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Seen a few discussions over how the space wolves will be redone and whether they will be blood angels'ed (losing stuff with few redos) or get a big faction sized release.

What do you think? Thunderwolves have tiny marines riding them, would they stay, or get dumped or even get redone with giant wolves and giant marines?

Will they upgrade sprue the hunters and claws. or release full units for each one?

Interested to hear what you think will happen as the wolves are the most problematic (primaris wise) of the chapters and would require a huge amount of work to just redo them as is, let alone add anything.

My guess is some of both.

I think they lose a ton of characters.

I don't know if Logan Grimnar gets upsized and loses his Chariot, or becomes Chariot only.

I think Njall gets upsized to new Terminator size.

I think Ulrich the Slayer crosses the Rubicon.

I don't think the Dreadnaughts change armor yet, but Bjorn is going to be a Redemptor with a Brutalis Claw Arm pretty soon.

Murderfang I'm guessing 60/40 goes away now, or goes full Brutalis later on.

The assorted units like the Hunters, Assorted Claws and Wolf Scouts probably update to their new counterpart both in kit and rules - then get wolfy from the Wolf Upgrade sprue similar to the Deathwing Terminators (Plasma Cannon and decorative bits) is in the Upgrade sprue - their kits may stay special packages with the sprue included or you may have to buy both separately I don't know.

They lose their Terminator Lieutenant Wolf Guard.

Wolf Guard Terminator Squad probably gets a new kit.

Boils down to - I think they lose a lot of blisters, gain very little entirely new stuff, but a lot of their old stuff is replaced with an old-but-new kit plus a new sprue.

I'm personally hoping for upsized marines on really extremely massive wolves, because I think that would be hilarious.

More seriously, I'm not sure how Wolves will fit into the Primaris paradigm. It used to be that many of the Wolf units were Marine+ - wolf scouts being veterans instead of initiates, long fangs being the ancients who were better devastators than devastators, and then Wolf Claws and Grey Hunters as unit, melee focused alternatives to tacticals.

How much of all of that really still exists in the modern paradigm? Primaris chapters are organised completely differently, so none of the differences that Wolves have to the old Codex Astartes really matter as much any more, or at least, they don't make sense. So they're left with a choice - do the highly traditionalist Wolves change their paradigm to adapt to the new ways handed down from another Primarch, or do they soft retcon the background to make it as though the Primaris have sort of always been there don't think about it?

I suspect the latter course, resulting in slightly unsatisfying background. Doing something radical like the Wolves all remaining Firstborn out of stubborn traditionalism would be more in character I think - we're talking about an army that didn't use certain high tech stuff because of superstition but they're gonna accept Primarisizing their entire chapter?

Because the Blue Boys told them to? When have the Wolves ever listened to Bobby G?

New Wulfen are needed.

Imo it would be in keeping for them to take some of the new things they like and ignore the rest.

Like long fangs might think desolator launchers are a good option (gross) so you get two long fang squads. Grey hunters might consider taking hellblasters as a second load out option.

But the heavy intercessors don't really fit the wolves style so they may decide that they just pass on those.

Given the way they've been doing all the marine armies though, the chances of them restricting the wolf army list is probably small.

I'm also in the "The Return of the Russ" camp.

Seeing as how distinctive the SW are I'm hoping for a bigger refresh than either DA or BA.

I'm very worried about how my extensive SW collection is going to fare; considering how GW treated Assault Marines, Land Speeders, non-primaris SM Bike & Assault Bikes, etc...

I'm not sure if Russ will return in 10th, I see him as an 11th Edition reveal... maybe with some new Wulfen models in tow.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I'm not sure if Russ will return in 10th, I see him as an 11th Edition reveal... maybe with some new Wulfen models in tow.

I'm not sure HOW Russ will return. Normally they would "re"-introduce the Primarchs through the Summer Campaign as some sort of story arc. Now in theory Fulgrim is just going to show up in his new Codex? And Russ in his Codex? Is it going to land with a thud or a clank?

Breton wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I'm not sure if Russ will return in 10th, I see him as an 11th Edition reveal... maybe with some new Wulfen models in tow.

I'm not sure HOW Russ will return. Normally they would "re"-introduce the Primarchs through the Summer Campaign as some sort of story arc. Now in theory Fulgrim is just going to show up in his new Codex? And Russ in his Codex? Is it going to land with a thud or a clank?

They might still be in a summer campaign we don't know about.

Fulgrim might be released along the beginning of the campaign with Russ returning at the end.

Just a possibility, as I have nothing to base this on but speculation.

It will huff and puff and cost more than your house down.

Thunderwolves replaced with hunting companions on the base seems most sensible with a version of Logan doing the same.

They certainly have the most to lose so I'll be curious what gets the resculpt to stay.

I'm not sure how much it'll affect my Greymanes, given that:

A.) I'm drawing on Anglo-Saxon rather than Norse inspirations, aesthetically and lore-wise.

B.) I don't really imitate the primogenitor chapter in terms of organizational structure.

Russ would be nice, I guess. Maybe if the bits or units really knock my socks off, I'll sprinkle a few in.

IMO I hope that they move away from the literal wolves aesthetic and more towards viking/norse theme with wolf influence.

 LunarSol wrote:
It will huff and puff and cost more than your house down.

Thunderwolves replaced with hunting companions on the base seems most sensible with a version of Logan doing the same.

They certainly have the most to lose so I'll be curious what gets the resculpt to stay.

When they first released the cavalry, this was how I was intending to model them - maybe with a dude on bike and the wolf running alongside. Never got around to making a unit because 40k entered its Matt Ward phase around that time and it stopped being fun.



Pet wolves or hunting wolves running alongside them is totally onbrand. Riding them is cringe and it was cringe at the time they were released. They just kept doubling down on it with the sleigh....And yet they were trying to make a big space opera out of the heresy and left the space wolves with the cringiest concepts while they super seriously enhanced every other chapter with cool 'mature' concepts. But GW and the BL authors decided that they should just keep treating the wolves as cringy as possible, as some kind of punching bag or something.

I'm not a fan of tipping everything to the pure viking aesthetic either - wolves are central to the space wolves both in terms of their culture and iconography, but literally the spirituality of the whole planet. They have a pantheon of wolf spirits that are central to the fenrisian identity.

It is entirely possible to remove the cringe without removing the wolves and it's not even that difficult. GW just has a hard time with it for some reason.

I think Thunderwolf Cavalry are cool.
They’re silly, but in an over the top way. That feels 40k to me.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm personally hoping for upsized marines on really extremely massive wolves, because I think that would be hilarious.

No they need to make the marines bigger but the wolves smaller, to further emphasize how big the marines are.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think Thunderwolf Cavalry are cool.
They’re silly, but in an over the top way. That feels 40k to me.

If everything else maintained an equal level of camp then sure. But it makes the wolves stand out from the space marines at large because it's so cartoony and camp. For whatever reason they've decided to make marines more serious and less ott, but the wolves have retained the most cringe and campy elements, which just sets them up for ridicule in a way no other chapter receives.

It didn't occur to me that they might bring back Leman Russ. That would solve the issues because Russ could just tell his boys "Bobby is right lads, let's adopt all his ideas now!" and they'd obviously accept it.

I mean the Lion was like "Lads the Fallen are actually good guys, they've been with me the whole time nbd!" so I think it's not far fetched.

Yuck! I wonder how many of these stupid primarchs they're gonna bring back, until 40K and 30K are only superficially different.

It would be a pretty massive change of identity for the chapter if they dropped all their uniqueness to conform to the new paradigm.

When blood angels and dark angels were first enshrined with army lists in second ed, they were 99% identical to a codex chapter.

BA had unique assault veterans and death company, but had no other unique units - just renamed sanguinary priests instead of apothecaries.

DA had deathwing terminators and ravenwing bikers/speeders (with their own unique rules and not just renamed) and lost vet marines because no vet DA went into battle in power armour.

But the wolves had completely different units and weapon loads.

The latest DA and BA army lists have more or less maintained that almost codex appearance, albeit with a few extra unique units. But the majority of their units are codex compliant.



Turning the wolves into a furry motif codex chapter would be a massive change. Not that I can't see GW doing it, but it would definitely be a pretty big departure.

 Da Boss wrote:

Yuck! I wonder how many of these stupid primarchs they're gonna bring back, until 40K and 30K are only superficially different.

40k and 30k will always be more than superficially different because 40k will always include Xenos factions, Sisters and other factions rather than focusing primarily on marines, who are boring as stink due to their ubiquity, vs. OTHER marines, who are mostly differentiated from Loyalists by paint jobs and rules rather than than the cool modelling cues of 40k era CSM which actually make them LOOK meaningfully different.

And yes, I know 30k also has Custodes, Admech/Darkmech and Guard, but the ENTIRE narrative is driven by Marine vs. Marine, and everyone else is just an ally. I do begrudge the game somewhat, because I'd rather se ALL of the design space and release slots go to 40k, but at the same time I'm grateful for it because I will use a plastic Arvus, and a plastic Spartan for the Chambers Militant of the Inquisition, who are still interesting to me DESPITE being Marines. There are also some sweet 30k guard tanks that still have 40k Legends cards too.

So I hate the game for the potential that it it takes from 40k, but I still like it enough for what little it gives us that CAN be used in 40k.

ANd yes, that's a tangent from the Wolves, so to bring it back to topic, I think huge snarling plastic wolves could look really cool EVEN if Primaris Marines were riding them, though I would also get behind the hunting wolf concept. And to those who think that unit and the Wolf sled are the things that make the ENTIRE RANGE somehow cartoony, I guess my simple solution would be don't buy the two units you think are problematic?

I genuinely don't know enough about Space Wolves to speculate on why that solution isn't immediately obvious? Are those two problematic units just so good that they're auto-include for competitive minded folks?

 Da Boss wrote:
It didn't occur to me that they might bring back Leman Russ. That would solve the issues because Russ could just tell his boys "Bobby is right lads, let's adopt all his ideas now!" and they'd obviously accept it.

I mean the Lion was like "Lads the Fallen are actually good guys, they've been with me the whole time nbd!" so I think it's not far fetched.

Yuck! I wonder how many of these stupid primarchs they're gonna bring back, until 40K and 30K are only superficially different.

Ragnar already crossed the Rubicon. The differences are pretty much indistinct now. Terminators were upsized and are theoretically now mixed Primaris and First born. Changing Grey Hunters from a seperate box to a box of Intercessors and decorative bits from a sprue isn't going to do much at this point but unify the size of the models.

The challenge is how they decide to divide the new units up against their chapter ranks.

A long fang is an age rank and they have unique shooting skills due to their age. But that also means that they're not going to be centurions or aggressors or eradicators, because they sit at the back picking targets because they're old grumblers.

Grey hunters don't use heavy weapons.

The long fang pack marking (white and black) has been coopted for particular load outs in some modern primaris graphics, but it's not consistent with what a Long Fang specifically is.

Arguably almost all new units will have to be grey hunters, because it's not in keeping with the wolves that their hotheads or old men take on those roles.

Plus Fenris already got an influx of Primaris Space Wolves from Bobby G (who were trained with and fought in mixed chapter units).

So the culture probably isn't as strong in the new guys.

 Hellebore wrote:
The challenge is how they decide to divide the new units up against their chapter ranks.

A long fang is an age rank and they have unique shooting skills due to their age. But that also means that they're not going to be centurions or aggressors or eradicators, because they sit at the back picking targets because they're old grumblers.

Grey hunters don't use heavy weapons.

The long fang pack marking (white and black) has been coopted for particular load outs in some modern primaris graphics, but it's not consistent with what a Long Fang specifically is.

Arguably almost all new units will have to be grey hunters, because it's not in keeping with the wolves that their hotheads or old men take on those roles.

I figure its all a progression. Space Wolves still have their progression, but they do it somewhat backwards. UM do Scouts -> Devs -> Assaults -> Tacs. Space Wolves start as Assaults (Not necessarily jump pack Assaults aka Skyclaws but Blood Claws) then Grey Hunters then Long Fangs and Wolf Scouts. It could just be a matter of inserting "sub-phases" for lack a better word on the progression of an individual Wolf. Blood Claws are unlikely to change much beyond the armor mark. You'll just make them with Assault Intercessors + Wolf bits. Grey Hunters will be similar, just Intercessors + wolf Bits. The specialist armor options could be younger Long Fangs, Older Grey Hunters, or Grump Old Men Long Fangs who want to get some Clobberin' Time. Phobos units will stay phobos units and like Grey Hunters donning Phobos armor for a one-off mission - potentially the ones headed towards Wolf Scouts or just exercising a special role in Temporary Detached Duty.

 Hellebore wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think Thunderwolf Cavalry are cool.
They’re silly, but in an over the top way. That feels 40k to me.

If everything else maintained an equal level of camp then sure. But it makes the wolves stand out from the space marines at large because it's so cartoony and camp. For whatever reason they've decided to make marines more serious and less ott, but the wolves have retained the most cringe and campy elements, which just sets them up for ridicule in a way no other chapter receives.

I don’t think so. If anything I find loyalist Marines today even more cartooney than Wolf wolves. Desolators, Suppressors, Combat Cart, Reivers, even the Hellblasters have comically large weapons. Redemptor dread looks even worse than murderfang. Floaty brick tanks look more stupid to me than Thunderwolves or Wulfen. The quite terrible smurf blue they're always presented with doesn't help.
I'm not hating on "nu 40k" here, on the contrary, the ridiculousness is the fun part of 40K and it shouldn't be reserved to Orks.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think Thunderwolf Cavalry are cool.
They’re silly, but in an over the top way. That feels 40k to me.

If everything else maintained an equal level of camp then sure. But it makes the wolves stand out from the space marines at large because it's so cartoony and camp. For whatever reason they've decided to make marines more serious and less ott, but the wolves have retained the most cringe and campy elements, which just sets them up for ridicule in a way no other chapter receives.

I don’t think so. If anything I find loyalist Marines today even more cartooney than Wolf wolves. Desolators, Suppressors, Combat Cart, Reivers, even the Hellblasters have comically large weapons. Redemptor dread looks even worse than murderfang. Floaty brick tanks look more stupid to me than Thunderwolves or Wulfen. The quite terrible smurf blue they're always presented with doesn't help.
I'm not hating on "nu 40k" here, on the contrary, the ridiculousness is the fun part of 40K and it shouldn't be reserved to Orks.

Giant nerf guns don't really hold the same disdain in the community as being a furry (the discussion over the need for all social groups to pick on one of them just to feel better is another matter).

The Thunderwolves still do look better than the Centurians.

Hopefully they bring back the Wolf Heads. Everyone loved those... right?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Hopefully they bring back the Wolf Heads. Everyone loved those... right?

They're good in moderation. That's always been the flaw in SW bits. There was little moderation.

Breton wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Hopefully they bring back the Wolf Heads. Everyone loved those... right?

They're good in moderation. That's always been the flaw in SW bits. There was little moderation.

Agreed. I quite liked the classic space wolf captain model from 1st ed, which is where that wolf head shaped helm came from. But it was a single model with a unique helmet, not a whole squad...