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So with UK big distributors giving a 35% discount, and smaller shops being inundated (HLS models in Erith got sent 8 boxes and associated book sets despite only ordering one), GW seems to have overestimated the interest in this one?

"No, you're reading wayy too much into it" replies incoming in 3, 2, 1...

Not sure if I've missed it but I can no longer see Saturnine listed on Dark Sphere. There were over 300 available on pre-order.
Did they sell 300 since the discount, or have they pulled the box? Or am I just looking in the wrong places?

I would say it's definitely not been picked up as much as the AoD box.

Whether it's rules, models or price we probably won't know.

I've picked it up after seeing the kits in the wild with the 35% off but I'm selling the rules, the turret, and the Saturnine units. Unsure about the dread yet but it might go on Ye Olde Ebay as well.

Basically getting the Praetor, Centurion and the Mk2s just just add to various projects.
Having seen how the Praetor goes together it's getting made into a converted Vulkan (been going back to the OG days converting and kitbashing everything from existing kits).

I got AoD but not this box. It's a combination of the rulebooks being less appealing (they are a more dubious value proposition now that signs indicate they will only last 3 years, which I didn't know with my 2.0 rulebook and liber, so I purchased them) and the Saturnine units being a bit so-so in my mind (the Terminators especially - they look a bit out of place in a Heresy force lineup).

I bet they'll still sell, especially with so big a discount, and the emphasis here seems to be attracting new players rather than satisfying existing ones, which I am sure this box will do just fine at.

GW sells out of new boxed set - GW has underestimated the market and its the end of GW/The game

GW doesn't sell out of new boxed set - GW has over-estimated the market and its the end of GW/The Game


Broadly speaking its a no win situation for GW
Yes this kit has clearly not sold as well as other kits and some retailers are choosing to sell the boxed set at a lower price to release the funds from them faster. We've seen this before the Age of Sigmar. It's rare but it happens.
Note that the models in this might have a lifespan measured in decades and the boxed set has at least a 3 year life cycle.

That said its not the end of the world - GW has a lot of options in the bag and lets also not forget this was a pretty harsh and hard re-set on game and model content as GW brings the same into line with "no models no rules" policies.

Having had conversations with several retailers, GW holds a special place in their heart for being bonkers to deal with. From the poor relationship between what you order and what turns up to how invoicing doesn't work. If it didn't sell well they would drop it due to the amount of friction and time it generates and consumes. And this is a relaunch when large numbers of other HH sets are out of stock so if you want to push the game its hard.

What baffles them is this is a vertically integrated supplier. They don't seem to get the responsiveness and control of a manufacturer that is only dependent on outside sources for boxes - and those can often be bypassed by using the generic box they have for direct sales. There ordering process seems as independent of their supply and storage system as a supplier sourcing products from a different manufacturing company.

Nobody is saying GW is dead or that HH is dead because this seemingly hasn't sold well.

If HH can go the better part of decade being the red headed stepchild from Forge World, it can survive a bad edition from GW.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

What baffles them is this is a vertically integrated supplier. They don't seem to get the responsiveness and control of a manufacturer that is only dependent on outside sources for boxes - and those can often be bypassed by using the generic box they have for direct sales. There ordering process seems as independent of their supply and storage system as a supplier sourcing products from a different manufacturing company.

There's several things going on though

1) GW's manufacture end is overloaded. They literally can't cast enough for market demand and this is after they just finished a brand new factory that was supposed to solve production issues for several years. Pandemic broke years of GW's previous metrics

2) Cost of Living Crisis grows month by month and again messes with sales and metrics. For some it means cutting back for others it means shifting priorities.

3) No Models No Rules in one go. 40K had this policy roll out steadily over a few editions. So whilst each time it hit there were grumbles it was spread out over different armies one by one. HH is getting it in one go, which gets it over and done with but also means every existing customer got hit hard. Which is enough to dull the hype machine

4) It's more marines for the game that's full of marines. It could be Marine Burn-Out since this launch set is basically 1 army. No SA nor Mechanicum and no expansion of a new faction like Demons of Ruinstorm or even a new Imperial one like Sisters of Silence.


Couple the last two together and some existing fans might just be "cooled" enough to stick with what they've got and not jump on the launch box so fast.

 Gert wrote:

I've picked it up after seeing the kits in the wild with the 35% off but I'm selling the rules, the turret, and the Saturnine units. Unsure about the dread yet but it might go on Ye Olde Ebay as well.

It’s funny, but the biggest issue for me is the turret. It just seems really lame. A new vehicle would have really lifted the whole thing for me. I bought the boxed set in spite of the turret, not because of it.

I watched two guys stumble through the rules yesterday. Saturine vs. Saturine.

TBH. Not the most exciting game. But the models looked cool on the tabletop.

I think the problem is the box is somehow too specific and too generic at the same time.

The Saturnine component is too specific a design taste for too many people (maximum marmite if you would). They aren't in the vein of traditional Terminators unlike Cataphractii or Tartaros and they're very obviously an attempt to hit a point of nostalgia without realising there isn't actually any real nostalgia associated with what we are now calling Saturnine.

The flip side is the Mk2 and turret are bland additions to the range. Mk2 is just another armour which is cool but by this point we've had Mk4, Mk3, Mk6 and Mk3 again so the chances of people needing generic additions to an army are pretty slim. The turret is just weird, very weird. A good thing to add to the range but not something that should be in a launch box.

I got two of the boxes, as I’m mad for Dreadnoughts, intend to use MkII Armour to delineate Veteran Units from my Regular Spod MkVI*. Saturnine Terminators aren’t to everyone’s tastes, but I like them well enough. Nice shooty unit.

Turret is…fine I guess? But still seriously considering using both as terrain. All smashed and shot up. Characters are just welcome as I hate working with resin.

But let’s compare it to the AoD Box.

There? You didn’t just get a small armies worth of models, but models which looked and felt like a small army. Plenty infantry, couple of commanders, Cataphractii as the elite soldiery, then a Dread and Honking Big Tank in support.

Saturnine still provides a swathe of models, and can be made to work as a single army. But the cohesive feel just isn’t there. And other than the MkII Maureens? Nothing I’m especially keen on having more than a couple of examples of.

*MkIII or MkIV would’ve done. But here’s a fat old discount and some other models I’d field (again, barring the Turrets), and so here we are.

As for the rest of it?

We know from the Rumour thread that Wayland over ordered, hence their deeper than usual discount. Darksphere and…I think it was Alchemist followed suit. But there we don’t know it wasn’t just Price Matching to retain their own pre-orders, rather than lose them to competition. Notably, others such as Element, Firestorm and Goblin Gaming did not.

Aaaaaaand…that’s all we know for certain. But that’s not stopped certain folk from jumping to their old standpoint that GW are bad and evil and incompetent and any day now they’re going to collapse and there’ll be much rejoicing and then like a much better game will come along and everyone will love it and that person will be lauded as some kind of saint of something and everyone will bow down and kiss their butt.

 Snord wrote:

It’s funny, but the biggest issue for me is the turret. It just seems really lame. A new vehicle would have really lifted the whole thing for me. I bought the boxed set in spite of the turret, not because of it.

It's no Spartan, that's for sure.

Imagine how much better the box would be with a plastic Javelin, or Sabre, or, heck, an Arquitor, that would still keep the siege vibe and not be a unit that's both unexciting on its own merit and annoying for being another retcon.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I watched two guys stumble through the rules yesterday. Saturine vs. Saturine.

TBH. Not the most exciting game. But the models looked cool on the tabletop.

Eh if it was their first match with the new rules then those are normally rough no matter the rules system unless its snakes-and-ladders simple.

They honestly don't make for good videos since both players are unsure and humming and harring and checking rules and they rarely flow well.

Better to play a bunch of games and have a slick easy moving game cause you're familiar with the material.

It’ll take a good few games for people to settle in.

The main difference I expect to see is now Heavy doesn’t mean Move Or Fire (or snapshot fire only), games may be more fluid.

Yes, I’ll typically want a nice, stable firing position, ideally up high with as wide a LoS as I can manage. But the trade off for redeploying Heavy units is much reduced.

For instance, a 10 man Lascannon Support Squad. Even if they move, and so have D1? They still have a good chance of popping anything up to a Predator, especially if I can use my new found ability to move around to wangle side or rear shots.

Tactical Statuses are also something people will need to get a feel for. Is it worth speccing into them in the name of control? Right now, I don’t know. Again, it’ll take a few games to get a real feel for it, and how it may benefit or interfere with the scoring of objectives.

And this may well rankle long term experienced players, as they find an old reliable army configuration no longer quite does the job. Now, if like me you’ve already a wide selection of units which is only getting wider? Less harm done. But there will be those who through choice or economic necessity don’t have much more than their usual army collection wise. So the question is How Big Is That Impact? Again, gonna take a few games to figure that one out, and it’s likely to vary player to player.

I've watched a couple of SN battle reports (they said they'd been using the 3rd Edition rules for several practice games), and a couple that Tabletop Tactics did because their in-house painter is a secret Heresy fan, and Pardo from SN came to visit. My impression is that there is more movement and vehicles are more fun (but still die fast). They seemed to gloss over melee and challenges a bit - I suspect it's a bit clunkier now. Having initially been okay with the revised list building, I think it's too cumbersome and rather irritating.

I have seen some heavy-handed doomsaying on Youtube - this edition has been pronounced to be a failure. I agree with Mad Doc that it's too soon to say for sure, but I am certainly prepared to believe that it hasn't sold as well as they'd hoped.

 Snord wrote:
I have seen some heavy-handed doomsaying on Youtube - this edition has been pronounced to be a failure.

The algorithm experience has been wild for this release, after cramming all the big name shills down my throat, youtube suddenly switched to feeding me obscure 1k sub channels pronouncing HH dead, yea.

If Dominion didnt kill AOS, Saturnine wont kill HH either. Doom mongering claims of a dead HH edition are just vapid engagement bait

The difference between AoS and HH here is simply that previous Editions of AoS were not good enough so that anyone really liked to stick to the old one instead of upgrading to the new version of the rules
But with HH, if your existing armies don't work or exist in 3rd and/or a gaming group liked the 2nd Edi rules, there is no reason to switch as it is not a straight upgrade but a new game
and there are not really a lot of new units coming that need the 3rd Edi core rules to work instead of just using adapted profiles for 2nd, so new players buying the box aren't really forced into the new Edition either if a group decides to stick with 2nd.

 Overread wrote:

1) GW's manufacture end is overloaded. They literally can't cast enough for market demand and this is after they just finished a brand new factory that was supposed to solve production issues for several years. Pandemic broke years of GW's previous metrics

this is an intresting problem, because GW isn't able to fullfil the demand since they exist, like the necessary units were always sold out and hard to get, even back during 5th Edition fantasy
yet any investment into ways to increase supply was "countered" by increasing the number of new units/boxes at a higher rate

having a 4th factory now doesn't increase the stock but rather increases the amount of different units
like they had 3 factories and 11 games, they decided to get a 4th factory and added 2 more games that need supply
as long as new stuff is coming up, be it new games or additional factions for existing games, the supply issue won't change

Yep GW's problem with stocking is basically linked to their success in the market at continuing to grow and growing faster than their manufacture growth. Which arguably is a good position for them. It means they aren't over-investing in their infrastructure and leaving themselves with machines and staff in excess.

They also have the boon that the majority of their products have a long shelf life. Heck Old World is bringing back models that are 40 years old - older than many of their actual customers.
So if something is out of production or out of stock for a long period its still worth bringing back into production.

If I had to guess it's a few factors.

1. the boxes contents just aren't as universal as AOD.Everyone could rock a landraider, some termies, troops and a contemptor. It's a great bedrock army. A turret, some weird saturine termies and a new type of dred? I dunno, they're all great for some legions, but my 3rd legion just look at them and go, nah too chunky. They don't vibe.

2. Yeah the rules are a bit up in the air. Very divisive. Part of our group is less interested, part is interested. ESPECIALLY with some of the datasheet decisions. So that's gonna drop sales I imagine.

3. AOD and 2nd edition did pretty damn well, so certainly GW may have overproduced and now have too much stock left over. I remember I did pick up Demon Fulgrim for 30% off nearly right after he was released.

Also worth remembering that AoD 2.0 launch sold well, because it was still a time when 30K kits were promoted also to 40K players. "YoU cAn ToTaLlY uSe YoUr Hh MoDeLs In 40K!!!111" waas a thing.. until it suddenly wasnt. If the bean counters dont account for this significant paradigm shift, they'll be overproducing HH 3.0 launch stuff for sure

As everybody knows, I bought an entire 40K army's worth of HH kits, with the plans on using em for 40K.. until GW forced my hand into playing only with legacy editions of 40K. I dont think I'm the only one..

I'd be cautious on saying that was a major factor in that box doing well.
Nostalgia, good monetary value, and new rules after 7ish years will have been the three pillars on that front.

Membership in Heresy groups increased, posting on Heresy forums increased, I never really saw more than the odd person say "doing this for 40k".

I spent a good couple of thousand at least on HH 2nd Edition, due to the mass plasticification. Probably more to be honest.

Cheaper than resin prices aside? Plastic is my preferred material. I’ll go resin for character models when I can’t easily convert, but that’s about it.

And so the spending floodgate was opened. Whilst I don’t want to claim any majority or owt? I don’t think I’d have been alone in that.

3rd Edition? Thus far I’ve got two big boxes, four Libers and the Isstvan book.

Arguably also six boxes of Rapiers (three of each) which I bought in the full knowledge a new edition was coming. But not as a result of a new edition coming.

I have both the original and the new Saturnine boxes. I've assembled nothing.

Can I just assemble everything as Imperial Fists and just paint everything yellow? I don't see any reason why not.

Anyone know how tall a Saturine Dread is compared to a GK Dreadknight?

about the same size, already been several conversions around to use that model for GK

This baby carrier goes from 0 to 11

 kodos wrote:
about the same size, already been several conversions around to use that model for GK

I've heard, but haven't seen it all put together.