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 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
or, maybe, perhaps, warhammer 40k is many different things at once, and you can't ascribe one single tone to the entire thing at once

At once? No. No more than you can say that Berserk or Dark Souls is always serious all the time because there are brief moments of levity. There is still, however, a tone that is dominant and it's not comedy.

I don't know about you, but the premise of humanity on the brink of extinction, either due to outside forces (some of which include demons) or their own failings, with their only real chance of survival and self-determination as a species being ensured (rather poorly, I might add) by a tyrannical, corrupt regime who's running on the fumes of past accomplishments they don't even understand or remember doesn't sound like a comedy.
It's almost as if the Grim in Grimdark actually means something.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
... with their only real chance of survival and self-determination as a species being ensured (rather poorly, I might add) by a tyrannical, corrupt regime who's running on the fumes of past accomplishments they don't even understand or remember doesn't sound like a comedy.

It's not comedy, but it is a satire of fascism. It's an impression of what happens when the people with absolute authority are also ridiculously evil and insular. The Imperium's problems are entirely of their own making, and they refuse to admit it and so continue to just make everything worse while insisting that we can all fix it if we just sacrifice a little bit more...

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
... with their only real chance of survival and self-determination as a species being ensured (rather poorly, I might add) by a tyrannical, corrupt regime who's running on the fumes of past accomplishments they don't even understand or remember doesn't sound like a comedy.

It's not comedy, but it is a satire of fascism. It's an impression of what happens when the people with absolute authority are also ridiculously evil and insular. The Imperium's problems are entirely of their own making, and they refuse to admit it and so continue to just make everything worse while insisting that we can all fix it if we just sacrifice a little bit more...

Authoritarianism more like, as fascists do not hold a monopoly on such policies. The last line could just as easily be applied to the likes of Communist China, the USSR, corrupt democracies or various despotic monarchs. Lysenko did not work for a fascist regime.
If 40k is a satire, then it is a satire of the tendency of humans to continually make the same terrible decisions throughout the ages, in all of their forms. Which may include fascism, but not exclusively so.
"40k is a satire of fascism" (if it even is that, as apparently even the setting's creators dispute that claim) grossly limits the scope when it covers so much more than that.

I dispute that the IoM's problems are entirely of their own making, unless they somehow went back in time and got the Eldar to give birth to Slaanesh, which led to the fall of humanity's previous, utopian space faring empire. Also went even further back and reconditioned the Orks to be murder hobos.
A lot of it is certainly the IoM's fault, but a good chunk of it is also due to really bad luck and circumstance.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...(if it even is that, as apparently even the setting's creators dispute that claim)

Not quite. One of the setting's creators said that they didn't set out specifically to write satire. But the influences they drew from, and their own personal leanings certainly created one.

I dispute that the IoM's problems are entirely of their own making, unless they somehow went back in time and got the Eldar to give birth to Slaanesh, which led to the fall of humanity's previous, utopian space faring empire. Also went even further back and reconditioned the Orks to be murder hobos.
A lot of it is certainly the IoM's fault, but a good chunk of it is also due to really bad luck and circumstance.

The entire reason that the Imperium stands alone against the various threats in the 'current' timeline is that they tried to kill everyone else. Without the Emperor's xenophobic approach to the rest of the galaxy, and without his gross mishandling of the Primarchs, the Imperium would be in a very different place right now. The idea that everything that happened was necessary for humanity's survival is in-universe propaganda, not actual truth.

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
...(if it even is that, as apparently even the setting's creators dispute that claim)

Not quite. One of the setting's creators said that they didn't set out specifically to write satire. But the influences they drew from, and their own personal leanings certainly created one.

I dispute that the IoM's problems are entirely of their own making, unless they somehow went back in time and got the Eldar to give birth to Slaanesh, which led to the fall of humanity's previous, utopian space faring empire. Also went even further back and reconditioned the Orks to be murder hobos.
A lot of it is certainly the IoM's fault, but a good chunk of it is also due to really bad luck and circumstance.

The entire reason that the Imperium stands alone against the various threats in the 'current' timeline is that they tried to kill everyone else. Without the Emperor's xenophobic approach to the rest of the galaxy, and without his gross mishandling of the Primarchs, the Imperium would be in a very different place right now. The idea that everything that happened was necessary for humanity's survival is in-universe propaganda, not actual truth.

Eh, yes and no.
Yes, they did kill off most of their potential allies. There was no need to exterminate the Interex and they were human too.
But there are still hostile alien races. There is no negotiating with the Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar and the Craftworld Eldar made it clear that they consider the lives of several thousand humans to be the less than that of one Eldar.
Similarly, whilst the Tau may appear reasonable, they are similarly imperialistic like the Imperium and are also collectivist, following their own version of self sacrifice for a cause.
The Emperor's approach was certainly heavy handed and his obsession with all human worlds joining the empire ironically resulted in humans dying as well, but at the same time it might have lessened the likelihood of humans becoming alien pawns or cattle.

The point is is that the Imperium would still be besieged either way. Even had they spared the Interex and assimilated whatever "friendly" alien races they'd encounter, they'd still have to contend with Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar which are considerable threats. They'd have "friends" (assuming, of course, said friends survived to see the 41st millennium in this hypothetical timeline), but it will still be a miserable situation.

People will look at you askance if you take the assumption that the imperium is the only way for humanity to survive seriously, when you also accept every other contradictory and suboptimal aspect of 40k. It comes across as apologetics rather than reason.

The human golden age was still in the same universe 40k is in. The tyranids weren't around, but orks and everything else was. Humanity rose to that height without being the imperium.

The universe hasn't changed so much that self destructive authoritarianism is the only logical solution. Having a bunch of enemies doesn't mean everyone has to be an enemy, or that your own people have to be enemies.


The imperium being besieged is entirely of their own making. they wouldn't be if they weren't infinitely expansionistic, or felt the need to hold every planet a human ship managed to land on. If you claim all of the galaxy as your own, then the simple existence of someone else trying to claim a planet is considered being besieged. Which is part of the endless internal propaganda that keeps the total war footing of the imperium going.

 Quixote wrote:

... or Futurama-esque "death by snu-snu?" The end result of crushed pelvises is the same, just degrees of less-than-horribleness.

By Sisters of Battle? Hmmmm... I'm in.

-STS

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
... with their only real chance of survival and self-determination as a species being ensured (rather poorly, I might add) by a tyrannical, corrupt regime who's running on the fumes of past accomplishments they don't even understand or remember doesn't sound like a comedy.

It's not comedy, but it is a satire of fascism. It's an impression of what happens when the people with absolute authority are also ridiculously evil and insular. The Imperium's problems are entirely of their own making, and they refuse to admit it and so continue to just make everything worse while insisting that we can all fix it if we just sacrifice a little bit more...

Authoritarianism more like, as fascists do not hold a monopoly on such policies. The last line could just as easily be applied to the likes of Communist China, the USSR, corrupt democracies or various despotic monarchs. Lysenko did not work for a fascist regime.
If 40k is a satire, then it is a satire of the tendency of humans to continually make the same terrible decisions throughout the ages, in all of their forms. Which may include fascism, but not exclusively so.
"40k is a satire of fascism" (if it even is that, as apparently even the setting's creators dispute that claim) grossly limits the scope when it covers so much more than that.

I dispute that the IoM's problems are entirely of their own making, unless they somehow went back in time and got the Eldar to give birth to Slaanesh, which led to the fall of humanity's previous, utopian space faring empire. Also went even further back and reconditioned the Orks to be murder hobos.
A lot of it is certainly the IoM's fault, but a good chunk of it is also due to really bad luck and circumstance.

Eh. I saw a lot of people on reddit blaming the IoM for the Men of Iron revolt. I believe the reddit opinion was that the IoM's lack of tolerance for AI caused the Men of Iron to revolt.

I wouldn't put it past people to blame the IoM for gak they actually haven't done

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
or, maybe, perhaps, warhammer 40k is many different things at once, and you can't ascribe one single tone to the entire thing at once

Yeah. I think it's very nice that you can map any tone you want onto it. Serious sci-fi, horror, comedy, dumb-action, drama, etc. You just take the bit that resonates with you and run with it.

 Hellebore wrote:
People will look at you askance if you take the assumption that the imperium is the only way for humanity to survive seriously, when you also accept every other contradictory and suboptimal aspect of 40k. It comes across as apologetics rather than reason.

The human golden age was still in the same universe 40k is in. The tyranids weren't around, but orks and everything else was. Humanity rose to that height without being the imperium.

The universe hasn't changed so much that self destructive authoritarianism is the only logical solution. Having a bunch of enemies doesn't mean everyone has to be an enemy, or that your own people have to be enemies.


The imperium being besieged is entirely of their own making. they wouldn't be if they weren't infinitely expansionistic, or felt the need to hold every planet a human ship managed to land on. If you claim all of the galaxy as your own, then the simple existence of someone else trying to claim a planet is considered being besieged. Which is part of the endless internal propaganda that keeps the total war footing of the imperium going.

Orks, probably yes. Not Dark Eldar though, as the Eldar Empire hadn't split yet and the Warp was relatively calm so the Chaos gods' powers were probably more limited.
The birth of Slaanesh really ruined everything for everyone. Necrons were still asleep too.
The galaxy during humanity's golden age was arguably safer back then overall, and trying to compare it to how it is in the 41st millennia is faulty reasoning. Unless of course some high lord went back in time, started the War in Heaven (thereby creating the Necrons and Orks), triggered the birth of Slaanesh (thereby causing the Fall of the Eldar, the forming of the Dark Eldar and the disturbance in the warp) and invited the Tyranids for an all you can eat buffet.

I don't see how referring to a regime as corrupt and tyrannical and painting it as one of the tragedies of the setting is "apologetic". If you read carefully, I'm saying that the Imperium currently being humanity's best chance of survival is a bad thing and is one of the grimdark aspects of the setting. There might have been other paths, but those have been burned by either Imperial policies, human folly (it's convenient to blame humanity's failings on the IoM, but remember that humans had the capacity to be horrible long before it) or a twist of fate.
The Imperium is not some nebulous entity that came out of the warp to enslave people.
It's an institution that was formed by scared, desperate humans following teachings they didn't quite understand created by a desperate human with considerably inhuman abilities and performed inhumane practices. The creation of the Imperium is in itself a human folly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
... with their only real chance of survival and self-determination as a species being ensured (rather poorly, I might add) by a tyrannical, corrupt regime who's running on the fumes of past accomplishments they don't even understand or remember doesn't sound like a comedy.

It's not comedy, but it is a satire of fascism. It's an impression of what happens when the people with absolute authority are also ridiculously evil and insular. The Imperium's problems are entirely of their own making, and they refuse to admit it and so continue to just make everything worse while insisting that we can all fix it if we just sacrifice a little bit more...

Authoritarianism more like, as fascists do not hold a monopoly on such policies. The last line could just as easily be applied to the likes of Communist China, the USSR, corrupt democracies or various despotic monarchs. Lysenko did not work for a fascist regime.
If 40k is a satire, then it is a satire of the tendency of humans to continually make the same terrible decisions throughout the ages, in all of their forms. Which may include fascism, but not exclusively so.
"40k is a satire of fascism" (if it even is that, as apparently even the setting's creators dispute that claim) grossly limits the scope when it covers so much more than that.

I dispute that the IoM's problems are entirely of their own making, unless they somehow went back in time and got the Eldar to give birth to Slaanesh, which led to the fall of humanity's previous, utopian space faring empire. Also went even further back and reconditioned the Orks to be murder hobos.
A lot of it is certainly the IoM's fault, but a good chunk of it is also due to really bad luck and circumstance.

Eh. I saw a lot of people on reddit blaming the IoM for the Men of Iron revolt. I believe the reddit opinion was that the IoM's lack of tolerance for AI caused the Men of Iron to revolt.

Which is weird, because the Men of Iron revolt happened long before the IoM. It might have created the IoM's intolerance for AI, but it didn't happen under them.

40K is a tale of hubris.

The Old Ones? Brought low by their hubris, creating client species as weapons. This wrecked The Warp, leading direct to the Chaos Gods.

The Necrontyr? Brought low by their hubris. Now a literal shadow of their former selves. Few retain any real sentience, and those that do are at least a bit Hatstand

The Orks? If they are indeed descended from the Krork, an ongoing impact of the Old One’s hubris.

Eldar? Hubris up the wazoo

Mankind? Had it all, and lost it (Men of Iron, Dark Age of Technology) through hubris. The Emperor continued that hubris. He probably didn’t believe himself a god, but he definitely believed not only did he know best, but that his way was the only way, and like the Old Ones, creating things to fight his war went really badly in the end. This has left mankind deep in the brown stuff, still slaved to his whims, and he’s not especially clear or communicative these days.

Tau? Oh the makings of it are there. Reliance on the Ethereal Caste, and they’re not exactly playing fair by the rest of the species. The Greater Good, absorbing client species who are free to believe what they want, provided it’s what everyone else believes.

Kin? Bound to tradition, and not necessarily through conscious choice. Another example of mankind’s hubris prior to the Dark Age of Technology.

Tyranids? If there is a proper consciousness to the Hive Mind, it’s an idiot. Consumer everything. All of it. Leave nothing behind. That’s not sustainable and it will eventually, if left unchecked, destroy the galactic ecosystem, forcing it to find yet another galaxy.

That’s the joke. Everyone has farted on their own Weetabix. And only the Orks are having an objectively great time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And only the Orks are having an objectively great time.

JOO EAR THAT LADS, WE'Z IZ DA PROT- PROTAGZNA- DA BIGGEST AN KRUMPIEST BOSSES OF DIS STORY!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
40K is a tale of hubris.

The Old Ones? Brought low by their hubris, creating client species as weapons. This wrecked The Warp, leading direct to the Chaos Gods.

The Necrontyr? Brought low by their hubris. Now a literal shadow of their former selves. Few retain any real sentience, and those that do are at least a bit Hatstand

The Orks? If they are indeed descended from the Krork, an ongoing impact of the Old One’s hubris.

Eldar? Hubris up the wazoo

Mankind? Had it all, and lost it (Men of Iron, Dark Age of Technology) through hubris. The Emperor continued that hubris. He probably didn’t believe himself a god, but he definitely believed not only did he know best, but that his way was the only way, and like the Old Ones, creating things to fight his war went really badly in the end. This has left mankind deep in the brown stuff, still slaved to his whims, and he’s not especially clear or communicative these days.

Tau? Oh the makings of it are there. Reliance on the Ethereal Caste, and they’re not exactly playing fair by the rest of the species. The Greater Good, absorbing client species who are free to believe what they want, provided it’s what everyone else believes.

Kin? Bound to tradition, and not necessarily through conscious choice. Another example of mankind’s hubris prior to the Dark Age of Technology.

Tyranids? If there is a proper consciousness to the Hive Mind, it’s an idiot. Consumer everything. All of it. Leave nothing behind. That’s not sustainable and it will eventually, if left unchecked, destroy the galactic ecosystem, forcing it to find yet another galaxy.

That’s the joke. Everyone has farted on their own Weetabix. And only the Orks are having an objectively great time.

Exactly. Hubris and decay is one of the big themes of 40k. Even the Orks got hit, because the Krorks, their ancestors, were so much more than they are now. The fact they only care about the now rather than the was or the will be actually works in their favor, because otherwise they'd be as miserable as everyone else.

Yeah, the Emperor is like Paul Atreides except a lot more arrogant and a lot more desperate. They both had premonitions and saw a future they wanted to avoid or achieve, except one felt remorse for the carnage his actions wrought and the other felt that he knew best because he lived for tens of thousands of years to guide humanity, even though he failed to stop the end of their golden age.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There is still, however, a tone that is dominant and it's not comedy.

I dare you to read one of Mike Brook's ork books

 Jidmah wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There is still, however, a tone that is dominant and it's not comedy.

I dare you to read one of Mike Brook's ork books

No thank you, I'd rather reread the 5th ed Necron codex.