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How do!

So I figured this might prove an interesting one.

The Imperium as it stands is an odd fish. It stands more or less united against a hostile galaxy. And it’s done so through faith in the Emperor and its near endless armies for 10,000 years. It’s testament to unbreakable spirit of man that despite its many flaws, it’s still there, and still giving at least as good as it gets.

Yet, it seems to do so with no plan grander than “back tomorrow for more of the same”. Everything it does, is seemingly done by rote. And a good chunk of the responsibility for that mess could be laid at Guilliman’s feet with his Codex Astartes, Second Founding and the separating out of its varying armed forces into deliberately interdependent elements, no one of which on its own can be anything like the existential threat Horus and his wayward Brothers and their sons proved.

At the time I think that was the right move. And certainly back then, Guilliman couldn’t really have foreseen the rise and utter dominance of the Ecclesiarchy.

But that’s long since done, and as a result? There’s not enough centralisation of effort to properly engage and shatter major threats. What follows is an awful lot easier said than done, but hear me out. Orks? Right now, you just need to bump of Ghaz and Nazdreg. They’ll then do what Orks do. And especially in Ghaz’s forces, where he’s subjugated a massive number of once were Warbosses? That fallout could be catastrophic for Orks. Chaos? Abaddon is such a lynchpin. Remove him from the board, and Chaos’s fractitious and self serving nature may reduce the threat. And frankly, had the Crusade forces of old still existed, both of those threats could’ve been long, long since removed.

I mean, second war for Armageddon? Planet full of Orks in dire need of a good killing? Absolute chicken feed to the Legions.

Yet as I said? That’s all long since done. And The Imperium, rarely if ever the most forward looking institution has had thousands of years of no particularly united oversight, instead running around like a headless chicken putting out fire after fire, and it’s still survived, endured, and even expanded, despite its staggering inefficiency. It’s so resistant to change at pretty much every level, righting that course is the work of generations.

There are of course individuals of quite staggering power and authority. You’ve the High Lords right at the tippy top, Planetary Governors, Fleet Admirals, Regimental Commanders, Chapter Masters, Inquisitors, Fabricator Locums and so on and so forth. All quite happy with their lot, and cautious about risking the security of their charges, and with it their jobs. So even Guilliman and The Lion, literal son’s of The Emperor, myths made flesh and returned to the fold, can’t just say “Right, stop that, it’s silly. Very silly indeed. You don’t wanna do it like that, you wanna do like this, or else”. To do so would be to risk dissent, rebellion and just sort of smearing it about the place rather than getting it nice and clean. Like using Izal toilet paper.

And frankly? I just don’t think it can be done. It’s not just set in its ways, it’s ingrained into its very fabric. A delicate internal balance of power, pacts, favours and threats. And there’s just….way too much of it to be able to start chipping away. At least, without removing some or all of the many, many threats it faces everyday.

But what do you reckon? Is there hope? Can it be set on a more efficient course?

Part of what makes good grim-dark in my view, is that there is hope. The Imperium has vast resources and with the right changes in the right places it could turn things around. Even if they had to take losses they could turn the tide of war; they could recover; they could succeed.



And the same is true of the other factions too. Orcs could have that biggest WAaaagh ever; Eldar could rise to power once again; Necrons could obliterate everything; Tyranids could eat everyone; Chaos could shed its shacks and tame the demons; Tau could unite enough worlds to start a steamroller effect etc...


Basically each faction has potential. Some more than others for sure; but each one could win it big. Several already did in their day and could do so again.

I agree with most of it... not every faction could win it all. Some aren't set up to take large chunks of the galaxy and set up fiefdoms. (ie. Dark Eldar or Leagues of Votann).

I look at some of the Emperor's prophecies and wonder about Magnus on the Golden Throne leading a united Mankind destroying all threats to the Imperium.

There is always hope in 40k, but sometimes the solution is worse than the problem.

Even Dark Eldar or Votann could do it.

Unlike bigger (numerically and military speaking) factions who could turn things around very quickly; the smaller factions could still have a chance. So they'd take longer, but taking advantage of the chaos the Imperium is in - leveraging advanced technologies (and no fear or developing and using them); alliances (Dark Eldar could ally and twist many craftworlders to their cause over time etc..) and so on and they could do it.

The hope is that the Imperium would be overthrown and replaced with a sensible rule that is not causing the Warp to sour on a galactic scale.

There is no hope in the Imperium's victory, because it's a villainous faction.

That’s the thing, should we want the imperium to be saved, it’s an horrific regime and we should want it to fail, humanity on the other hand should have some hope, a glimmer. That’s why I like the star child prophecies from 1st edition, humanity had salvation at its finger tips but the imperium would do all it could to stop that from happening, it was tragic.

Chaos is the only thing that can save IoM.. but is their cure better than the disease? These are the evergreen themes from Nemesis The Warlock, that still keep me pondering..

I wish the background writers could have kept a bit more of the Nemesis style of Chaos. Not always nice, sometimes pretty nasty, but not pure insanity and evil that you'd have to be a fool to choose.

It's fine for that to be the POV of Imperial characters, who would be horrified by such things as critical thinking and freedom from hierarchy, but for it to be in universe fact is pretty depressingly one note for a supposedly deep setting. One of the worst things about the Horus Heresy series is how it basically states conclusively that the Traitors are definitely in the wrong and deluded and Very Bad Men. I mean the writing had been on the wall for a LONG time before that, but it was really layered on thick at the end of the Siege books I thought.

I remember being so disappointed that the Black Crusade RPG books were so light on exploring why people might turn to chaos, the benefits and advantages of it compared to being part of the Imperium and was much more "Oh, you can play an EVIL CAMPAIGN!" like yeah, I was already doing that in Dark Heresy, how is this different?

Eh, Chaos has always been presented as a False Promise.

Rise Up! Overthrow Your Overlords! Become Master of your Own Destiny which is now eternal damnation. Throw off your shackles! What’s that? No, those are shackles of oppression. Them are bad. These are…em…Chunky Fun Braclets! Why not see how many of your friends you can entangle forever in your Chunky Fun Bracelets! Horrific ever lasting torment Fun for all the family!

Angron is probably the most interesting example, as all through his miserable existence he’s simply been enslaved and used by a Master for that Master’s own gain.

But the same is true right down to the lowest most snivelling Yes Man of a no-mark Cultist.

Chaos doesn’t, hasn’t, and never, ever will care about its adherents. Sure, some will be made Daemon Princes. But only so they continue to be a slave forever more. Which isn’t really much of a reward, is it? Sure you might bag a few days, weeks, months, years of glory and flesh based power. But, eventually? It’s soul eating time. And that’s you done.

I'm saying that is disappointing and one dimensional is all.

But it’s the truth of the situation.

Chaos corrupts, because the entities providing your borrowed power are insane.

If we look to Realms of Chaos? They give out their gifts Willy Nilly. That a gift might be a debilitating mutation isn’t considered. You did well. You got your gift. And all the gifts are seen as equal. Sure, you got the Face Of Michael Gove and A Ferret In Place Of A Leg, and Big Mental Dave got Iron Hard Skin. You’re still twice as blessed as Big Mental Dave.

We also see Chaos’ self destructive nature. The game is for One God To Win. Sure, advancing your interests may lead to alliances of varying duration and number of participants. But as soon as one god sees a chance to advance themselves? They take it, and it all starts falling apart again, as their followers are encouraged and even outright compelled to start duking it out.

Which is where Abaddon comes in. Whilst blessed by all the Big Four? He’s not entirely aligned. He’s not a True Believer in the way say, Lorgar is.

To Abaddon, Chaos is just a useful tool. A means to an end. That he enjoys equal favour allows him to act fairly independently, whilst being able to command others, or kill enough of them until the rest get the hint.

And so, perhaps uniquely in certainly the scope of his authority, he can keep people pulling in mostly the same direction.

Take him out, permanently, and it starts to fracture, as there’s really no one else to take up his mantle.

It's just disappointing that GW chose to make that the truth rather than a more nuanced outlook inspired by Nemesis the Warlock or Moorcock. It would be more interesting if Chaos was less of an obviously terrible choice.

When I first got into 40k, an in-universe quote on their website stated that the Imperium was beset by foes on all sides, but that "a new dawn will rise and we will triumph", or something like that. Nowadays I'm no longer seeing this idea of salvation for humankind, even in a grimdark, human-supremacist way. Where has it gone? Do people in the Imperium still hope and pray for the Emperor's return? I can hardly recall the last time I saw an in-universe allusion to the notion that the Emperor might one day awaken from his coma and resume his reign.

Mind, we know the Emperor's return will never happen within the time frame of the setting, but surely it must be a central tenet of Imperial faith. A light at the end of the tunnel.


Re: Chaos: No, it cannot "save" humanity. At best, it might prevent humanity's annihilation by a third party (like the tyranids), but only to preserve its sustenance. It's just not in Chaos' nature to seek peace and stability. As shown by its symbol (an eight-pointed star), Chaos is pulling in all directions simultaneously. The Traitor Legions and their cultists have had 10,000 years to build a stable and prosperous society, and as far as I am aware, none have succeeded... if they were even trying in the first place. The Dark Gods thrive in the kind of world where there is only war and where people are commonly reduced to their most survival-oriented emotions and urges.

It's a bit of a paradox, given how change is part of the very nature of Chaos, but the status quo of the 40k universe suits Chaos just fine. Endless bloodshed for Khorne, endless scheming and betrayal for Tzeentch, endless despair and decay for Nurgle, endless unfulfilled desires for Slaanesh. If one of the Dark Gods were to triumph utterly over humankind and his brethren, he would be like the dog that caught the car.

.

I'm not its Chaos winning, but one single Agent of Chaos.

The Emperor made it clear that the Golden Throne was for Magnus and the Emperor said that there was a future where Magnus sat upon the throne and Humanity wins against everybody.

For Chaos to work you have to go full grimdark: humanity is doomed to be daemon chow regardless of what it does, and if it is doomed to be daemon chow, then what is the harm in getting to be on the side of the daemons? Worse thing that may happen was going to happen anyway.

At the very least, that's probably how Chaos characters should be written. They know they were always doomed, so they embraced doom.

Yeah, I'm usually on the side of: imagine how bad the Imperium is when there are people willingly turning to Chaos to be saved from the Imperium. Yes, they aren't in the end, but the Imperium isn't saving humanity either, it's just as bad. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos for most should be in that the one slave Lord shoots you when you grow a tentacle and the other one shoots you because your tentacle has the wrong color.

The only salvation for humanity could come in the form of a Tau Eldar alliance ruling supreme that doesn't get annoyed by their ugly human auxiliaries falling to Chaos again and again. Humans are the Tolkien orcs of 40K though and when the free people won in the lotr they realized at some point there was no way to civilize the orcs and all of them were killed.

Really depends what you mean by 'salvation'.

I think it could be maintained and reformed under Guilliman, provided he has enough allies. The kind of total war that they're fighting actually means he has much more of an opportunity to cut the red tape and make sure it stays cut than he would if he'd emerged in peacetime not-as-total-wartime. People need to have direction in a time of crisis. After the crisis has died down he and his allies just need to make sure the changes stick and that the Imperium is more organised and sensible. The Imperium has changed over time, after all-admittedly the last major reform was that of St Thor, and the status quo from that has lasted for about as long as our entire civilisation, but change is possible in response to a sufficient crisis, and I think 'half the galaxy is missing and we are being attacked on all sides by unprecedentedly massive enemies but the son of God has returned to lead us' counts as sufficient.

Kittycatcastle wrote:
Really depends what you mean by 'salvation'.

I think it could be maintained and reformed under Guilliman, provided he has enough allies. The kind of total war that they're fighting actually means he has much more of an opportunity to cut the red tape and make sure it stays cut than he would if he'd emerged in peacetime not-as-total-wartime. People need to have direction in a time of crisis. After the crisis has died down he and his allies just need to make sure the changes stick and that the Imperium is more organised and sensible. The Imperium has changed over time, after all-admittedly the last major reform was that of St Thor, and the status quo from that has lasted for about as long as our entire civilisation, but change is possible in response to a sufficient crisis, and I think 'half the galaxy is missing and we are being attacked on all sides by unprecedentedly massive enemies but the son of God has returned to lead us' counts as sufficient.

Guilliman has not accomplished significant internal reform despite his intent to do so because of the very threats the Imperium faces on all fronts. He has been forced to shelve long term reforms of everything, even the dating system, in favor of short-term measures that allow him to get the Indomitus Crusade off the ground. He also has been running around putting down threats and putting out fires. Although he has had some military successes, he does not get any change to take a breath to tackle reforms, even on a local scale. He basically stops in any one place just long enough to replenish his military strength (even if it means wrecking planets in the long term) before setting off to tackle the next threat.

As a Primarch and one with a particular talent for administration and logistics, he probably could unsnarl the local Administratum if he could stay in place long enough and eventually turn areas into sort of Ultramar equivalents (i.e. a somewhat sane government though still austere and spartan by 21st century standards of human rights and quality of life). However he is trying to save the whole Imperium at once and I think that will be beyond him. In trying to save everything, he is going to lose it all. I don't think any reforms he starts last long after he leaves, and these reforms themselves are mostly surface level that accomplish the short term goal of keeping his Crusade forces replenished and moving.

He's also dealing with the fact that many reforms and changes required are not popular with all of the ruling bodies - many of which have extended life individuals who have been in positions of extreme power for centuries and don't want to lose any of it.

So its not just the scale of what he has to save; the very system of how the Imperium works is actively working against any kind of change or reform.
Meanwhile their entire military design and production is in the hands of religious science that worships the old design plans. If those plans have an error or are imperfect compared to modern understanding - they still won't change them. Or would take an extreme amount of time doing so etc..

Ergo he could save the Imperium, but the Imperium has been running in madness for so long that its normal to the population and change is hard to force through. Given enough time he could change it, but he also doesn't really have the time.

He’s certainly been handed a poisoned chalice of some kind. He’s expected to help save The Imperium, but a fair chunk of what’s needed (reform, rationalisation of authority etc) isn’t something those currently benefit would include under that job description.

And, unlike Pops? He can’t just arrange for everyone else to get their heads kicked in until they fall into line/stop being stubborn from a sudden case of completely ded. And as Primarch, there’s enough myth and legend about the dangers of handing him sufficient power that I don’t think many would agree it’s entirely a good idea.

The Ecclesiarchy may well be offensive to him. But ultimately, it serves the exact same job of a unifying vision as did The Imperial Truth, so I’m not sure it’s something that needs to be dismantled or really mucked about with.

After all, untold billions if not trillions of Imperial Citizens at all strata of society are believers. So to stand up and say “Stop That, It’s Silly” in such an official capacity is far more likely to just get you untold billions if not trillions of very unfriendly and downright uncooperative subjects.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He’s certainly been handed a poisoned chalice of some kind. He’s expected to help save The Imperium, but a fair chunk of what’s needed (reform, rationalisation of authority etc) isn’t something those currently benefit would include under that job description.

And, unlike Pops? He can’t just arrange for everyone else to get their heads kicked in until they fall into line/stop being stubborn from a sudden case of completely ded. And as Primarch, there’s enough myth and legend about the dangers of handing him sufficient power that I don’t think many would agree it’s entirely a good idea.

The Ecclesiarchy may well be offensive to him. But ultimately, it serves the exact same job of a unifying vision as did The Imperial Truth, so I’m not sure it’s something that needs to be dismantled or really mucked about with.

After all, untold billions if not trillions of Imperial Citizens at all strata of society are believers. So to stand up and say “Stop That, It’s Silly” in such an official capacity is far more likely to just get you untold billions if not trillions of very unfriendly and downright uncooperative subjects.

He's managed to replace the High Lords of Terra, but I suspect without his direct influence (which he cannot give as he is not on Terra but off running around with a flaming sword) they will drown in the quicksand of red tape and bureaucracy even if they were picked to be reformists.

Guilliman probably could save a portion of the Imperium at the cost of sacrificing the rest, and reform it then expand from there, but he is trying to retain the existing Imperium's territory. Through the sheer force of his presence, charisma, and administrative skill, he probably could win any single administrative battle he dedicated himself to, but he is never given the time to focus on any one particular task. My head canon is that is what the Chaos gods are actually doing. They are throwing up new threats to distract him and prevent him from enacting reform, and he has taken the bait due to his sense of duty.

He has also tolerated the Ecclesiarchy because in the 40K universe it is an objective truth that faith has power against Chaos and daemons. In the Gates of Bones novel, there seems to be a message in the story about this. In the book, the Custodes, who can be seen to be the ultimate expression of the Emperor's 30K realspace ideals of realspace perfection and rejection of psychics for an atheistic Imperial Truth ideology, fail to take down a Chaos antagonist due to its daemonic pacts and wards. The Shield-Captain was unable to land a fatal blow due to these wards and is himself killed, whereas the physically weaker Sisters of Battle succeed with their faith as their bolt shells fly straight through and hit the Chaos antagonist as if the wards didn't exist.

The imperium is doomed in my opinion. Anyone with power in the imperium is to concerned with retaining that power to make way for any kind of progressive or positive change.

There doesn’t seem to be any kinship amongst the imperium as a whole, just a pyramid of bullies, each one hoping not to upset a bigger bully and get stepped on.

Any significant challenge to this system will be called a heretic before they have chance to defend themselves and their motives.

And the returned primarchs have their hands full fighting in the half of the galaxy taken over by chaos.

Any form of salvation will come in the form of the smaller pockets of humanity that survive the inevitable collapse of the imperium possibly protected by space marines chapters as the existence of base humans is the only way to ensure the continuity of the trans-human species.

Unless the emperor does turn into a warp god but he’s so self centred he will be just as focused on his own pursuits and turning sentient beings to his cause as the chaos god he will probably ditch humans for the next dominant species that emerges

Yet, it’s stood that way for 10,000+ years.

Like it or not, and with tantalisingly few details about the 29,000 years between now and Unification? So far as we can tell it’s still mankind’s longest surviving and therefore most successful civilisation. And that’s despite the great and increasing number of foes and challenges constantly emerging.

Given it sheer, staggering size? It’s absolutely inefficient and far less than it should be. But it is enduring. Even the “we blinked and boy did the Tau get a growth spurt”, a better run and more efficient and organised Imperium could and should still have just splatted the upstarts.

Don't forget the magic box (from the Emperor) on Titan that is to only be opened (by the GK Grandmaster) if the gak hits the fan.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Don't forget the magic box (from the Emperor) on Titan that is to only be opened (by the GK Grandmaster) if the gak hits the fan.

What’s this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet, it’s stood that way for 10,000+ years.

Like it or not, and with tantalisingly few details about the 29,000 years between now and Unification? So far as we can tell it’s still mankind’s longest surviving and therefore most successful civilisation. And that’s despite the great and increasing number of foes and challenges constantly emerging.

Given it sheer, staggering size? It’s absolutely inefficient and far less than it should be. But it is enduring. Even the “we blinked and boy did the Tau get a growth spurt”, a better run and more efficient and organised Imperium could and should still have just splatted the upstarts.

Even though it ended in civil war the human conquest of the galaxy did leave in place an epic war machine and many enemies had been subjected to xenocide. So it’s not surprising that it’s lasted so long but it’s aging and falling apart. Like a living organism everything it repairs itself there are diminishing returns.

mrFickle wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Don't forget the magic box (from the Emperor) on Titan that is to only be opened (by the GK Grandmaster) if the gak hits the fan.

What’s this?

The Terminus Decree! - One of the coolest bits of fluff on Titan.

The Terminus Decree is a set of ancient instructions written upon millennia-old parchment and sealed within a mysterious artefact of the Grey Knights Space Marine Chapter.

This artefact goes unrecorded in all the libraries of the Imperium, for it has been kept secret from all but the supreme grand masters of that Chapter.

It is said that the Terminus Decree contains the final secret of the Chapter, a secret so great that it could destroy the foundations of the Imperium -- or provide salvation in its darkest hour.

History
Deep within the Chambers of Purity, within the Grey Knights fortress-monastery on Titan, locked away in the chamber said to hold the tomb of Malcador the Sigillite himself, rests a simple wooden box, embellished with a golden seal. Within this box is the ancient parchment that contains the instructions known only as the Terminus Decree.

Only a supreme grand master of the Grey Knights knows how to open the box, and he will do so only when all hope for the future of Humanity seems lost. The Terminus Decree is the ultimate sanction of the Grey Knights, a secret so vast it could bring the Imperium to its knees, or save it in its darkest hour.

The exact nature of the document is unknown, and the only clue to its contents lies in the box's golden seal. It is whispered that it is the exact match of another seal, found only in one place in all the Imperium of Man's many scattered worlds: within the Imperial Palace, upon the Emperor's Golden Throne.

Sources
Codex: Grey Knights (7th Edition), pg. 21
Codex: Grey Knights (5th Edition), pg. 9

That is a cool piece of fluff. There should be a Black Library book explaining exactly what's inside the box in detail, told directly to the reader through objective narration. Then it would be even cooler.

A mercy killing? Yes. Salvation? Not sure.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
That is a cool piece of fluff. There should be a Black Library book explaining exactly what's inside the box in detail, told directly to the reader through objective narration. Then it would be even cooler.

If GW ever do open the box it will probably be the location of the webway portal on earth and instructions on how to open it. But the instructions will also say fyi there’s a load of baddie demons on the other side of the portal that you will have to fight your way through. And then the deus ex would be jaghati khan shows up to lead a rear assault on the demons like the horsemen of Rohan

Maybe if the Sensei return.