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Given the density of its major population centres? Probably not, no.

I mean, a census was attempted on Necromunda. It managed the top levels of Hive Primus, and gave up.

Brutal oppression, brutally enforced state religion and ensuring a “healthy” abject terror of The Other does much of the heavy lifting. Don’t need to watch your population when you’ve tricked it into watching itself.

 Insectum7 wrote:

No government would ever spy on its own population, right? Certainly not authoritarian leaning ones. That would just never happen.

When the population of a single Hive can reach that of a continent and 90% of that Hive is unreachable by satellite imagery, yeah there's no point.

And again, its a world currently being invaded. At some point a Chaos fleet was in orbit launching troops. Picking off any satellites in orbit that could have presented an issue would have been laughably easy to accomplish.

But sure, ignore the rest of what I wrote to try and get a cheap "gotcha".

 Gert wrote:
Most people have the ability to read between the lines though.

There's 'reading between the lines', and then there's 'insert some headcanon to cover plotholes which obviously can't really be plotholes because this is good writing, right..?'

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

No government would ever spy on its own population, right? Certainly not authoritarian leaning ones. That would just never happen.

When the population of a single Hive can reach that of a continent and 90% of that Hive is unreachable by satellite imagery, yeah there's no point.

Any government, suitably paranoid, will be able to find a point for it. Monitoring traffic between hives or population centers, for example. Maybe watching for gatherings of people who specifically leave population centers to get away from the internal spy systems that they're more aware of. It's pretty easy to come up with reasons, especially in a dystopia.

 Gert wrote:
And again, its a world currently being invaded. At some point a Chaos fleet was in orbit launching troops. Picking off any satellites in orbit that could have presented an issue would have been laughably easy to accomplish.

But sure, ignore the rest of what I wrote to try and get a cheap "gotcha".

I'm unaware of the broader context of the story, so I don't know what the world in this specific situation is like. I'm just pointing out that the idea that governments don't need outside-of-state frictions to find excuses to spy on their own populace. Besides, what you wrote was "The Imperium doesn't really do satellite surveillance because why would it?" Which isn't story specific. It's a very broad statement that covers not only hive worlds or worlds currently under invasion. If the Imperium is so vast and so diverse, why would that be a rule?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given the density of its major population centres? Probably not, no.

I mean, a census was attempted on Necromunda. It managed the top levels of Hive Primus, and gave up.

Brutal oppression, brutally enforced state religion and ensuring a “healthy” abject terror of The Other does much of the heavy lifting. Don’t need to watch your population when you’ve tricked it into watching itself.

See above for reasons why even a hive world might find motives for orbital surveillance. But also throw in the fact that hive worlds only make up a fraction of Imperial worlds, and even then individual hive worlds are going to vary in makeup and level of paranoia in governorship.

Y'all are needlessly homogenizing the 40k setting seemingly in excuse for lazy writing. Worlds should be different, stewardship of those worlds should vary tremendously, and ideally that would result in a wider array of stories to tell within the setting. Not only that, but getting those little details in can make for better worldbuilding.

No, I’m homogenising the culture.

Think Spanish Inquisition With Super Spiky Knobs On.

When you’ve had 10,000+ years to make your galaxy spanning populace paranoid and perfectly aware of what happens to other, it very likely does the job for you.

Saving the ongoing expense of repair and replace sophisticated surveillance you almost don’t really understand at all.

Good ol’ human nature.

Such broad strokes are exactly what I mean when I say "needlessly homogenizing the culture".

There are feral worlds, feudal worlds, hive worlds, agri worlds, technologically sophisticated worlds, stone age worlds etc. Worlds with large populations and tiny. Incredibly repressive worlds and worlds that are more free. Worlds with cultural variety and worlds with monolithic regimes. Worlds with lots of imperial contact and worlds with little.

On top of that you've got layers of capable technology. The Imperium has the technology to put things into orbit, obviously, and the Imperium has the technology to spot and target opposing vessels from hundreds of thousands or millions of miles away, a la any game of Battlefleet Gothic. We know the Imperium has orbiting weapons platforms capable of turning their weapons back onto a planets surface (as has happened in many a story), make pinpoint attacks with beam weapons from space (as it shows up in Epic and 40K) as well as somehow navigate a battlefield from orbit in order to coordinate dropping troops into it (any landing operation).

I guess I wonder what the motivation is to suggest that nowhere in the Imperium has anybody ever achieved putting sensors on small spacecraft in order to gather intelligence. I assume there are already satellites in place for purposes of weather forecasting (most obviously for the purposes of farming or travel) and communications satellites to that it's easy to send messages between hemispheres, either for harmless coordination between sectors or for broadcasting religious propaganda from a central authority.

And I don't mean to say that whatever it is shows up in a 1-1 analogue with the way these technologies manifest on our Earth in RL, but to suggest that it's out of the question across the million of Imperial worlds is pretty nuts, if you ask me. It's like taking the common sci-fi trope of "single planet, single culture" and blowing it up times a million. It's definitely the polar opposite of a "sandbox" setting.

Imperial planets are probably covered in so many spy satellites that they constantly crash into each other.

Invading spaceships would blow them all up pretty quickly though, unless they had their own Void Shields or something.

 Gert wrote:

Most people have the ability to read between the lines though. You shouldn't need to be told in black and white that a system that is in the middle of an invasion might not have the navy present over the planet at all times.

Sir, there's no need to insult my reading skills, I read at an 8th grade level, 9th grade when 40k is involved.

My point is, the writer made it an IMPORTANT and REOCCURRING plot point that the Imperium cannot find these carriers and that the Imperial cannot spot incoming bombing raids unless someone sees or hears them.

Which was the situation in the Second World War but is not the situation in the 40k universe, a shared universe which I believe Mr. Abnett has some experience with.

Easy to hand wave why radar/auspex/orbital surveillance/dude in a high altitude jet with a good pair of binoculars doesn't work (Ion Storms!) but it's the author job to actually do the hand waving, otherwise I keep getting knocked out of the "cool plains go zoom" to wonder how this is supposed to work.

He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

Or it was destroyed by the vile darkness known to all writers as the EDITOR.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

Abnett's sparse and tight writing style is one of his hallmarks as anyone who read End and the Death, Ender and Deather, and Endest and Deathest can attest. He is never one to be sidetracked by minor details or insignificant concerns.

The vast majority of 40K conflicts would be solved by “just nuke it from orbit”. But it’s a well established tripe that that is not what they do. Because the land battles are the fun bit we play.

For all the scanners and big ships and space lasers 40K battlefield tech is much more akin to WW2 era stuff, the vox never works, scanners are always short range or unreliable, they have to use scouts, outriders and recon parties. Even space Marines have to send troops out on foot looking for missing or lost things/tropps/artefects.

In every 40K story you have to hand wave away “why don’t they just nuke it from orbit?” “Why didn’t the scans show that huge invading army over the hill?” “Couldn’t satellites pick up that huge invasion fleet earlier?”. That’s just standard and double eagle is no worse. What it is, is a great ww2 style dog fight story. As someone above said, Battle of Britain in 40K. I had no issue when ready it to assume space asserts weren’t available, just like they weren’t for very Gaunts ghosts conflict, or every other land war in 40K.

Habitable planets and economically useful real estate is valuable. Glassing everything from orbit destroys this value. Given the degraded technology of the Imperium, some lost assets may be permanently lost beyond recovery or reconstruction.

GW has constructed a universe where the military paradigm is that space power is NOT the supreme be all and end all of the military forces.

In the 40K universe paradigm, space power is one arm, an important one, but not the only one that matters. In particular, with reference to the BFG rulebook, the firepower of ground defense installations actually is superior to a bombarding ship, and is likely far more affordable in terms of cost. The average planetary defense laser silo packs almost as much firepower as the broadside of a Gothic cruiser, with greater range than the Gothic. Likewise, the average planetary defense missile silo has the launch capacity of a full cruiser, and the average planetary defense air base has enough short range aerospace fighters and bombers to match a Dictator cruiser.

From the old GW Armageddon 3 website archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20040805101210/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/BFG/BFGmap.html

we can see the defenses of each hive on Armageddon comprised at least 4 air bases, 8 missile silos, and 8 laser silos. That kind of firepower would be enough to shred your average navy frigate, and even your average cruiser, if they tried to bombard the hive. Even if one takes Armageddon to be a more heavily defended than usual hive world, it still gives a rough gauge of the defenses a typical hive or fortress might have, which still is likely to overpower most spaceships.

Then we have also multiple examples extant in the universe of facilities and cities shielded by void shields or other more esoteric shields, so orbital bombardment isn't some instant "I win" card.

We’ve also seen Exterminatus being a carefully decided strategy, because it knacks the entire planet.

Very few have the authority to take that path, and even fewer do it regularly.

Even then, it’s something of a catch-all term. It could be Life Eater Virus, followed by a lance strike to ignite the suddenly dense amount of methane and other flammable gases. It could be just bombarding the planet relentlessly. It could be cyclonic torpedoes, which are again not a single thing. Some will “merely” burn off the atmosphere and vaporise the oceans. Others will penetrate the crust and make the whole thing asplode.

And just because you’ve the authority and possibly requirement of an Exterminatus, you may simply not have the tools available to hand.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

Abnett's sparse and tight writing style is one of his hallmarks as anyone who read End and the Death, Ender and Deather, and Endest and Deathest can attest. He is never one to be sidetracked by minor details or insignificant concerns.

I would contend that the type of writer who goes on many needless digressions is more likely to forget something important, not less. Since it becomes more difficult to remember what you've already said, and what you still need to say.

I think a good world-builder can detail things out and make it consistent. Maybe this is rare, and why we appreciate the ones that can do it well.

But on the other end is the type of writer who doesn't give details, yet still somehow make things inconsistent.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

Abnett's sparse and tight writing style is one of his hallmarks as anyone who read End and the Death, Ender and Deather, and Endest and Deathest can attest. He is never one to be sidetracked by minor details or insignificant concerns.

He did give us the greatest Warhammer story ever: Ultramarines: A Warhammer 40,000 Movie. I mean if that isn't a glowing review of Mr. Abnett's writing prowess, I don't know what is.

He also does a lot of work for 2000ad.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

Abnett's sparse and tight writing style is one of his hallmarks as anyone who read End and the Death, Ender and Deather, and Endest and Deathest can attest. He is never one to be sidetracked by minor details or insignificant concerns.

I would contend that the type of writer who goes on many needless digressions is more likely to forget something important, not less. Since it becomes more difficult to remember what you've already said, and what you still need to say.

Normally, the way it works is that the writer makes a separate document often called a "bible" where they carefully note down all the details and assorted lore. Then, when they write the actual story, they constantly cross-reference this bible to keep things nicely consistent and not forget anything. However this really needs a whole lot of dedication on the writer's part and a setting that is actually good for this kind of formularization - and I'd argue the 40k setting is not one of those.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
He probably just had an explanation but then forgot to put it in the book.

Abnett's sparse and tight writing style is one of his hallmarks as anyone who read End and the Death, Ender and Deather, and Endest and Deathest can attest. He is never one to be sidetracked by minor details or insignificant concerns.

I would contend that the type of writer who goes on many needless digressions is more likely to forget something important, not less. Since it becomes more difficult to remember what you've already said, and what you still need to say.

Normally, the way it works is that the writer makes a separate document often called a "bible" where they carefully note down all the details and assorted lore. Then, when they write the actual story, they constantly cross-reference this bible to keep things nicely consistent and not forget anything. However this really needs a whole lot of dedication on the writer's part and a setting that is actually good for this kind of formularization - and I'd argue the 40k setting is not one of those.

There's no reason 40K can't/shouldn't be that sort of setting.


... but then, it is easier to just say, 'yeah necrodermis does whatever now, who cares; just make it a non-specific umbrella term'...

I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.

Might I suggest these C.S. Goto novels over here...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.

You see, it's a very dense cluster of photons. . .

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.

You see, it's a very dense cluster of photons. . .

While you are pondering this, can you also figure out how Chewbacca's Bowcaster worked in Star Wars?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.

You see, it's a very dense cluster of photons. . .

While you are pondering this, can you also figure out how Chewbacca's Bowcaster worked in Star Wars?

Or all the “pew pew” noises in space battles in films or the sounds of space ships engines. Or one of the best noises in film, the sound d of bobba fetts mine thing! We don’t want scientifically accurate 40K, it’d be so dull!

Andykp wrote:


Or all the “pew pew” noises in space battles in films or the sounds of space ships engines. Or one of the best noises in film, the sound d of bobba fetts mine thing! We don’t want scientifically accurate 40K, it’d be so dull!

LOL, that's an easy one, Star Wars is set in a Galaxy Far, Far, Away there is zero evidence in the films that space there is airless. After all they told X-Wing pilots to 'eject' despite having open face masks and I can's remember anyone ever needing a space suit for anything. Therefore in the GFFA space has air.

It's a lot like how no one in Star Wars ever dies from falling. Different physical properties and biology.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I guess I wonder what the motivation is to suggest that nowhere in the Imperium has anybody ever achieved putting sensors on small spacecraft in order to gather intelligence. I assume there are already satellites in place for purposes of weather forecasting (most obviously for the purposes of farming or travel) and communications satellites to that it's easy to send messages between hemispheres, either for harmless coordination between sectors or for broadcasting religious propaganda from a central authority.

If it is of any help, we do actually have at least one example of the Imperium explicitly deploying a "sensor net" of satellites for the explicit purpose of enabling communication, and surveying both the weather and the approaching enemy. It's in chapter one of the novel Caves of Ice; the novel describes this as within the means of a random, non-military transport ship that the protagonists have requisitioned, and goes on to mention that the deployment of a "proper orbital sensor net" was something that a "real troopship" would be better equipped for, but then says that the jury-rigged, civilian version is capable enough to deliver all of the aforementioned stuff (for example, it provides images that are good enough that you can clearly mark out the ork horde and later on recognize titan-scale vehicles, although not individual orks).

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Andykp wrote:


Or all the “pew pew” noises in space battles in films or the sounds of space ships engines. Or one of the best noises in film, the sound d of bobba fetts mine thing! We don’t want scientifically accurate 40K, it’d be so dull!

LOL, that's an easy one, Star Wars is set in a Galaxy Far, Far, Away there is zero evidence in the films that space there is airless. After all they told X-Wing pilots to 'eject' despite having open face masks and I can's remember anyone ever needing a space suit for anything. Therefore in the GFFA space has air.

It's a lot like how no one in Star Wars ever dies from falling. Different physical properties and biology.

While not referenced in the films that I'm aware of, in the books the helmet and/or suit projects an energy field in case of an ejection.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Andykp wrote:


Or all the “pew pew” noises in space battles in films or the sounds of space ships engines. Or one of the best noises in film, the sound d of bobba fetts mine thing! We don’t want scientifically accurate 40K, it’d be so dull!

LOL, that's an easy one, Star Wars is set in a Galaxy Far, Far, Away there is zero evidence in the films that space there is airless. After all they told X-Wing pilots to 'eject' despite having open face masks and I can's remember anyone ever needing a space suit for anything. Therefore in the GFFA space has air.

It's a lot like how no one in Star Wars ever dies from falling. Different physical properties and biology.

I'm pretty sure the Emperor in RotJ died from a fall.

I dunno. Somehow Palpatine returned. Was it because he just landed safely somehow? I assume that a future Disney movie will explain just that.