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I'm reorganizing some of my armies. These are armies that haven't seen a tabletop in more than a decade. Now, most of my "old marines" from my Space Wolf army fit quite nicely into current rules, but I have a number of stragglers. I have Cyberwolves, and yes I know they are Legends, but my most common opponent doesn't like Legends. So, I thought about throwing them into a unit of Headtakers. Dumping out my bits box I think I can hodge-podge the Marines that go with the wolves, but the weapons won't 100% match. I found a left handed sword, right handed sword, and two sets of lightning claws. Now, as far as I'm aware, in this edition paired lightning claws are basically the same, rules wise, as paired power weapons. Would anyone throw a fit over this?

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm reorganizing some of my armies. These are armies that haven't seen a tabletop in more than a decade. Now, most of my "old marines" from my Space Wolf army fit quite nicely into current rules, but I have a number of stragglers. I have Cyberwolves, and yes I know they are Legends, but my most common opponent doesn't like Legends. So, I thought about throwing them into a unit of Headtakers. Dumping out my bits box I think I can hodge-podge the Marines that go with the wolves, but the weapons won't 100% match. I found a left handed sword, right handed sword, and two sets of lightning claws. Now, as far as I'm aware, in this edition paired lightning claws are basically the same, rules wise, as paired power weapons. Would anyone throw a fit over this?

I wouldn't. I mean, given the data sheet, what else would they be other than paired power weapons?
But since you're trying to appease a specific opponent you should just ask them.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I have Cyberwolves, and yes I know they are Legends, but my most common opponent doesn't like Legends.

Why don't they like Legends?

Have you considered asking them to grow up?

 Dysartes wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I have Cyberwolves, and yes I know they are Legends, but my most common opponent doesn't like Legends.

Why don't they like Legends?

Have you considered asking them to grow up?

I'm sure that would be a great way to get them to change their mind. /s

For your Headtakers, I'd have zero issues with Lightning Claws on one of them. The main thing is you'd need to differentiate between Sword And Board vs. Two Weapons, and that does so fine.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I have Cyberwolves, and yes I know they are Legends, but my most common opponent doesn't like Legends.

Why don't they like Legends?

Have you considered asking them to grow up?

I'm sure that would be a great way to get them to change their mind. /s

They're objecting to rules provided by the writers of the game, which are explicitly part of the game unless excluded from a tournament. We don't know the reason why that person is objecting to them, but the odds are slim on them having a good reason.

And we're talking Cyberwolves here - a character that can only attach to a Fenrisian Wolf unit, and which gives them the Scout ability. Hardly game-breaking, at 20 points, given that's adding 50% to the cost of a min unit or 25% to the cost of a max unit of wolves. This isn't a rational objection.

I agree that Legends shouldn’t be an issue.

But being condescending to someone is not a good way to get them to change their mind.

No normal person would throw a fit over that. Though you may want to try and have the correct sized base on them. I personally wouldn't care but I think some would

There term normal seem to be used here. When there are whole regions of the world, where no one plays with legends. Regions far large then a city, store or even a country. With regular games being more or less tournament games (same missions, same terrain, same rules etc) just without a tournament, the "no to legends" is far less "not normal" thing, that some could think.

 Dysartes wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I have Cyberwolves, and yes I know they are Legends, but my most common opponent doesn't like Legends.

Why don't they like Legends?

My guess is - just off the top of my head - the fact that Legends don't get the same balance attention as codex units. Underpriced Legends will not get a price increase. Overpowered legends do not get a balance pass. Neither will overpriced or underpowered units.

Have you considered asking them to grow up?

Someone who doesn't want less managed balance or you telling those people to grow up: Who sounds like the child here?

Are overpowered legends units common?

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

More common than a balance pass.

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

Not to my knowledge. And not egregiously so when they are, generally speaking.

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

More common than a balance pass.

Show us an overpowered Legends unit.

ccs wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

More common than a balance pass.

Show us an overpowered Legends unit.

Funnily, two very common Adepta Soroirtas Legend units (that started as part of the army and were frequently seen at the start of 10th): Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins (infiltrators and lone op). I think they even had a points nerf because of how strong they were. Mind you, they are cheap miracle dices. Aveline is a cheap Lone Operative that can do some damage, for only 45 points, something sisters cant easily access.

Minka Lesk unit, Hell's Last from Imperial Guard, is useful in a melee cadian block with Ogryn Bodyguard. Gives full reroll hits, very useful for the guard that cannot otherwise access to it by normal means. Not great, but its useful and decently priced. Why that unit went straight to Legends while so much Space Marine stuff gets away with it is a mystery to me, though.

"Iron Hand" Straken still has same rules as he used to before Codex, and 55 points still. He's an absolute unit and gives 2 orders. Full rerolls on charge, anti-monster 4+ and Lethals to his unit. I've played him against Tyranids and Death Guard and he's a menace and killed 5 plague marines on his own. Sgt Harker is a cheap 40pts order + premium Heavy Bolter with good aim, -1 to hit for his unit at long range.

Most of these were index datasheets that were moved to legends with Codex and remained unchanged, and could had perfectly been kept in the Codex, though

 Guillérmidas wrote:
Minka Lesk unit, Hell's Last from Imperial Guard, is useful in a melee cadian block with Ogryn Bodyguard. Gives full reroll hits, very useful for the guard that cannot otherwise access to it by normal means. Not great, but its useful and decently priced. Why that unit went straight to Legends while so much Space Marine stuff gets away with it is a mystery to me, though.

Most (all?) of the Black Library tie-in minis go straight to legends. Even Marine units.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Guillérmidas wrote:
Minka Lesk unit, Hell's Last from Imperial Guard, is useful in a melee cadian block with Ogryn Bodyguard. Gives full reroll hits, very useful for the guard that cannot otherwise access to it by normal means. Not great, but its useful and decently priced. Why that unit went straight to Legends while so much Space Marine stuff gets away with it is a mystery to me, though.

Most (all?) of the Black Library tie-in minis go straight to legends. Even Marine units.

Uriel Ventis (UM), Lukas the Trickster (SW) and Master Lazarus (DA) were all nobodies whose books didnt sell well and went to Codex. Lukas was moved to legends with Codex but used to be part of the main range. They are all 3 from subfactions with an absurd amount of special characters already.

Minka's books were sold pretty well, and will likely see more releases in the future. She's also the first time we see a character actually go from ground bottom and go up through the ranks, actual character progression in 40k which is refreshing. 2 models and both legends directly, while all unique characters from the guard were deleted, not even in legends. Only Catachads remain from old guard, for a time.

So, yeah, Im gonna disagree with you

 Guillérmidas wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Guillérmidas wrote:
Minka Lesk unit, Hell's Last from Imperial Guard, is useful in a melee cadian block with Ogryn Bodyguard. Gives full reroll hits, very useful for the guard that cannot otherwise access to it by normal means. Not great, but its useful and decently priced. Why that unit went straight to Legends while so much Space Marine stuff gets away with it is a mystery to me, though.

Most (all?) of the Black Library tie-in minis go straight to legends. Even Marine units.

Uriel Ventis (UM), Lukas the Trickster (SW) and Master Lazarus (DA) were all nobodies whose books didnt sell well and went to Codex. Lukas was moved to legends with Codex but used to be part of the main range. They are all 3 from subfactions with an absurd amount of special characters already.

Minka's books were sold pretty well, and will likely see more releases in the future. She's also the first time we see a character actually go from ground bottom and go up through the ranks, actual character progression in 40k which is refreshing. 2 models and both legends directly, while all unique characters from the guard were deleted, not even in legends. Only Catachads remain from old guard, for a time.

So, yeah, Im gonna disagree with you

Did those 3 start in legends and then move to the codex? Honest question. I know they have been with us for a while. I thought Lukas was from back in 5th.

How old are the Minka’s books? Has they been a new codex since they were released?

I know the UM captain with the TH was a straight to legends release, but thought there were more then that.

 Guillérmidas wrote:

ccs wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

More common than a balance pass.

Show us an overpowered Legends unit.

Funnily, two very common Adepta Soroirtas Legend units (that started as part of the army and were frequently seen at the start of 10th): Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins (infiltrators and lone op). I think they even had a points nerf because of how strong they were. Mind you, they are cheap miracle dices. Aveline is a cheap Lone Operative that can do some damage, for only 45 points, something sisters cant easily access.

Minka Lesk unit, Hell's Last from Imperial Guard, is useful in a melee cadian block with Ogryn Bodyguard. Gives full reroll hits, very useful for the guard that cannot otherwise access to it by normal means. Not great, but its useful and decently priced. Why that unit went straight to Legends while so much Space Marine stuff gets away with it is a mystery to me, though.

"Iron Hand" Straken still has same rules as he used to before Codex, and 55 points still. He's an absolute unit and gives 2 orders. Full rerolls on charge, anti-monster 4+ and Lethals to his unit. I've played him against Tyranids and Death Guard and he's a menace and killed 5 plague marines on his own. Sgt Harker is a cheap 40pts order + premium Heavy Bolter with good aim, -1 to hit for his unit at long range.

Most of these were index datasheets that were moved to legends with Codex and remained unchanged, and could had perfectly been kept in the Codex, though

You're idea of overpowered & mine are considerably different.

 Guillérmidas wrote:
Uriel Ventis (UM), Lukas the Trickster (SW) and Master Lazarus (DA) were all nobodies whose books didnt sell well and went to Codex. Lukas was moved to legends with Codex but used to be part of the main range. They are all 3 from subfactions with an absurd amount of special characters already.

I'm going to have to pull an "Erm, actually..." here - I'll grant you that Uriel Ventris and Master Lazarus aseither BL-first or dropped pretty much at the same time, but the same cannae be said for Lukas.

Lukas the Trickster first appears in the 5th edition Codex: Space Wolves (Source: Lexicanum), released in October 2009. The Lukas the Trickster Novel appears to have been released in August 2018 (Source: Lexicanum), a mere nearly 9 years later.

ccs wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

More common than a balance pass.

Show us an overpowered Legends unit.

Show me a Legends balance update.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Show us an overpowered Legends unit.

 Guillérmidas wrote:

Funnily, two very common Adepta Soroirtas Legend units (that started as part of the army and were frequently seen at the start of 10th): Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins (infiltrators and lone op). I think they even had a points nerf because of how strong they were. Mind you, they are cheap miracle dices. Aveline is a cheap Lone Operative that can do some damage, for only 45 points, something sisters cant easily access.

Minka Lesk unit, Hell's Last from Imperial Guard, is useful in a melee cadian block with Ogryn Bodyguard. Gives full reroll hits, very useful for the guard that cannot otherwise access to it by normal means. Not great, but its useful and decently priced. Why that unit went straight to Legends while so much Space Marine stuff gets away with it is a mystery to me, though.

"Iron Hand" Straken still has same rules as he used to before Codex, and 55 points still. He's an absolute unit and gives 2 orders. Full rerolls on charge, anti-monster 4+ and Lethals to his unit. I've played him against Tyranids and Death Guard and he's a menace and killed 5 plague marines on his own. Sgt Harker is a cheap 40pts order + premium Heavy Bolter with good aim, -1 to hit for his unit at long range.

Most of these were index datasheets that were moved to legends with Codex and remained unchanged, and could had perfectly been kept in the Codex, though

You're idea of overpowered & mine are considerably different.

Man, imagine a codex having access to full hit rerolls, Lone Op, Infiltrators…

ccs wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Are overpowered legends units common?

More common than a balance pass.

Show us an overpowered Legends unit.

Does the Leviathan Dreadnought count? It's nearly as good as a Redemptor and drastically cheaper.