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I don't think you can really compare Chicago gangesters to hive gangers though.

Being 40k, those gangers are basically child soldiers fighting since very young and are involved in endless warfare with no end in sight inside the hives.

so you can argue that by the time they're 20, they are actually quite skilled at the particulars of hive warfare and probably not bad shots at all.

Now that won't necessarily translate to regimented order following that the guard requests, but it does mean they won't be weekend warriors like reservists.

A smart general would use them to their strengths, ie as dispersed scouting formations moving through enemy hives, rather than marching them across no man's land.

IMO then you'd see them as scouting units rather than battleline.

Another thing which might factor in is House Rivalries - if we use the relative extremes of the Necromunda Clan Houses as a template.

How do you train Guardsmen drawn from multiple Houses to work in concert? Rivalry between squads and companies can be a healthy thing. But it can also be detrimental should one upping each other override other considerations.

If the training to Guard Specification is done right? You might well have a force than can punch above its weight. Not only do you have experienced dirty fighters, but ones not unused to deprivation and hardship.

It’s also interesting to consider that different Hive Worlds may instil different tactics.

As Hellebore said? Gangers turned Guardsmen could make superb almost commando type troops. But another world may see Guard Recruitment as a way to palm off its headbangers, training what isn’t far from a Penal Batallion from the get go.

The Ian Watson Space Marine novel is gangers recruited from rival gangs going through training and deployment together. The Guard isn't the same as the Space Marines, but I don't think that should matter much. If either institution is commonly drawing on rival gangs they'll have developed ways to enforce discipline and get cadets into the mental state they require.

Tyel wrote:
I find the idea that you could recruit gangsters from the 1930s - or indeed today - and they'd somehow represent crack regiments in WW2 or today a bit silly.

In terms of average ability, its basically an issue of training - both time and budget.

I assume that the IG uses some version of the ASVAB - the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. Every potential inductee into the US military takes this test to determine what they know, and what they might learn. Some career fields have low requirements, while others are quite high.

Depending on the gang, it might only be suitable for meat shields, but those with a tech or mechanical focus, would be routed into those career fields.

Let us pause and recall that logistics decide the outcome of wars. For every trigger-puller at the front, there are lots of people fabricating the weapons, the ammunition, and seeing those supplies get where they need to be.

Thus: scrounger types might have very useful skills that would keep them away from the front lines and lead to productive careers.

We tend to think of the PBI as taking most of the hits, but for a while, the career field in Iraq that took the must casualties was truck drivers due to the IEDs. Food for thought.

I can see hive gangs coming to "arrangements" with judges about how a certain number of accessions would be arranged in exchange for looking the other way on certain matters. That way the planet meets its quota without using too much conscription, and the most volatile of the gangers are sent offworld for someone else to deal with.

Most gangers won't know how terrible the guard can be. Media reports on the conditions at the front would not be common, or exist at all. The recruiters can promise lots. The truth may be different.

Doesn't the guard generally recruit/conscript from PDF anyway?

The old stock guard regiment was (the spiders?) a necromunda gang that rose up (around 20,000 strong - so I guess in modern terms one of the minor houses like Goliath) and seized the interplanetary landing areas attempting to get offworld. The real army turned up, but once the leaders were executed and real officers were put in charge they were inducted into the guard wholesale.

I bet most prized gang fighter arent any better or possibly worse when their stash of home brewed combat stims wear off.

if the PDF are WS2, BS2 and the guard are WS3, BS3 and a space marine is WS4, BS4 - assuming the same gap in expertise at each increment, a trained guardsmen is exceptionally better in combat that a PDF grunt

This is an interesting discussion, but it has been my impression from my reading of the background that it is the duty of the Imperial Governor to provide the Adeptus Terra with fully-trainined troops when that is what the Imperial Tithe requires. They are not sending just bodies, but actual units of trained soldiers, at times with the materials (those Rough Rider horses are part of the Tithe for Rough Rider Companies) necessary to fight depending upon the world's resources.

Often, this means they are sending the best of their PDF units to ensure the Adeptus Terra is happy with the quality of their Tithe, unless those units do not meet the tithe requirement. If the Adeptus Terra expects you to send them a Tank Battalion, your best Infantry are not what you send.

So no matter what your population may be, you need to recruit and train them yourself before they get sent off-world. Failure to provide the expect quantity or quality of troops is a deadly serious matter in the Imperium of Man.

It still depends.

An Agri-World is going to have very different recruits compared to a Primitive World, Death World, Medieval World or Hive World.

Very, very broadly speaking? The Guard will find a use for each and every recruit, even if it is Bullet Catching Duty.

But just as Death World recruits are highly valued, and not subject to standardisation? Surely the same would go for Gang Origin Recruits.

In both instances they’re proven fighters and, importantly, survivors.

Cadia, Mordia et all might well churn out impeccably drilled and disciplined warriors. But that doesn’t mean you still don’t want regiments of absolute bastards with a near instinct for dirty fighting.

I dare say that like Catachan Regiments they’re ill placed as standard line units. Too wild, too fighty, too rambunctious to be your anchor.

But there’s still a solid place in the overall mechanism for independently minded *absolute loonies*. Those used to scraping up rations from things most wouldn’t even think of, let alone be able to stomach.

After all? This is the Imperial Guard. The Martyr Machine. So long as you do your job and at the very least keep the enemy off balance and/or distracted? You play an important role.

 alextroy wrote:
Failure to provide the expect quantity or quality of troops is a deadly serious matter in the Imperium of Man.

The quality bit is what always sticks for me because it's impossible to define beyond "Can shoot a lasgun and get above the required points on the board" (that's from Gaunt's Ghosts).

There is no requirement for a Governor to send their "best" PDF troops; they just need to send a Regiment that hits the bottom line. There are a bunch of stories where a Regiment is good on paper, then either gets wiped out in their first engagement or breaks at first contact.
Even then, the Imperium doesn't necessarily care if a Regiment gets wiped out the first time around. In Catachan Devil, a newly raised Regiment is wiped out by Orks, but because they stood their ground and died to the last soldier (because they literally had no choice), the Planetary Governor declares them noble heroes and recommends their homeworld raise even more Regiments (the implication being every new Regiment will heroically stand against the foe).

mrFickle wrote:

if the PDF are WS2, BS2 and the guard are WS3, BS3 and a space marine is WS4, BS4 - assuming the same gap in expertise at each increment, a trained guardsmen is exceptionally better in combat that a PDF grunt

I wouldn't read into the game rules too far, it's a very narrow range used to represent a lot. Going by the fluff SMs should be WS and BS5.

I have to say I've morphed into a curmudgeon since my early 40k days - read enough fiction and spectate a profitable IP long enough and eventually the answer to any fun question is "whatever the writers wanted or needed at the time" or "whatever will make money and project an image the owners want"

A bit like debating Bretonnia in WFB - is it a super noble and aspirational version of 100 years war grail land, or is it a super grim the-peasants-all-die-and-the-lords-are-corrupt-anyway version? Because the lore says both over 40 years.

 Gert wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Failure to provide the expect quantity or quality of troops is a deadly serious matter in the Imperium of Man.

The quality bit is what always sticks for me because it's impossible to define beyond "Can shoot a lasgun and get above the required points on the board" (that's from Gaunt's Ghosts).

There is no requirement for a Governor to send their "best" PDF troops; they just need to send a Regiment that hits the bottom line. There are a bunch of stories where a Regiment is good on paper, then either gets wiped out in their first engagement or breaks at first contact.
Even then, the Imperium doesn't necessarily care if a Regiment gets wiped out the first time around. In Catachan Devil, a newly raised Regiment is wiped out by Orks, but because they stood their ground and died to the last soldier (because they literally had no choice), the Planetary Governor declares them noble heroes and recommends their homeworld raise even more Regiments (the implication being every new Regiment will heroically stand against the foe).

With all things in the Imperium of Man, it is a matter of expectation and reports. If they require level A and you send level B, you damn well better hope the report doesn't come back noting they failed to perform to expectation. Hell, you can send level A when they expect level B and be damned if the report says they only performed to level C.

The important thing is every world is not expected to send the same thing, but they are expected to perform to that level. Your Catachan Regiment is expected to perform to the Catachan levy standard, whatever that is. Woe to the governor if they are reported to perform less than that standard. It is also possible that your backwater world is expect to provide warm bodies that will be trained how to use a Lasgun once delivered, but they better be of sufficient physical and mental quality to take to the training that comes. Failure is not an option!

Not sure how gangers would fit in the Imperial levy standards. Are the Underhive Gangs of Necormonda a one-world example or a common template amongst the Imperium Hiveworlds? That would be the deciding factor. Otherwise, Necromonda is just expected to provide "Imperial Guard regiments" and they use whatever they deem fit to meet the standard.

I think it's in salvation squad novel where gangers are conscripted and do their things in not the best way. Iirc they are all die...

I think it's important to keep in mind that the vast majority of any army will not see combat. We focus on the teeth, but the tail is very important and if you are fighting across the vastness of space, huge amounts of personnel are needed to move all those blankets, biscuits and bullets. It is also the case that troops would be moved to a threatened sector, only for the threat to fade. I can't count the times I was put on a deployment alert that never materialized. Obviously the situations are different, but I did a full career during wartime without ever 'seeing the elephant' and I am far from unique. For much of that time recruiting was a struggle and resources were stretched relatively tight. Both of my grandfathers served during WW II, and the only one to see combat was a navigator on a transport aircraft whose pilot tried to land on an enemy airfield by mistake and veered off when they started shooting. (Pea soup over the Channel can get one turned around and there was no GPS.)

It's also important not to get hung up on factoids that contract writers spew about life expectancies, because according to that logic, no one lived through World War I, when in fact the vast majority of troops who enlisted made it out on the other side.

While the Imperial Guard is often compared to the Red Army, it's not entirely apt because the scope is so much larger and the technology spread is so much greater. Yet even within the Red Army, you had quite a variety of specialist troops and equipment, and the Soviets knew that troops from certain regions were better at certain things.

The Imperial war machine would have developed templates and SOPs for this sort of thing, and part of the levy and mobilization process would include dedicating lines of effort for the various planets. The Art of War for the Imperium is how these different forces are grouped together and used to best advantage, because while the IG is often described as being sharp as a hammer, in fact other writing indicates a great deal of skill in facing opponents that are almost always superior on an individual basis and therefore require more than just mobs of fresh meat to slow them down.

And indeed, the Soviets had a pretty sophisticated operational art by the end of the war. The Imperium has had thousands of years to sort things out.

Regarding stats, the (allegedly) low stats for PDF units can have two sources. On the one hand, they could be indifferently trained and equipped, particularly if there aren't active threats present. But since there is ONLY WAR, I'd suggest that the raw recruits get sent there, and may in fact be what we consider under age (16) and are undergoing initial training and familiziarization before being sent offworld. They could also be something of a Home Guard of people whose number did not come up in the draft lottery, but who still have an obligation.

I don't know the current state of the game, but in 2nd veteran IG troops were quite good, with the obvious implication that not everyone engaged died within seconds.

There's also the fact that everyone would be screened at induction, and a lot of hive rats would probably have decent tech skills and be slotted to work on fire controls or tabulate rations rather than stop ork bullets.

Eh an Imperial army that is defeated on the battlefield is expected to either be annihilated or taken as prisoners and never seen again.

It is very different from modern wars in which POWs ultimately are expected to be kept alive and eventually released.

Armageddon has also seen Hive Militias formed.

Whilst perhaps not exactly a match for Orks? They still took a toll. Fighting on their home turf is a big advantage, and their more hodge podge and varying levels of armament must surely be a problem for an attacker. After all, you more or less can make an educated guess as to what an Imperial Guard Regiment might be packing. But Hive Gangs? Could be small arms, like pistols only. But then, could be some real nutters with Plasma, Melta, Lascannons and all sorts.

I’d imagine they make for surprisingly, unexpectedly competent counter commando units. Hard to stealthily infiltrate a Hive City when there are hardened scrappers, who know their turf intimately, and have a lifetime of combat experience exploiting its nooks and crannies.

So whilst they’d fold like a cheap suit against a Greentide? Kommandos and similar infiltration units may well struggle to make decent headway.

 Tyran wrote:
Eh an Imperial army that is defeated on the battlefield is expected to either be annihilated or taken as prisoners and never seen again.

It is very different from modern wars in which POWs ultimately are expected to be kept alive and eventually released.

Much of 40k combat is attritional. Units are rotated in and rotated out. The IG would be experts at this, indeed the Imperium as a whole has its doctrine based on rapid intervention by Space Marines or other elite elements who are then relieved by units with vastly more manpower - and staying power. No one fights a chapter to the death unless it's defending its home base.

Obviously, there are cases where breakthroughs or encirclements happen, but the general rule would be to cycle through IG regiments until they are drawn down, then pull them out, plus them up with replacements (or amalgamate with regiments from the same world/culture) and plug them back in. Fighting a unit until is is completely used up is pretty much without historical precedent unless they are surrounded.

"Defeat" is a relative term. Armies get pushed back, reinforcements arrive, and counterattacks begin. Yes, if the planet is overrun and the enemy has total space dominance, that's the end of it, but if possible troops will be evacuated to fight for another day, and for their cadre to serve as the nucleus for new formations.

Retreats have been part of the lore since early times. One story is when one of the evacuating transports is destroyed the Necromunda 8th (The Spyders) turns around and fights to the death so that there is time and space for the other Regiments to evacuate.

Seems like time for a timely reminder that the Imperial Guard isn’t as monolithic as first glance suggests.

Yes, there are Generals who’ll expend as many bodies and as much blood as the mission takes, utterly heedless of losses. For instance, on Captain Chenkov of Valhalla.

But there are also those who are far more cautious and careful with their resources. Those who’ll take careful stock of those forces available to them, and assess how best to deploy each element to maximum effect, based on their current knowledge of the enemy’s disposition.

Sure, when a situation calls for the supreme sacrifice? It’s a very, very rare Commander that would baulk for even a second before ordering who knows how many Guardsmen to their deaths,

There does seem to be some capacity for an overall Commander to request specific Regiments/Assets be made available to them. But generally? You get whatever is in the local area, and it’s on you to wield that toward outright victory. And how you go about that is more or less your decision.

If strategic withdrawals from a given area bring victory? Nobody cares much. And if it enables you to preserve men and matériels for a subsequent push elsewhere (or even to retake that ground) then it’s entirely justified.

As the old, in-universe adage has it? Defeat has no excuse, victory requires none.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Armageddon has also seen Hive Militias formed.

*snip* But Hive Gangs? Could be small arms, like pistols only. But then, could be some real nutters with Plasma, Melta, Lascannons and all sorts.

I believe there was a note somewhere highlighting Necromunda featured more heavily armed gangers due tot he manufacture of weapons on the planet, with most gangs on imperial industrial worlds have slug throwing weapons which you can essentially make yourself with the tech available. Of course that might be old hat now and gangs are routinely armed with more special weapons than a guard company.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

There does seem to be some capacity for an overall Commander to request specific Regiments/Assets be made available to them. But generally? You get whatever is in the local area, and it’s on you to wield that toward outright victory. And how you go about that is more or less your decision.

The problem is that a Commander doesn't have that many tools to asses their forces, as regiments aren't really made up to a well defined standard but rather what any given world believes they can get away with it.
That means that in practice Imperial commanders are more likely to use the IG as a blunt instrument as they have no idea if they can use fancier strategies with their troops (unless they have managed to requisition specific specialized regiments).

The Tithe is monitored by the Munitorum. If quality or quantity is insufficient Imperial forces might be side-lined replacing a Governor.

The Regiments are supposed to be similar in combat value. Not infantry regiment compared to Armour regiment, but Infantry regiment compared to Infantry regiment. With less equipped or less trained regiments being larger to make up the difference.

The Munitorums job is to organise and lead (above Regiment level) the Guard. They are Generals, General staff, and all the non-combat support forces.

Generals aren't drawn from the Munitorum, they're Guard. Political animals? Absolutely, its the nature of the beast for the higher ranking officers to make connections and "friends" but at one point in their career they would have been commanding troops on the line.

Its why the likes of Lugo from the Ghosts books aren't well liked because they're overly political and involved with non-Guard institutions but their authority is still respected and obeyed because they were once just like the officers they now command.

 Tyran wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

There does seem to be some capacity for an overall Commander to request specific Regiments/Assets be made available to them. But generally? You get whatever is in the local area, and it’s on you to wield that toward outright victory. And how you go about that is more or less your decision.

The problem is that a Commander doesn't have that many tools to asses their forces, as regiments aren't really made up to a well defined standard but rather what any given world believes they can get away with it.
That means that in practice Imperial commanders are more likely to use the IG as a blunt instrument as they have no idea if they can use fancier strategies with their troops (unless they have managed to requisition specific specialized regiments).

This is where the overall hierarchy kicks in.

The Regimental command won’t necessarily have a choice in where and how they’re deployed. But there is expectation that the High Command will listen when a given Regiment claims a certain specialisation, and work all that in. Where appropriate of course. You may well be Jungle Fighters from Catachan. But if the war is on a Hive World pretty much devoid of flora? You’re just not going to get your preferred combat environment.

We see some of this in a Cain novel. Temperate, Earth like world. The Tallarns are deployed to the desert region, where they’re the best trained and suited. The Valhallans take the more urban areas. Not exactly their ideal circumstance, but still the best use of those two regiments in that specific theatre.

A Gang raised regiment is likely to do well in an urban environment, and do notably well in an actual Hive. It may well not be their home hive, no. But they’re likely to be the right folk to exploit that environment to best effect.

Of course, they’d need excellent disicipline not to start on the Chems and other fun bounty Underhive life offers.

I think whether the IG are permitted to retreat would be primarily dependent on whether transportation was being made available for them. If a planet (or large part of a planet) is in the process of falling to the enemy there could be a hell of a lot of stuff that the Imperium considers more valuable than IG infantry. Nobles, officials, techpriests, rare machinery or minerals, and not nearly enough space on the ships to hold it all.

In those scenarios it would make sense to have the IG hold the line for as long as possible while the more valuable stuff is evacuated. (Maybe the officers and commissars would still be evacuated at the last minute, or maybe they would just be told that until it's too late.)

 Dysartes wrote:
You must be mistaken, Doc - there's only three types of Imperial Guard nowadays. Those with a Catachan heritage, those with a Cadian heritage, and those with a Krieg heritage.

Ignore the fact there have been sculpts in a different material for around another half-dozen or so over the years. /sarcasm

Hold on now, there are plenty of regiments out there. It just so happen that they use the same equipment as Cadia.

Both kinda right

Certainly the Cadian Regiments we’re told rely on standard Munitorum issue.

As do some of the others. But, for Regiments from single weather worlds, such as Tallarn or Valhalla? They have their own native harsh weather gear as well, worn when conditions require it. Otherwise, it’s the old standard stuff.

So one could use the Cadian Models and perhaps a modified colour palette to represent more exotic regiments in the standardised gear.