badly laid out. The Contorted Epitome is still in AoS.


I'll be honestly I think some demon models have suffered from being jointly released for AoS and 40K at times with fantasy taking a lead. Eg a bunch of them just feel "odd" in a sci-fi setting. I've said this before if things like the Slaanesh Chariot got a 40K version that was upgraded parts or totally unique it might improve the model a lot over something that clearly works in fantasy but feels strange in sci-fi.


Still losing things is never nice for fans of a faction so I hope Slaanesh fans don't lose models in the transfer.

Almost all of the daemon range looks odd in a science fiction setting, with the exception of the Soul Grinder. That's the point, they aren't futuristic aliens that keep up with the times in terms of weapons and other technology, but creatures birthed from humanity's greatest fears that go back millions of years. They're stuck in time because they were created long before anything that we would consider modern technology, and reflect a mixture humanity's emotions and trauma from long ago, as well as the aesthetics of mankind's earliest conflicts, strife and machinations.

Eh I think its more that GW took a fantasy army and put them in 40K and then never really updated their visual design language/added any new models in a very very very long time.

We have demons with guns - they are all over the place. Furthermore there's no reason that demons can't pick up a bow and arrow or a musket or a cannon etc... Things that are also around in the fantasy setting.


It's also the style of miniature. Even for close combat the offerings feel odd at times - I bring up the Slaanesh Chariot often because its awesome for fantasy you can see it mowing its way through the rank and file; as soon as it hits Tau battlesuits and Space Marines though it doesn't quite visually work. Sure great against swarms of Termagaunts and Imperial Guard - but other stuff not so much.


Again I think the greater issue is that they were fantasy armies transposed into 40K and then never given any new design language/options. Possibly because of some mandate that all the mdoels had to be cross game compatible so they just went for a lot of close combat/magic units that work in both games without messing up the visual language of either game.

With the separate codex per demon faction and with GW being even more militant with their internal division of game departments I could see it being a time where demons would start to get game specific models between AoS and 40K. And in my view that works great for both games - it gives something with just that touch of looking unique.

We already have models like the Demon Prince which can have a gun and sword look to them - so extending that out to more models would be great to see

 Wyldhunt wrote:


As someone who has played pure harlies a fair bit recently, I don't really want most of that.

A combat patrol would be fine, but Combat Patrol as a game is more like tutorial mode for actual 40k, so not something I see myself using much in the long run. If anything, Kill Team would be a better fit as it would give the designers room to provide some juicy, fluffy rules for each player of the troupe and an excuse to do some alternative sculpts for characters.

A troupe master model is absolutely not needed. Getting one for "free" in the troupe box is fantastic and comes with plenty of cool bits as-is. I absolutely do not want to add $35 do the price of someone's starting army just for the sake of standardizing how models are sold. An anti-tank DJ would be neat.

I don't really like the CP mode, but it's another thing that makes Harlequins players excluded. Boarding Actions is where they shine, but in that mode you don't get vehicles, leaving a small Harlequins force at 500 in regular play which some are now annoyingly picky about playing at exactly 1K, 2K or 3K sizes.

Here's the thing about the Troupe Master - its no longer a Troupe Master in that kit, but now officially a Lead player. In the 8th edition box it was specifically a Troupe Master, but since the 9th edition reboxing its a Lead Player - a unit leader. All one has to do is look at the Prime in the Tyranid Warriors kit, and the Winged Prime, to see where they're going with this...

But getting back to Daemons, I'm relishing the thought of starting a Thousand Sons army, as I have two boxes worth of Horrors and I love them, but I can see GW pulling them in favour of new 40K-specific models that leaves them back in AoS country. At the moment I'm hoping they just introduce the AOS sprues with 40K packaging...

Breton wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

I was wondering if the Primarchs were going to be able to double dip.

I'm not sure I follow this at all. Why would they need two of things for a single codex?

 LunarSol wrote:

Breton wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

I was wondering if the Primarchs were going to be able to double dip.

I'm not sure I follow this at all. Why would they need two of things for a single codex?

Well I assume the Daemon Prince this is Faction/Keyword related. My wonder is if they're going to let the Daemon Primarchs be Daemons AND Space Marines at the same time.

I assume all of this stuff is falling under a single faction keyword. No reason to create complications by splitting them out.

Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Yup, they want you to play one of the god aligned legions or Black Legion....i feel for IW, AL, DA, NL players

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

Cool, thanks!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

Plus, if each Legion is getting a light infantry 'troop' unit in the form of lesser daemons, the role of cultists gets duplicated.

Plus plus GW aren't going to add Accursed Cultists or the Dark Communion, so I can well imagine that they'll want to create a greater separation between their product lines ('Don't use the same models in multiple armies! Buy it again!') You can see this with the two pink not-Legionnaire units.

I've long wanted cultists to be less of a fodder unit for god-aligned factions and more of a support unit. Let the banner in a chaos squad basically be a homing beacon for deepstrikers to land closer to the enemy (Treating cultists like a transport, sorta). Let tzeentch cultists perform magic rituals to generate cabal points or put up protective wards. Let nurgle cultists putrify areas where they're slain causing clouds of flies to form and act as cover. Let khorne cultists empower daemons with ritual sacrifices. Let slaaneshi cultists empower nearby daemons while under half strength (representing their agony echoing in the warp.)

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Plus, if each Legion is getting a light infantry 'troop' unit in the form of lesser daemons, the role of cultists gets duplicated.

Plus plus GW aren't going to add Accursed Cultists or the Dark Communion, so I can well imagine that they'll want to create a greater separation between their product lines ('Don't use the same models in multiple armies! Buy it again!') You can see this with the two pink not-Legionnaire units.

i disagree, lesser demons and cultists are NOT on the same level

It really depends how GW wants the armies to be. In AoS they certainly have lesser and greater mortal followers. GW might decide that the God Specific factions get some god-specific cultists and then Generic Chaos has other Cultists. Or they might just stick to them being chock full of marines with demons as the chaff at the front etc

It might even vary a bit army to army. There's a lot of ways they can take it and they've only really just started

Yeah, I'm not sure this is good thing.

On the stream they listed out units EC will keep (so that people would go out and buy them), and a lot of stuff was gone, just like the other god-specific lists.

The lack of big guns (predators, forgefiend, and even hellbrutes) was noticeable.

Fiends and Seekers fill in for bikes, warp talons and raptors in terms of speed if not weapons.

It makes me wonder what the other god-specific armies will lose in the changeover.

I don't think they'll get much- I suspect DG will only get the new character, for example. And now I doubt if WE will get bikes or berserkers on juggers since they're getting the daemons on juggers and flesh hounds.

I also won't be surprised when the time comes and Codex Marines lose access to old tanks, and the only army with predators and etc are non-god Chaos Marines.

I suspect that pink Forgefiends will actually stay, purely because we know that Maulerfiends are staying, and GW won't trust consumers not to build the kit wrong.

I don't think it's folding/squatting the Daemons Codex.

They said some Drukhari datashseets are in Aeldari, so you have easy reference for the Ynnari-detachment.

EC will have a Brood Brothers / Final Day-style detachment for combining Daemons and some datasheets for reference.

If GSC had been a later Codex, they probably would've printed some Astra and Tyranid datasheets in there as well for reference, as seems to be the new norm now.


Don't think Drukhari, Astra, Tyranid or Daemons Codex on their own get cancelled over this.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

I didn't know they got cultists! I rather assumed poxwalkers and tzaangor were the equivalent for them...

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure this is good thing.

On the stream they listed out units EC will keep (so that people would go out and buy them), and a lot of stuff was gone, just like the other god-specific lists.

The lack of big guns (predators, forgefiend, and even hellbrutes) was noticeable.

Fiends and Seekers fill in for bikes, warp talons and raptors in terms of speed if not weapons.

It makes me wonder what the other god-specific armies will lose in the changeover.

I don't think they'll get much- I suspect DG will only get the new character, for example. And now I doubt if WE will get bikes or berserkers on juggers since they're getting the daemons on juggers and flesh hounds.

I also won't be surprised when the time comes and Codex Marines lose access to old tanks, and the only army with predators and etc are non-god Chaos Marines.

I don't think it was an exhaustive list, just some examples off the top of their head. I'm sure some things will be gone but I'm equally sure there are units not listed in the reveal that will be available to EC. Predators are the most likely since every other Legion gets them and the Chaos vehicle sprue has upgrade bits for all the gods.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I've long wanted cultists to be less of a fodder unit for god-aligned factions and more of a support unit. Let the banner in a chaos squad basically be a homing beacon for deepstrikers to land closer to the enemy (Treating cultists like a transport, sorta). Let tzeentch cultists perform magic rituals to generate cabal points or put up protective wards. Let nurgle cultists putrify areas where they're slain causing clouds of flies to form and act as cover. Let khorne cultists empower daemons with ritual sacrifices. Let slaaneshi cultists empower nearby daemons while under half strength (representing their agony echoing in the warp.)

It's not a good detachment, but I love Chaos Knights eating cultists for rules.

very fond of this choice. WE is anemic enough that the addition of demons will help them out a lot, even if they don't get new models with the codex (they really need them, tho...)

ksons, also. i think demons are going to mesh well with the existing tzaangors subtheme

and i'm curious how this is going to affect the new army in EC, since we won't have anything prior to compare to. but i think slaanesh especially will compliment marines in style

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
very fond of this choice. WE is anemic enough that the addition of demons will help them out a lot, even if they don't get new models with the codex (they really need them, tho...)

ksons, also. i think demons are going to mesh well with the existing tzaangors subtheme

and i'm curious how this is going to affect the new army in EC, since we won't have anything prior to compare to. but i think slaanesh especially will compliment marines in style

It actually makes me worried/sad. Adding Demons to WE is just a bandaid, not a cure. They've gone on a spree adding/splitting new factions, but not really doing a full model release. Look at all the "new" factions and how much variety and option they have at 2K. Custodes have something like 9 Non-Character-Non-Transport-Non-"Forgeworld" units. Votann have seven. Thousand Sons have 16 - but a lot of them (somewhere around 11) are Black Legion stuff painted blue. And on and on and on. I'd like to see - in addition to/more than/separately from this merger - I'd like to see GW take a pause for the cause and flesh out all of these "new" factions with a pretty hefty infusion of fluffy datasheets to make them "complete".

Breton wrote:
It actually makes me worried/sad. Adding Demons to WE is just a bandaid, not a cure.

I'm sure that the one-dimensional melee faction can be patched up real good by the addition of a melee monster, five squint-and-they're different melee characters, a melee infantry, two melee cavalry, and one gun.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Breton wrote:
It actually makes me worried/sad. Adding Demons to WE is just a bandaid, not a cure.

I'm sure that the one-dimensional melee faction can be patched up real good by the addition of a melee monster, five squint-and-they're different melee characters, a melee infantry, two melee cavalry, and one gun.

But the melee infantry have swords, not axes!

Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

Tygre wrote:
I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

There should be unaligned lesser daemons, IMO, like the (apparently defunct?) Chaos furies. Also I'm not aware of Be'lakor being aligned with any specific Chaos god.

I'm not too familiar with traitor legion lore... Are there any of them that want as little to do with daemons and Chaos gods as possible, and are only loosely aligned with Chaos in an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of way? If so, I guess they could lack access to daemon options, though I don't think it'll hobble them all that much in gameplay terms. Some armies do quite well with a more limited model range.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I've long wanted cultists to be less of a fodder unit for god-aligned factions and more of a support unit.

Agreed. In fact I could see them as an army in their own right, because right now Chaos is almost only Marines.

Genestealer cults are, in many ways, what Chaos cults should have been. A ragtag bunch of rebels and renegades who make do with repurposed equipment and dark "gifts" from their masters.

.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

Oh, come on, there's lots of variety.

You have your Kharn the Betrayer Close Combat list, you have your Angron, the Red Angel Close Combat list, and you have your Kharn and Angron Close Combat list.

If I win the lottery, I'm building a World Eaters army that is all ranged combat.

-Guardsman- wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

There should be unaligned lesser daemons, IMO, like the (apparently defunct?) Chaos furies. Also I'm not aware of Be'lakor being aligned with any specific Chaos god.

I'm not too familiar with traitor legion lore... Are there any of them that want as little to do with daemons and Chaos gods as possible, and are only loosely aligned with Chaos in an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of way? If so, I guess they could lack access to daemon options, though I don't think it'll hobble them all that much in gameplay terms. Some armies do quite well with a more limited model range.

In both settings, Be'lakor was the First Daemon Prince. He was the first champion that all four Powers were able to get behind. Then he failed and was shunned, and now he seeks to depose all of them.

As for anti-daemon Legions, the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion are the least interested in Daemons and Gods. Individual warriors or squads (or maybe even warbands) might choose to venerate one God over the others, but generally they're more interested in rabble-rousing than outright Chaos worship.

Word Bearers, on the other hand...

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

If you want THAT kind of variety. And Khorne isn't always melee - they still have Tanks, the Lord of Skulls, and so forth - short range shooters wouldn't be out of line.