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OK. Definitely making me look more favourable on Rangers, provided I can get them Plunging Fire position, and perhaps a War Walker for that killer -3 AP in total.

Even if I’m 5+ to wound, 10 shots hitting on 2+ for D2 should do the trick. Not necessarily on average, but close enough to be something I might factor in to a general plan, Spesh given the benefits.

 bullyboy wrote:
Well, second game with my Eldar, and although we didn’t get to finish, there was little chance of me catching up. So 0-2 so far with the new elves. This time was vs Bullyboyz, just got overwhelmed at the objectives.
Amazing how often I’m missing with my brightlances, really miss the rerolls.
So far my dragons have been really disappointing so need to change up the way I’m playing them (deep strike out of falcon).
Lots of thinking (and practice to do)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what are people planning for their back line? I’ve been using guardians last 2 games but wondering if I should choose something cheaper, either rangers, corsairs or a small aspect unit (avengers).
What are you guys running?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a final question, what are people putting in their Falcons? It seems that Dragons are a waste as their rules clash with the falcons rules. Reapers? Avengers? Warlock Conclave?

I've used Reapers with Maugan Ra in a Falcon. I liked it. Other options I'm eyeing but have not tried are Asurmen/Avengers and Jain Zar/Banshees.

My last game I used two Shadow Weavers for backfield screening. The damage was a bit 'meh' but through positioning, those cheap pieces made zoning out the board pretty easy.

 bullyboy wrote:

Also, what are people planning for their back line? I’ve been using guardians last 2 games but wondering if I should choose something cheaper, either rangers, corsairs or a small aspect unit (avengers).
What are you guys ?

Well, here's my 2 standard, non-force specific, answers....
1) My partner(s).
About 1/2 the games I play are multi-player team games where everyone typically brings 1k.
I'll do backline duty if required/requested, but I'm an aggressive player so most of my stuff is always causing havoc mid board +....
2) typically Spindle Drones (see Unaligned Legends) - I'm not a tourney player so I have more options.
I often use 1-2 squads. I don't need them doing anything other than objective holding & screening, so these things are perfect

And here's what I did last week solo....
1 Wayleaper
1 full unit of Fire Dragons
1 5x unit of Reapers - not really in the backfield, but on a nice high position where they could cover
●The Dragons FELT like a waste, but there was alot of area & the foe was Custodes. This opponent isn't too wild about putting stuff in reserves &/or Deepstrike, but he will do the uppydown thing occasionally. So I needed a big unit with firepower.
After the game the opponent admitted that those Dragons had dettered him from bouncing into my DZ as he didn't fancy eating eating a 10x fusion gun overwatch. And then Reaper fire he really couldn't answer. So not a waste!

The legends rules are up for the units removed. It looks like they just took the index datasheets. They did not even bother changing the faction rule to "battle focus" and it still says strands of fate. Super F-ing lame. I mean at least put a little effort into it, if they are even going to pretend that legends are in the game outside of tournament play.

The balance dataslate removes all Aeldari entries. That appears to be the only update in the Balance Dataslate.
If the Legends don't have the updates merged in (I expect they did), they've gone back to original:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-40000/

The Webway Gate is there, so that's nice. That lasted how many editions before becoming Legends?

I have low expectations from legends, but wow. Hope they update that.

Played Aeldari vs Dark Aeldari. Good game, won. I used the wraith unit detachment.

All I can say is my instincts were on point.

Maugan Ra+ 5 reapers on the back line with Ealdrad generating CP.

Fugen+10 dragon in a serpent.

the rest was wraith units and Harlequins in serpents and falcons.

Moments that stuck in my memory:

Ealdrad using mind war on a full wounds Drazhar and squishing his head like a grape on a 5 damage roll. "flex"

Rolling all 7! +5 Maugan Ra Shrapnel rolls for D3 mortals! Holly molly he pulled his weight and then some!

My wraithgaurd with 2 spiritseers got chewed up and spit out. but they did stay alive! ( got 3 heals off ) the spiritseer being targetable inside 12 inch sucks. yea they are -1 to hit now with stealth but still....

falcons deep-strike, serpents did Very well!

I then proceeded to generate more moral wounds that I have ever done in a single game. I would not be surprised if harlequins got another point increase. ( +1 too the wound in melee with a reroll on some of them from falcons. ) I did have 2 wait a turn after the deeps strike for them too charge, but only 1 falcon died, and 1 falcon got too 1 wound. everything else untouched!
I had 3 single harlequin models at one point deal 7 mortal wounds! Each one was a little blender of death!! ( how loor accurate! )

I will be buying more and now running there detachment. I was using the wraith guard detachment but other than the -1D on 1 unit per turn, nothing else really stuck out in my head, maybe ill try it later with the new melee knight.

the harlequins detachment is absolutely broken. Just off the top of my head, a Solitaire blowing his blitz turn 1-2. and then using "staged death" too come back with 1/2 wounds and use Blitz again?


anyway, long story short. I guess I'm a harlequins player now?

I bought Baharroth today, as a treat for successfully pet sitting for nearly a week. Happy aminals, all fed, all fussed. And so I fed and fussed my hobby.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I bought Baharroth today, as a treat for successfully pet sitting for nearly a week. Happy aminals, all fed, all fussed. And so I fed and fussed my hobby.

Did they not have the Phoenix Lords for the frisky puppy or napping kitty shrines? Would have been more appropriate .

Baharroth is on my to-buy list, but I need to carve back the pile of shame a bit before I pick up another PL.

Think you’ll find as the bringer of foods for the lovely small furry things, I was their Exarch for the past few days (possibly Autarch, with the crossing of discipline?), but it’s their Mummy that’s the Phoenix Lord.

I found the harlequins from the old Death Masque box and started assembling them. I built a five clown posse, and converted a troupe master. I have twelve basic clowns unassembled (and some metal ones if I want to use them too), a death jester, a set of two bikes and the star/voidweaver

I'm not sure I can be bothered to build and paint these all, but before I do, how do I actually use these? Assuming they're not run in their own detachment, but to supplement other stuff in some other detachment, what I do with them? Is MSU the way to go? Do they need/like transports? And most importantly how I keep them alive long enough that the get to melee?

Alright, eeked out a Draw this weekend with my Knights vs. Eldar.

I'm not an Eldar player, per say, so please bear with me as I butcher the names/descriptions of units.

My opponent was a blue and yellow dyed in the wool, Iyanden player, who used a Legends Yriel. He seemed really important, so I sent my Assassins (Vindicare and Eversore to deal with him quickly).

I targeted and broke a wave serpent at range and a bunch of fire dragons popped out. They were targeted, and removed.

What I had a lot of trouble with were the Wraighguard with Swords.
They just became glue and stuck to my Armigers.

They had warlocks with them, but not a part of their unit. So those guys were easy to take out to Vindicare shooting. Not sure why they were separated. Seems odd.

I digress. The Eldar player also had Wraith Knights, which being foul xenos mockeries of proper Imperial Knights had to go.

Sadly, they, along with Maugrin-Ra (who sat far away with some other guys and kept peppering my Knights at range and slowly killing them).

I just couldn't dislodge all the Wraithguards from the Objectives. They were the only thing I fought against that didn't seem to be made of wet cardboard.

Sorry for this totally unhelpful report.

But in summary, wraithguard/wraithguard with swords refused to die.

If your opponent has the ability to ignore lone operative, the wraithguards' warlock buddies will die quickly.

I did not see any Harlequins or Guardians in this game. But it was fun going up against a very meaty Eldar force.

Ok, so I got my first game in with the new Dex, and I have to say, it is super fun to play. It is not as bluntly powerful as the index, but that is a good thing. Quote of the game, my opponent declaring, "oh man, more space elf shenanigans".

So I used the warhost (units are below) detachment and played against a Tyrannd force that used invasion fleet, but was build like an unending swarm with multiple units of gaunts, supported by zonethrops, carnifixes, and some other big bugs. We played a normal deployment, (deployment on the long edges of the table) and played the old missions (I don't own the new ones, they were always out of stock, and now I am just going to wait for the next round) which was vital ground. I went first, and the game was over by the top of 5 with me having a commanding lead in the points, and both armies heavily destroyed. Here are my thoughts and the army, detachment and units............

Army Rule- Battle Host: This rule is great. Again, it is not as powerful as the index, but it is so much fun to play. You really need to think about what you are doing when and maximize the most out of what are essentially free movement strats. The army in generally is very kill-y, the data sheets are all pretty strong on their own however, if you just YOLO towards the enemy you will die and die fast (except the Avatar, but more on that later). The army is very fragile, but you can use the "space elf shenanigans" to keep things safe and disrupt the enemy. I am going to use the word "disruptive" a lot when describing the units below.

Detachment, Warhost: As you will see my army is pretty much a mix of everything so none of the specialty detachments would have really added much to my army other than maybe aspect host. However I really like this detachment. I did not find myself needing the extra battle focus token other than turn 1 (although I did make sure to save tokens, and end up not using them which could have been different depending on how my opponent plays). But the extra 1" of movement on the battle host abilities was money. That extra inch really did matter (just ask my wife lol, sorry) several times in the game, especially when it got my warp spiders though a wall, and so UN-targetable. But come for the battle focus, stay for the strats. All of them are excellent. The only one I did not use was the move-shoot-move for infantry, as I never had the right moment. But the return to transport, fall back and shoot/charge, -1 to hit, and super [Sustained Hits] and webway tunnel were all great. I am going to try aspect host with a similar list next time (a bit large aspect units less bikes) and see how the damage boost stacks up against these great strats.

Units
Avatar of Khaine: So he is great, and the only thing in my list that was even remotely tough. The loss of the T12 to T11 is noticeable, but frankly with the half damage, 2+/4++ and 14 wounds, I would rather have him 30 points cheaper as is then the T12. He moved to the center and killed two units of gaunts, the hive tryannt, and a maleceptor. Personally unless you are building into one of the niche detachments, or using lots of warithguard (which then you should be using that detachment) I think he is a must as an anvil for the rest of the armies hammer.

Asuman, leading 5 dire avengers: Ok first the Asuman ability is straight broken. They need to remove either [Devastating Wounds] or [Anti-Infantry 3] because both together is stupid. He eliminated 4 of the zonanthropes with just one round of shooting. And he is really good outside of this anyway, with the move-shoot-move being able to go back to a transport is awesome, his shooting and CC are pretty deadly in their own right. Then the dire avengers are also really really good, expect them to go up in points. With just 5 of them kicking out 24 shoots with sustained if in 12, they will shred anything that is not heavy infantry. My next list is going to use 10 man, but that might be over kill in most situations.

Warwalkers: Yup these are as good as advertised. the -1 ap is always useful even if shooting hoards. There is no reason to ever take them in squads of 2 unless you want more than 3 for some reason, which is why? This is a unit that should probably be more expensive for 1, then less for the second. Also, while on paper it seems like these guys will just being handing out -1 ap where ever, when actually playing I found that there are times when they won't be in position to target the exact unit you want. So be careful when planing strategies around them, and for that reason you probably always want at least 2 if relying on that -1. Now if only you could use the move-shoot-move strat on them they would be outrageous.

5 man fire dragon squad: Again as advertised. They jumped out of their wave serpent and destroyed the carnifexs, with only old one eye surviving, and that was with a pretty bad roll, and he got lucky on the saves of 6 as well. Also once their transport was gone, they die super fast, so yea, pretty much going to kill one maybe two units then they are going to die horribly.

4 man Conclave with a farseer: These guys were in a falcon, so got the re-roll wounds when they jumped out. The 4d6+8 shots S7 ap -1do some heavy damage to infantry, and quite frankly with the re-rolls and some War Walker support would probably be a threat to even larger targets. However, once again the moment they get caught they die swiftly. Also I had a farseer with them, but next time I am just going to run the conclave, as the farseer doesn't add much for 80 points. Also, this build with Eldrad I think would be super deadly to almost everything with his ability to at +1 to wound to the flamer attacks. My TS flamer unit with Ahriman does a similar trick and they are deadly. But Eldrad is 120 points which is a lot, so not sure if worth it.

5 man scorpion squad: This was a great distraction unit early. The scout move with infiltrate is really good and are incredibly disruptive in turn 1. I am not sure if I would do a larger squad however, as they are likely to die as soon as they charge something and kill it (or in this case they did not kill enough gaunts and got clobbered in return)


5 man ranger squad: These are ok for mid board screening, but have no real punch and died swiftly once engaged. I think it is worth the extra points for the scorpions for the forward units. My next list is dropping these.

5 man warp spiders with Autarch: This unit was great. I put a death spinner on the autarch for more d6 shots. The free overwatch from his ability was really good. As for their warp jump, it is definitely not something you are going to use every turn. However, the turn where you need it you are going to love it. I used it turn 2 to put the unit in the back line and attack the home objective. I did lose 2 spiders to MW however, but they were incredibly disruptive. Then I charged his gaunt unit, survived (as they were heavily depleted) and when he fell back, I used battle focus to move, and moved on the other side of a ruin, preventing them from being shot. I then in my turn re-engaged, killed the gaunt squad and then used free overwatch to hurt another, weakening it for its attacks later that turn. I am getting 5 more as I think 10 will be very hard for most lists to deal with jumping around, and this way if I lose a few on my warp jump, they still have some punch. I don't think I will take the autarch with them, the free overwatch is nice, but I think the free CP would be better on the fire dragons to allow them to get back into a transport free, and add one more melta to them (which would have been really helpful in this game). These guys are good.

10 man guardian defenders: well they sat on my home objective hiding, then I used the web gate strat to put them in the back line, but the spiders were dealing with that, so I used the 3" battle focues with and advance and their base 7" move to go a whooping 16" to capture a mid-board objective. Overall they were helpful, but I don't think they are worth 100 points. I think for my next list I am going to use a shadow weaver on the back objective that can indirect, and is 25 points cheaper.

3 man Shining Spears: I love these models and will always use them. They used their quick movement and battle focus to jump across the board and finish old one eye. Then promptly died to shooting. They are cool, and have potential, but I don't think are worth the 120 points, even with the D3 attacks. Their bases are so big it would be hard to engage many things with 6, which would also be 240 points. Realistically, even though I will continue to use them, I don't seem them as particualriy great, other than be a disruption unit that can shoot out from behind cover and hurt or kill a vehicle/monster then promptly die.

3 man shroud runner squad: They fillfulled their role, helping sure up the mid-board early, then falling back to hold the home objective after the guardians warp gated away. The scatter lasers are pretty good when you get a war walker -1 ap on a target. The removal of cover is good, but more situational, and again like the war walker, they are not always in the right position to hand it out where you want it.

6 man windrider squad with shuiken cannons: This unit was ok. The cannons did not really have a good target this game, as they are really designed for killing marines or marine equivalent. If I take them again (I am dropping them for next list) I would try the scatter lasers. I think they will be more useful with the larger range, [Sustained Hits], and double shots as long as I can get a war walker to hand out an -1 ap (need to plan around that).

Falcon- I took it with shuiken cannons. It is good for delieving the conclave with the -reroll wounds, probably also for reapers for the same reason. I don't think the Dragons will get much out of it as they already re-roll, and if you are not shooting a vehicle/monster with them, do you really care. The pulse laser is kind of crap though, not strong enough to really hurt large stuff, but not enough shots to be a threat to medium/heavy infantry. Also the moment this get shot with anything that is even AT adjacent it is going to die.

Waver serpent with cannon and bright lance: In typical fashion I rolled a 1 each time I fired the BL, lol. This thing carried the avengers and dragons, and it is the only thing other than the avatar in the list that is even remotely tough. I think if you are not taking something to really build into the falcon's re-roll (like conclave or reapers) then wave serpents are better.

Overall that is my report. This army is really really fast and disruptive, but you have to have a plan, and think out what you are doing. I also play TS/CSM and those armies you can make a bit of an error but it is ok because most units can weather most attacks, and CSM especially is just move your best units up and kill gak. This army will take thinking, planning and designing the list to support itself and one misstep and gak is gonna die. I love it, it is a challenge and super fun to play. I look forward to other reports.

Sounds like they’re playing “at intended” in terms of background accuracy. The tricks might be frustrating for opponents, but not as frustrating as the Eldar player botching them and watching significant portions of their army go splat.

Also nice to hear that, more or less as I expected, Aspects don’t need their Phoenix Lord to perform well.

I was initially not that keen (and I stand by "don't spam characters"), but finding it hard to see past including Eldrad in a lot of lists. It gets expensive if you think Guardians are bad - but I feel one unit is okay. You could potentially just run him around solo and trust to angles/LOS blocking to ensure he doesn't get sniped. But I think that's something that sounds possible on paper but never really works.

Doom is powerful and mind war can come up - but really I think its the guaranteed bonus CP. Every Eldar detachment has great stratagems, and while getting 3 a turn over 2 isn't a massive uplift, it just means you can do what you want when you want.

Maybe this is a skill/subjective thing - but I often find myself agonizing over whether a command reroll - or say overwatch/grenades/tank shock is worth it when you only get 2 a turn. There's always going to be the question of "how much does it really matter" - on the grounds that every stratagem should be less valuable than the one before but still feel like its good.

Silly example but seeing mechanized guard lists go "I get 2 stratagems a turn." "Oh you are shooting that tank? Okay I pop smoke. Wait... now I only get one stratagem per turn". Kind of sucks.

Interestingely, I've had the exact opposite experience so far.

I'm removing more and more characters from the list, and don't particularly feel the need for extra CP so Eldrad definitely doesn't make the list anymore.
Same goes for most PLs: they're nice, but don't necessarily add that much to the army that another squad of aspects wouldn't do better. Jain Zar is amazing, and adds a good deal of utlity to her unit. Lhykhis is okay, and the rest I essentially only bring when I feel like playing with a cool model. Other than Maugan Ra, who's just plain bad.

I've found Autarchs bring the most to the army. Between the free strat (which you can sort of count as an extra CP), and utility weapons (fusion gun and credible melee punch), they actually make small aspect units pretty scary. Spiders and scorpions go from being really good units to being completely bonkers.

For context, I've been jamming aspect host, and just running max MSU aspect squads plus a mantle of wisdom 10-man reaper blob in a serpent feels best so far. It punches quite hard, and has plenty of units to both effectively screen out reserves and score secondaries.

Jain Zar seems to be the best PL for bringing something that "I'll just take another 5 man Aspect Warrior squad" won't do.

Maugan Ra is... yeah, a bit of a question mark as to why you'd bother. I think I read someone claim it gave the Reapers some melee punch - but that felt like desperation rather than anything you'd ever deliberately go looking for.

I suspect you are right, that in terms of optimisation/competitiveness the extra CP isn't worth it (although subjectively I think more CP=more options=more fun). I think GW tends to overvalue it - especially on units where its a dice roll so may work out anyway. At least Eldrad is guaranteed.

I don't have Jain Zar so not sure about her, but I think that Asurmen is worth while. His move-shoot-move at 6" is really good, especially with being able to get into a transport, this one per game shooting is just straight broken, his regular shooting is pretty strong, especially with [Sustained Hits] from the squad, and his CC is good enough against all but the toughest units. He is just really expensive, so I really count him as two characters when I am figuring out how many characters are needed.

I think Eldrad would be really good with the conclave, giving them +1 on their flamer style attacks would be huge.

Bararath I think could be useful for the up-down move he brings, and getting hawks close, but I am not sold on hawks as they are now, and don't own any and won't buy right now.

Larkasis I think would be good, I don't have her, but I think she costs two much. The 5+ crits are great, but you really need to piece things together to get the most out of that.

I think Eldar MSU will probably be the best way to play, with maybe spiders wanting to be larger. I also think having more than 3 leader type characters is a trap, and quite frankly my list is down to Asurmen, 1 Autarch, and the Avatar.

Hawks I’ve long been sceptical of. But in this one? With support from War Walker fire to get them that crucial -1AP, a squad of 10, farting out on average 5 Mortal Wounds, then their combined firepower is definitely appealing.

Not necessarily game winning on their own, but reliable, safe mobility and sheer weight of firepower appeals.

Maybe add in a Shroud Runner to deny the enemy the benefit of Cover, and against light to medium, heavy in a pinch with some luck and a fair wind, and they can really hoof it out.

Tyel wrote:
Jain Zar seems to be the best PL for bringing something that "I'll just take another 5 man Aspect Warrior squad" won't do.

Maugan Ra is... yeah, a bit of a question mark as to why you'd bother. I think I read someone claim it gave the Reapers some melee punch - but that felt like desperation rather than anything you'd ever deliberately go looking for.

I suspect you are right, that in terms of optimisation/competitiveness the extra CP isn't worth it (although subjectively I think more CP=more options=more fun). I think GW tends to overvalue it - especially on units where its a dice roll so may work out anyway. At least Eldrad is guaranteed.

I find your take on Jain interesting. While she's done great work in my games so far, she also seems like she changes the role/behavior of the unit less than most of the phoenix lords.

Asurmen lets your avengers be guerilla fighters, avoiding retaliation. Baharroth gives you a way to safely deliver grenade attacks and makes hawks better at scoring secondaries. Lhykis makes spiders a viable melee unti where an exarch alone wouldn't be, plus she sets up other units in your army for crits meaning she has some anti-deathstar abilities. Maugan kind of doesn't fit in with his squad at all and serves a very different role, but that also means he isn't doing the job you'd take extra reapers for. Fuegan probably has the second most overlap with his unit, but he's also turning his squad into a B-tier melee threat which opens up options like charging an enemy unit to try and hide from retaliation.

Jain is great, but she kind of just makes a melee blender unit blend harder. The speed boost is nice, but basically just makes your existing mechanics more reliable. She does bring a little shooting to the unit, but that shooting mostly wants to go after the same targets you would already go after; unlike Fuegan who makes you surprisingly good against non-vehicles and keeps you from getting tarpitted if you go into melee.

I’m struggling to figure out my Aspect builds, but feel that MAU is the way to go. I need to get a second dragon unit and will probably add more reapers at some point. Definitely agree that less PLs is better but the models are too cool to lose out completely.
Maugan Ra needs to have his rule changed so that he gives auto D3 MWs to the target unit and on a 5+ to those within 3”, and allow him to do that to different units than what the reapers shoot. It’s a terrible rule.
I’m also trying to figure out how to equip my Spider Exarch. With Lhykhis I’m definitely going power blade array but not sure ona second unit as they probably aren’t seeing combat as often.

For spiders, I think the basic exarch spinner is probably the way to go for units that aren't going out of their way to get into melee. That said, I've only used the powerblade + weaver combo so far (old models), and those work out well enough. It's just frustrating to lose out on the exarch's shots when you're out of range, but the powerblades are pretty decent if you want to tackle weakened enemy units.

 xeen wrote:
this one per game shooting is just straight broken, his regular shooting is pretty strong

It's strong, but far from broken. Into effective targets (i.e.: terminators or custodes that don't have access to -1 D or FNP) it's amazing. Outside of that, it's just strong. And when you start to think about the whole package (Asurmen + DAs + transport), it's a lot of points. DAs just aren't good, even with all the shots they have now. I started with 2x10 a couple of weeks ago, now I'm down to 5 with Asurmen in a Falcon. They just don't do enough for me, and are now an Asurmen delivery vehicle.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Jain is great, but she kind of just makes a melee blender unit blend harder.

For me, Jain Zar is the obviously best PL. She doesn't just make her unit blend harder, she makes min unit blend hard enough to ensure they take out their target. Five banshees is not quite enough, ten is overkill (and hard to hide). Five + a character is just what you need. Jain also adds amazing utility to the unit to ensure they do what they need to do. Auto advancing 6" is silly good, and everyone seems to ignore the whole 'ignore vertical distance' part - which is also incredibly good if you're playing on any terrrain layout that's not just ruins or have to take down a unit on the top floor of a building. She's also cheap, which is nice.

 bullyboy wrote:

I’m also trying to figure out how to equip my Spider Exarch.

Spinneret rifle + death weavers. Just getting more shots is exactly what this units wants.


Re: PLs (in the context of aspect host): Jain Zar is an auto take for me. She's just so good. Lhykhis is almost a guaranteed take, since she adds so much utility to the army. Asurmen is great, and I'll likely take him in many lists, but could end up getting cut for more efficient threats. Fuegan is absolutely borderline, and likely to just not make it anymore, since i'd rather just take another unit of dragons. Baharroth and Maugan Ra just aren't good enough currently IMHO.

Radium wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Jain is great, but she kind of just makes a melee blender unit blend harder.

For me, Jain Zar is the obviously best PL. She doesn't just make her unit blend harder, she makes min unit blend hard enough to ensure they take out their target. Five banshees is not quite enough, ten is overkill (and hard to hide). Five + a character is just what you need. Jain also adds amazing utility to the unit to ensure they do what they need to do. Auto advancing 6" is silly good, and everyone seems to ignore the whole 'ignore vertical distance' part - which is also incredibly good if you're playing on any terrrain layout that's not just ruins or have to take down a unit on the top floor of a building. She's also cheap, which is nice.

This sums my view up.

You can't get the same functionality by just taking two squads of 5 or one squad of 10 Banshees. Admittedly as said the vertical movement matters a lot less if all terrain is treated as ruins and there are never any upper floors to stand on. But that's not how everyone plays.

There are perhaps unconsidered options. I've never thought about/seen anyone treat say Fuegan as a "melee" unit that just happens to have high damage shooting. Take an Exarch with a Fire Axe and go at it.
But I just think I'd prefer to have two units of Fire Dragons that can hide behind ruins and then jump out to hose down vehicles/monsters/3 wound infantry as required.

But I think philosophically there's a big difference in how you play with "few big expensive units" and "MSU". So you can sometimes end up talking past each other. Just like how your list building will be very different if your core strategy is "I'm going to play a complex trading game" vs "I'm going to blob up on the objectives and see if they can counter that." (Not sure the second is viable for Eldar, but if money/time was no object I'd be tempted to try some mass-Guardian list.)

The GW I play most of my games at has mostly ruins and not much else. Sometimes shipping containers. So the vertical movement thing hasn't really come up for me yet. I had a single game where some devastators were on the roof of a ruin, but I wasn't quite close enough to safely close the distance, and then Jain's unit had to turn around to kill some deepstrikers.

Personally, I haven't found it very difficult to hide 10-girl squads of banshees, so they've been a perfectly viable unit on their own so far. But like I said, Jain has performed great. She just doesn't really change how a unit behaves or what targets it goes after so much as she just makes them do what they were already doing a bit better.

I've definitely seen discussion (pre codex) about lobbing 60-120 guardian defenders/stormies onto no man's land while using wave serpents to keep the enemy screened out for a few turns. The consensus was that it was probably viable, but also super boring and unfluffy.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I've definitely seen discussion (pre codex) about lobbing 60-120 guardian defenders/stormies onto no man's land while using wave serpents to keep the enemy screened out for a few turns. The consensus was that it was probably viable, but also super boring and unfluffy.

Its certainly unfluffy - although only to some definition of fluff. Arguably Guardians exist for a reason, and some times the Craftworld would have to send them in. I could be the NPC faction that gets annihilated in so many Black Library books...

But I don't know about "boring". I mean is it more or less boring than doing the same with mass Guard infantry, Cultists, Gaunts etc?

I think the issue is whether Guardians are "cheap enough". For whatever 2-3 units of Storm Guardians are doing, are you better trading up to take some Scorpions, Banshees or even Wraithblades etc? Same with regular Guardians versus shooting alternatives. Higher OC is nice - but its not as if clearing these off objectives is that tough even with the -1 wound strat etc. Whereas say Guard in Recon element can push the basic guy to a 3+ save at two thirds or so the price (plus characters I guess).

As said its academic. Have the same thoughts of Tau running 120 breachers/fire warriors. Which I assume someone somewhere has tried and concluded doesn't work as the breachers just get jumped and nuked.

I would love to try the guardian detachment, but I just don't have the models or anywhere close. It seems like it would be fun, and supports war walkers, which are good, and dire avengers (one squad with Asumen would be definitely in). That is the problem with most of the Eldar detachments though, they are very niche to the units that use them. I mean image the collection you would need to really go all in on all of them. But if I was going to put down some $$$ to build out my army, the guardian detachment would be the one I would go with.

I would probably go with the one full squad of dire avengers lead by Asurmen in wave serpent, 6 war walkers, one with scatter/BL and the other both with BL, like 4 squads of guardian defenders in wave serpents with BL, probably my falcon with the conclave (it supports itself) maybe some indirect in the backfield, then if any points are left maybe fireprisms? But I also play TS and they should be coming soon, so probably just a pipe dream for this

Tyel wrote:
Its certainly unfluffy - although only to some definition of fluff. Arguably Guardians exist for a reason, and some times the Craftworld would have to send them in. I could be the NPC faction that gets annihilated in so many Black Library books...

Needing to send in the guardians is definitely a thing. The unfluffy part is when your plan for them is to just throw them into the meat grinder like they're guardsmen instead of taking steps to protect/support them. It would be equally unfluffy to do the same with aspect warriors if they were the cheaper/better meat for the blender.

But I don't know about "boring". I mean is it more or less boring than doing the same with mass Guard infantry, Cultists, Gaunts etc?

I mean. I feel like *I'd* be bored playing that style of list. And I say that as someone who fields a decent number of gaunts in lower points games. But YMMV.

xeen wrote:I would love to try the guardian detachment, but I just don't have the models or anywhere close. It seems like it would be fun, and supports war walkers, which are good, and dire avengers (one squad with Asumen would be definitely in). That is the problem with most of the Eldar detachments though, they are very niche to the units that use them. I mean image the collection you would need to really go all in on all of them.

I don't know. Aspect warriors are good enough in a vacuum that I think they all pretty much work when you splash them into a non-aspect host army. So if you want a solid core of guardians and war walkers but don't want to just spam those units and nothing else, you could probably fit in some dragons and banshees or whatever and do just fine. It does feel like there's a certain critical mass of guardians/walkers/avengers needed in the guardian host in order to reliably be able to take advantage of a lot of their strats, but if you find yourself without a target for your detachment strats, there's always good old grenades and tank shock and such.

But I haven't gotten around to actually playing the guardian host yet.

This evening, I have mostly been building models.

Finished the first box of Swooping Hawks, a squad of Warp Spiders and Baharroth.

Warp Spiders were a pleasant surprise. They looked horrific, lots of bits and that. But they went together like a charm.

The Deathspinners have four points of contact, and sit really nicely. The fourth is the left arm, which goes on last.

Swooping Hawks are also impressive, and there’s a decent number of arms to avoid repetition in full sized squads, which is always welcome.

I haven't seen anyone mention Wraith Knights, are they not worth the points this go around?